OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clements $?

[upstater1]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

You know, I wondered about that but wasn't sure. To toot my horn, that gives my stance more credence. Nobody expected Holmes to go down so soon. If LJ signed this (second) contract, essentially he was a well-paid and talented back-up (a la the present SD situation w/ Turner). He accepted a good pay-day to be an insurance policy.

As talented as he might become (and has since become), he was an unproven commodity. The list of bust Penn St. RB runs long. While I don't buy into that bunk, a lot of people do, including the pros in NFL personnel.

I think the solution, to avoid these annual debacles, is to either reform the rules (as MLB continues to do) or continue to fight about it endlessly. He took a good "back-up" deal and is now expected to be the supervisor at a layman's wage. That doesn't fly in most places.

But, say LT gets decapitated in game one and Turner had signed a 3 Y, 11 M deal. Turner runs for 1400 yds, catches for 450. He was a borderline elite salaried RB as a back-up (WHEN he signed the contract), but suddenly the cap expands and 5 guys who produced less average 8 M to his ~3.7. If he holds out, does he now deserve to re-work for the 10 M he now WOULD be paid if he was a free-agent again?

Just to set the record straight, the bust list for PSU RBs isn't as long as you imagine. They have had stellar RBs in the NFL, like Franco Harris, Curt Warner, John Cappelletti, Larry Johnson, Lydell Mitchell, etc. The problem is that 3 top draft choices all suffered debilitating knee injuries in their very first years. Blair Thomas, Ki-Jana Carter, Curtis Enis. Now, I did have doubts about Curtis Enis' ability in the pros, but Ki-Jana Carter was an amazing back in college, and his style of play should have translated very, very well into the pros. But I think with the PSU RB busts, so much of that was about injury, more than anything else.

There have also been a host of fullbacks and scatbacks who have done well, such as Matt Suhey, Sam Gash, Richie Anderson, Jon Witman, Kenny Watson, Eddie Drummond, etc.

Maybe the PSU bust theory is around because people tend to empasize the negative over the positive stories.

 

[upstater1]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

You know, I wondered about that but wasn't sure. To toot my horn, that gives my stance more credence. Nobody expected Holmes to go down so soon. If LJ signed this (second) contract, essentially he was a well-paid and talented back-up (a la the present SD situation w/ Turner). He accepted a good pay-day to be an insurance policy.

As talented as he might become (and has since become), he was an unproven commodity. The list of bust Penn St. RB runs long. While I don't buy into that bunk, a lot of people do, including the pros in NFL personnel.

I think the solution, to avoid these annual debacles, is to either reform the rules (as MLB continues to do) or continue to fight about it endlessly. He took a good "back-up" deal and is now expected to be the supervisor at a layman's wage. That doesn't fly in most places.

But, say LT gets decapitated in game one and Turner had signed a 3 Y, 11 M deal. Turner runs for 1400 yds, catches for 450. He was a borderline elite salaried RB as a back-up (WHEN he signed the contract), but suddenly the cap expands and 5 guys who produced less average 8 M to his ~3.7. If he holds out, does he now deserve to re-work for the 10 M he now WOULD be paid if he was a free-agent again?

I also agree with you that the NFL's salary structure is really awful. One of the guys who got shafted in this is Rodney Harrison. As an undrafted FA, he never had the big payday coming out of college, and he never really hit it big because of injuries in his FA year. Why do some no talent bust safeties earn more than a potential hall of famer like Harrison? It's because of the salary slots in the NFL draft. They should get rid of those. After 3 years, the rookies should have proven themselves. That's when they should go up for the big contract. They could find a mechanism to give each team a right of first refusal on the second contract, the same way the NBA does. In fact, the NBA allows a team to pay their own player MORE than other teams could by defraying some of the cost against the cap. This gives a team incentive to keep their own players since signing their own players is cheaper (on paper).

That's how I'd solve this salary mess.

