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OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clements $?


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Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

This is ambiguous. Do we agree, or are you still agast at what I wrote?

PS: Nevermind, I get it now, but it doesn't matter anyway...sorry, man.

Yes, we agree. LOL. Sometimes communicating on message boards is difficult.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

It's not a matter of evidence. It's a matter of fairness.
No salary system can be completely fair. I hate to tell you this but life is not fair.

The NBA system would not work in the NFL because pretty much all NBA contracts are completely guaranteed and the average NBA career is probably much longer than the average NFL career.

I really think all your stats proved is that most players get their just desserts, rookies and vets alike. But there are UDFAs and the like out there who never hit the big payday, whle rookie busts make a lot more than them. No stat can address how unfair that is.

No system can ever address the fact that some players will never live up to their contract. No system is going to retroactively give player raises.

And lowering how much 240 or so rookies get paid is fairer???

I have no problem with what most rookies get paid. I mean, it's peanuts when you look at the 3rd and 4th rounders. What you've done is average the money from rounds 2 through 7 together with round 1, and that brings down the average considerably for the first rounders.

I specifically have a problem with the big first round contracts, especially at the top. In fact, I guarantee you that most NFL GMs dread those contracts because they know the odds are stacked against the teams shelling out that kind of dough.

And yet those GMs did not propose a rookie pay scale in the last CBA negotiations.

Why does Robert Gallery deserve all that money? While a UDFA will never make that kind of dough.

Let's say that the top 10 picks will have an average cap number of $3 million this year. That's a total of $30 million.You have a problem with how $30 million out of $3.556 billion (less than 1%) will be allocated. How is changing the system for 255 rookies when maybe 10 of them do not "deserve the money" that they get is fairer??To me, that is a bit extreme and I just do not see the NFLPA agreeing to do so when the current system is already lowering the percentage of the cap that rookies get AND when teams are using the LTBE move to use cap space up rather than on veterans. IF a vet is underpaid, it is not because of Robert Gallery. And lowering what the top picks gets will not automatically prevent vets from being underpaid.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Why would Rodney Harrison be upset at what Maroney made as a rookie last year when the Pats devoted over $4 million in 2006 cap space in separate LTBE moves??

He wouldn't. But Corey Dillon and Kevin Faulk should've been, back last summer.

Yes, in terms of cap percentage, rookies account for little. But instead of dividing the salary cap by 255 rookies, divide it by 32 first rounders and see if that changes the percentages.

The bigger issue is the contract, not the cap hit. Lawrence Maroney came into the league last year with much more money guaranteed than Corey Dillon had in his contract. A rookie vs. a Top 15 all-time yardage leader. JeMarcus Russell's guaranteed money in this contract is going to be more than all but 3-4 established quarterbacks contract calls for.

This is that "respect" issue that players like to throw around. I'm sure Asante Samuel isn't happy that Darrelle Revis might have a larger signing bonus than Samuel's entire contract value.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

No salary system can be completely fair. I hate to tell you this but life is not fair.

When you can make something more equitable, you try to do it. Saying life isn't fair is just an excuse. No one asked for completely fair. I don't know why we're generalizing like this.

The NBA system would not work in the NFL because pretty much all NBA contracts are completely guaranteed and the average NBA career is probably much longer than the average NFL career.

I never said the NFL should adopt the ENTIRE NBA system. I said they should adopt the same restrictions on free agency after the first contract. Big difference.


No system can ever address the fact that some players will never live up to their contract. No system is going to retroactively give player raises.

I'd say my suggestions do this a great deal better than the current system.

And lowering how much 240 or so rookies get paid is fairer???

It's like I'm repeating myself at this point. I said the first rounders. 32. Heck, baseball keeps guys in servitude for 6 years. All I'm saying is that the top draft choices earn say $1 million for 3 years before their next contract. Not too much to ask.

Let's say that the top 10 picks will have an average cap number of $3 million this year. That's a total of $30 million.You have a problem with how $30 million out of $3.556 billion (less than 1%) will be allocated.

Yes. It really doesn't matter to me that it's not a big part of the pie. I'm talking about the ludicrous fact that Gallery makes so much.

IF a vet is underpaid, it is not because of Robert Gallery. And lowering what the top picks gets will not automatically prevent vets from being underpaid.

Every NFL team has baggage from these first round contracts. There aren't many Rodney Harrisons out there either, UDFAs performing at a high level. I'd say there are just as many Gallery's out there as Harrisons.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

All I'm saying is that the top draft choices earn say $1 million for 3 years before their next contract. Not too much to ask..
I think that it is. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

When you can make something more equitable, you try to do it. Saying life isn't fair is just an excuse. No one asked for completely fair. I don't know why we're generalizing like this.