 

[upstater1]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Yup, he's 4 years into a 7 year rookie deal. Isn't that just about the time Richard started squawking here and got about a million or so of new money bumped back into his current season earnings then followed by a new deal? There are tons of precedent for what he's doing and yet as fans we always act shocked when this happens. KC redid Holmes rookie deal at about the same point, and LJ was there to see that. He's younger and healthier than Holmes was when KC redid him.

We redid Brady a year before his rookie deal expired, and then redid him again 2 years before his second deal expired. Based on performance and value it made sense to lock him up. When teams want to redo deals to benefit them long or short term, it's fine. When they player wants his deal redone for the same reasons, he's a jerk. There is no such thing as a guaranteed contract in this league - teams demand salary cuts from players all the time. So it's a little silly of us as fans to get sanctimonious when the shoe is on the other foot.

The way Herm abused him last season LJ would do well to look out for LJ. On a team likely to struggle for the next couple of seasons at least, under a HC who could well ge long gone before things get better, if I'm being asked to carry the load I'm looking to be paid accordingly. 'Cause I also know if I weren't holding up my end, they would demand a paycut or just kick me to the curb more than halfway through an existing contract, as they just happen to have proved with my "franchise" QB this off season.

7 year rookie deal??!! Oh my God, I'm wrong. Sorry. I just can't believe that such a thing even exists!

 

[g-fresh]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

LJ really has no choice but to do this, the way the chiefs have used him he might not play more than one or two more seasons. I cannot blame him for not wanting to carry the ball 416 times again next season for not much money, I think he sees the toll it is taking on his body. He may want to be traded to a team that won't run him into the ground in a year or two. Without him that offense goes from ok to terrible, he has all the leverage here and the Chiefs will have to pay him or they are in big trouble.

I think that his holding out is different from Branch or Samuel. He signed that contract to play the role of back up to Priest Holmes, who no one thought would be out of the game at this point. Now his situation is totally different from the one he was in when the contract was signed and he is not being fairly compensated. If the Chiefs are not willing to restructure his deal then he has no choice but to hold out. I don't agree with him if he is unwilling to budge from an insanely large contract, but he should be getting paid much much more than he is, especially considering he rushed the ball 60+ more times than anyone else in the NFL.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

I feel bad for LJ. He's making **** money and that moron Herm Edwards (a terrible head coach if you ask me) is going to run him into the ground in two years time. "Go out and get receivers? **** that! Larry Johnson is going to run the ball until 2009 when he blows his knee out from being a workhorse".

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Here goes another disgruntled player who wants as big money as the best in the game.

Larry Johnson is threatening to sit out the season unless he is paid Ladanian Tomlinson money just like Asante Samuel wants Nate Clements type money.

Very similar indeed - Larry is a big part of the chiefs offense and they would be in trouble without him as well as in our situation Asante helps solidify our secondary big time as well.

I think Larry has been paying close attention to what Asante is doing and now we have 2 excellent players near the top at thier respective positions who refuse to play for a more than decent wage.

Is there no end to this?

I think Larry is as important to KC as Asante is to our Patriots - But both are asking a bit too much,wouldn't you say?

I don't think the Comparison is accurate at all. Johnson has put up back to back 1700 + yard seasons. He is much more important to the success of the Chiefs offense than Samuel is to the Pats defense.

 

[dhamz]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Do the teams get to go back to the well, and say "HEY! You were supposed to be BLUE CHIP! GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK"? No. They can do the equivalent of a holdout, by cutting the underperformer.

Teams do this all the time. Players constatntly are told they need to redo their contract reducing their salary or they will be cut.

 

[dhamz]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

There is no similarity between Johnson and Samuel other than neither of them missed anything they were required to attend. Johnson who is under contract has attended all mandatory team activites. Samuel is not under contract and is not required to attend anything.

Johnson is facing the very real possibility that if he can't get a big deal now then he never will. History says a guy who carries the ball as much as LJ did last year breaks down the next season.

 

[makoute]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Holy crap. A seven-year rookie deal??? Okay, my whole post stands corrected.

Looks like he should fire his agent. Or maybe he only has himself to blame for it.

 

[TealSox]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Sounds like we all side with Larry Johnson on the issue of money and holding out.

First of all, he is the primary weapon on a team that has few quality weapons. They traded their veteran QB and exchange him for a rookie, so that might be an even draw. Seems that each year they loss a quality offensive lineman and replace them with good to average retreads. Receiver has been an issue unless you count Tony Gonzalez, who is has seen better seasons.

Second, the fact that he is a running back. You all said it or you know it. They have a short life in the NFL. They might miss out on a second contract, they are often replaced or at least replaceable, and run the risk of injury that support either one or both of the preceding issues.

Give the guy some money. This is one of those issues where the "business" end needs to take a seat and the "game" part takes precedent.

As far as Assante goes, he, like Branch, was a product of the system. Not to say that they won't have stellar careers after the Patriots, but they really require the right SYSTEM. Assante isn't going to cover a reciever like Champ Bailey does or even Nate Clements.

I agree with the point that not even Nate deserves the contract he got, but I admit that he is a pure corner that has the fundamentals.

The Pats situation with Branch, Samuel, David Patten, et al is very much like the Broncos move on without Droughens, Portis, Mike Anderson, Tatum Bell, et al. The media and people just need to have faith in the system and the people in charge of that system.

The problem with Samuel is that he is valuable to the Patriots and the system they run, but doesn't have the value leaguewide. Maybe he does and if he does, than the offers will be there for him. If the Pats and the guys in charge don't have Samuels replacement, than the Pats might be in trouble. Look how much trouble the Pats were in last year without Branch. (Sarcasm?)

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Well, look at it this way.

A seven-year rookie deal? That's a way of saying "I prefer the sure thing to the gigantor payday." You and the Chiefs have come to a preliminary agreement on your value, regardless of the balloon payment (?) and/or the incentives written into the contract, it's not like hitting your stride at 4 years then signing a multiyear, multimillion APY deal.

It's a way of saying, "you agree to pay me a certain amount for potential alone, and I agree that if this thing goes to term, I am a bargain over the 7 years."

It's also a way of saying "this is a special and different way of doing a rookie deal in a league that considered a rookie deal a 4-5 year thing tops, and now is down to more like 3-4."

Sometimes doing the "special and different deal" is thought out and benefits all parties. Other times, it's just denial of the basic economics. Just like if he underperformed, and the Chiefs asked him to re-do his deal, or be cut. He is saying re-do my deal, or I take the hit and don't play. I just don't see what he plans to do about the other several years for which his negotiating rights are owned by the KC Chiefs. A trade would obviously solve that, but what if the Chiefs don't want to trade? An impasse would so screw both parties on this one, it's not even funny.

Johnson outperformed his (extensive) rookie deal, and wants more cash. Fine. I just don't really see his leverage. I guess he'd be a fool not to try. But in this case, unless I'm totally missing something, he might be a fool to try too earnestly as well.

PFnV

 

[upstater1]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Well, look at it this way.

A seven-year rookie deal? That's a way of saying "I prefer the sure thing to the gigantor payday." You and the Chiefs have come to a preliminary agreement on your value, regardless of the balloon payment (?) and/or the incentives written into the contract, it's not like hitting your stride at 4 years then signing a multiyear, multimillion APY deal.

It's a way of saying, "you agree to pay me a certain amount for potential alone, and I agree that if this thing goes to term, I am a bargain over the 7 years."

It's also a way of saying "this is a special and different way of doing a rookie deal in a league that considered a rookie deal a 4-5 year thing tops, and now is down to more like 3-4."

Sometimes doing the "special and different deal" is thought out and benefits all parties. Other times, it's just denial of the basic economics. Just like if he underperformed, and the Chiefs asked him to re-do his deal, or be cut. He is saying re-do my deal, or I take the hit and don't play. I just don't see what he plans to do about the other several years for which his negotiating rights are owned by the KC Chiefs. A trade would obviously solve that, but what if the Chiefs don't want to trade? An impasse would so screw both parties on this one, it's not even funny.