I never said the NFL should adopt the ENTIRE NBA system. I said they should adopt the same restrictions on free agency after the first contract. Big difference.




I'd say my suggestions do this a great deal better than the current system.



It's like I'm repeating myself at this point. I said the first rounders. 32. Heck, baseball keeps guys in servitude for 6 years. All I'm saying is that the top draft choices earn say $1 million for 3 years before their next contract. Not too much to ask.



Yes. It really doesn't matter to me that it's not a big part of the pie. I'm talking about the ludicrous fact that Gallery makes so much.



Every NFL team has baggage from these first round contracts. There aren't many Rodney Harrisons out there either, UDFAs performing at a high level. I'd say there are just as many Gallery's out there as Harrisons.

Fair is something that comes to your county in the summertime and gives out blue ribbons for pies.

No rule is necessary to regulate the money paid to first-round draft choices. The teams pay them on the expectation they can play. And their rookie deals aren't even stratospheric compared to the vets who strike it rich.

Yeah, it is weird. Especially the way a #1 #1 gets paid, compared to the guys down at the end where we usually draft. And no, nobody wants a rookie holdout situation... but if teams want to control those contracts, they have to fight the battle with the draft picks as they come in. Unfortunately, by the time a team is picking high in the first round, it is desperate and looks at its high draft pick in messianic terms. Look at the Maroney deal: less than 9M for 5 years (with much of that guaranteed, granted.) That's shy of 2M APY. A number 1 overall pick is another story, of course. But even Mario Williams' deal comes out to $20M and change (I think,) again, much of it in the form of a 12M bonus this year. Still, that's not the money a proven vet gets, even a halfway decent vet (not even a superstar), in free agency.

The teams are weighing risk and reward, and guaranteeing themselves that those blue-chip guys that really are blue-chip guys are actually cheap, in terms relative to the cost of the equivalent "proven" product. I do agree that bringing down that cost, if it is excessive in comparison to the value the players provide on average, may be appropriate. But the notion of enforcing a ceiling on these contracts strikes me as out of step with the free agency/salary cap era.

All you get when you "pick" a guy is exclusive negotiating rights. If he wants to play in the NFL, he still has to play for you.

So the question's not whether it's "fair," the question is whether your team gets decent return on investments come draft time. A team picking first over and over again obviously is not getting the ROI it would expect, and needs to look at its scouting and front office for solutions.

PFnV
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

F
No rule is necessary to regulate the money paid to first-round draft choices. The teams pay them on the expectation they can play. And their rookie deals aren't even stratospheric compared to the vets who strike it rich.

Huh?? There already are rules regulating the money paid to first-round draft choices. That's what we'r talking about.

But the notion of enforcing a ceiling on these contracts strikes me as out of step with the free agency/salary cap era.

There already is a ceiling. The rookie salary pool. You can't exceed it.

All the rookies are not going to hold out collectively It's just not going to happen. Only the union could engineer that sort of thing. Look at baseball, the players go through an apprenticeship program, and they don't complain, because entry level pay is so regulated.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Fair is something that comes to your county in the summertime and gives out blue ribbons for pies.

Nice. Or as they used to say in Phoenix, You want fair? Go to 19th and McDowell.
 
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Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Huh?? There already are rules regulating the money paid to first-round draft choices. That's what we'r talking about.



There already is a ceiling. The rookie salary pool. You can't exceed it.

All the rookies are not going to hold out collectively It's just not going to happen. Only the union could engineer that sort of thing. Look at baseball, the players go through an apprenticeship program, and they don't complain, because entry level pay is so regulated.

How regulated is the pay scale for MLB rookies, really? Guys like Drew Henson and Jeff Smardizja were not even drafted in the first round (3rd and 5th respectively) and yet they signed deals that paid them guaranteed double digit millions ($17M for Henson and $10M for Samardzija. And Henson was a total bust who barely made it out of AAA and was a MLB bust. In baseball guys play out of highschool, something a football player cannot do. The minor leagues are MLB's version of college, only you get paid at least a minimum stipend unless your contract stipulates a whole lot more.

And the NFL rookie pool doesn't in any way limit contracts. It merely limits a teams first year annual cap expense related to draft signings as a group. What those deals entail in years 2-4,5,6 is between the team and the player. And for that matter year 1 is only regulated to the extent if you overpay for your top picks you may not be able to sign your late round picks.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

How regulated is the pay scale for MLB rookies, really? Guys like Drew Henson and Jeff Smardizja were not even drafted in the first round (3rd and 5th respectively) and yet they signed deals that paid them guaranteed double digit millions ($17M for Henson and $10M for Samardzija. And Henson was a total bust who barely made it out of AAA and was a MLB bust. In baseball guys play out of highschool, something a football player cannot do. The minor leagues are MLB's version of college, only you get paid at least a minimum stipend unless your contract stipulates a whole lot more.

And the NFL rookie pool doesn't in any way limit contracts. It merely limits a teams first year annual cap expense related to draft signings as a group. What those deals entail in years 2-4,5,6 is between the team and the player. And for that matter year 1 is only regulated to the extent if you overpay for your top picks you may not be able to sign your late round picks.


Well, then it's regulated. There's a ceiling with the annual cap expense allotted to each team. The Patriots can't pay Brandon Merriweather $4 million a year even if they wanted to.

Look at guys like David Ortiz or Manny Delcarmen or John Lester in baseball. Their rights are restricted for many years, they get valled up constantly, they earn peanuts, and even when a guy wins rookie of the year or heck, Beckett won World Series MVP, they can't do anything about it because they aren't vested yet as major leaguers. I'm not talking about high school kids. I'm talking about players in their mid to late twenties.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

The more I read about the NBA soft cap at
http://www.insidehoops.com/salaries-rookies.shtml
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-collective-bargaining-agreement.shtml
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-salary-exceptions.shtml
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

The more I would like to hear how in specific terms not general terms ion how t would be tweaked to work in the NFL.

Here are some questions that I now have??

The NBA refers to "average salary".
How would that work in the NFL??
Would it be average salary for the entire NFL??
Would it be average salary for the players at the position??
Would it be average salary for the top 5 players at the position??

Why would the small-market teams agree to a soft cap???

What would the maximum qualifying offer look like in your system?? The NBA's maximum qualifying offer "is for six seasons at the maximum salary with 10.5% annual raises. It can contain no options, ETOs or bonuses of any kind, and must be fully guaranteed.".
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

And the NFL rookie pool doesn't in any way limit contracts. It merely limits a teams first year annual cap expense related to draft signings as a group. What those deals entail in years 2-4,5,6 is between the team and the player. And for that matter year 1 is only regulated to the extent if you overpay for your top picks you may not be able to sign your late round picks.

But since salary increases in rookie deals are limited, the size of the contract is indeed limited.

From the CBA:
"No Player Contract signed by a Rookie may provide for an annual increase in Salary of more than twenty-five percent (25%) of the contract’s first League Year Salary, unless such Player Contract provides for Salary which is equal to the then applicable Minimum Salary for each League Year of the contract. For the purposes of the calculation in this section only, any amount of a signing bonus attributed to the player’s Salary shall not be counted."
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

The more I read about the NBA soft cap at
http://www.insidehoops.com/salaries-rookies.shtml
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-collective-bargaining-agreement.shtml
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-salary-exceptions.shtml
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

The more I would like to hear how in specific terms not general terms ion how t would be tweaked to work in the NFL.

Here are some questions that I now have??

The NBA refers to "average salary".
How would that work in the NFL??
Would it be average salary for the entire NFL??
Would it be average salary for the players at the position??
Would it be average salary for the top 5 players at the position??

Why would the small-market teams agree to a soft cap???

What would the maximum qualifying offer look like in your system?? The NBA's maximum qualifying offer "is for six seasons at the maximum salary with 10.5% annual raises. It can contain no options, ETOs or bonuses of any kind, and must be fully guaranteed.".


Well, like I said, I wouldn't adopt the NBA's system at all. I took one provision from the NBA that I like a lot. Just one. That provision allows a team to sign its own drafted player to a higher amount than any other team can sign him (in other words, other teams will have to carry the entire value of the contract against their cap while the team that drafted the player gets some of the amount off the cap).

I'm not talking about salary slots like the NBA has, nor paying penalties, etc. for exceeding the cap. This provision merely rewards team that not only draft well, but all develop their teams well. It also allows for continuity within a system, rather than having players flop in new environments.
 
Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Well, like I said, I wouldn't adopt the NBA's system at all. I took one provision from the NBA that I like a lot. Just one. That provision allows a team to sign its own drafted player to a higher amount than any other team can sign him (in other words, other teams will have to carry the entire value of the contract against their cap while the team that drafted the player gets some of the amount off the cap).

I'm not talking about salary slots like the NBA has, nor paying penalties, etc. for exceeding the cap. This provision merely rewards team that not only draft well, but all develop their teams well. It also allows for continuity within a system, rather than having players flop in new environments.

I do not know how you can adopt just one provision and expect it not to affect other CBA provisions.

You said that you would lower the salaries of the 1st 32 round picks to 1 million a year. Does that not make it two provisions??
 
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