Johnson outperformed his (extensive) rookie deal, and wants more cash. Fine. I just don't really see his leverage. I guess he'd be a fool not to try. But in this case, unless I'm totally missing something, he might be a fool to try too earnestly as well.

PFnV

He could become a malcontent. That's the prolem right there. Belichick has shown that he prefers not have such people on the team.

I'm sure part of Johnson's reasoning when he took the sure thing was that his coach at the time publicly spoke about the wasted draft pick, and he had Priest Holmes in front of him.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

He could become a malcontent. That's the prolem right there. Belichick has shown that he prefers not have such people on the team.

I'm sure part of Johnson's reasoning when he took the sure thing was that his coach at the time publicly spoke about the wasted draft pick, and he had Priest Holmes in front of him.

Yep. Well, KC, looks like the "diapars are off." Ya got what ya wanted tiger, how does it taste?

PFnV

 

[solman]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Here goes another disgruntled player who wants as big money as the best in the game.

Larry Johnson is threatening to sit out the season unless he is paid Ladanian Tomlinson money just like Asante Samuel wants Nate Clements type money.

Very similar indeed - Larry is a big part of the chiefs offense and they would be in trouble without him as well as in our situation Asante helps solidify our secondary big time as well.

I think Larry has been paying close attention to what Asante is doing and now we have 2 excellent players near the top at thier respective positions who refuse to play for a more than decent wage.

Is there no end to this?

I think Larry is as important to KC as Asante is to our Patriots - But both are asking a bit too much,wouldn't you say?

This post is wrong in many reguards:

1. LJ is the heart of the KC offense. He had over 400 carries last year. Without him, they have no offense.

Asante is the best CB on a defensive unit which, without him, should be a top two scoring defense during 2007.

2. LJ is scheduled to earn around $1.7M in 2007. If he plays and has another 400 carry season, the value of his next contract will DECREASE by more than $1.7M due to wear and tear. In other words, even if LJ plays under his current contract and does NOT get injured, playing in 2007 will cost him more money than sitting out. This doesn't even factor in the physical pain that heavily used NFL RBs experience after their careers are over.

Asante is scheduled to earn nearly $8M in 2007. If he plays he will not only collect a guaranteed huge pay day, but he will INCREASE the value of his next contract. Baring a serious injury, the long term impact of playing an NFL season at CB are inconsequential (in comparison to a season at RB).


The bottom line is this:

KC needs LJ to field a competitive team
NE does not neet Asante to be the preseason superbowl favorites
LJ stands to gain money by sitting out for a year
Asante will lose HUGE money by sitting out for a year

LJ would be acting contrary to his best interests if he didn't demand a new deal, and he knows it.
Asante would be acting contrary to his best interests if he held out past the first game, and he knows it.

 

[Miguel]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

I also agree with you that the NFL's salary structure is really awful. One of the guys who got shafted in this is Rodney Harrison. As an undrafted FA, he never had the big payday coming out of college, and he never really hit it big because of injuries in his FA year. Why do some no talent bust safeties earn more than a potential hall of famer like Harrison? It's because of the salary slots in the NFL draft. They should get rid of those. After 3 years, the rookies should have proven themselves. That's when they should go up for the big contract. They could find a mechanism to give each team a right of first refusal on the second contract, the same way the NBA does. In fact, the NBA allows a team to pay their own player MORE than other teams could by defraying some of the cost against the cap. This gives a team incentive to keep their own players since signing their own players is cheaper (on paper).

That's how I'd solve this salary mess.

If I understand you correctly, you would limit all rookie's deals to 3 years. And after the 3 years teams would have the right of first refusal. In agreeing to this, what would you offer the NFLPA in return??

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

This post is wrong in many reguards:

1. LJ is the heart of the KC offense. He had over 400 carries last year. Without him, they have no offense.

Asante is the best CB on a defensive unit which, without him, should be a top two scoring defense during 2007.

2. LJ is scheduled to earn around $1.7M in 2007. If he plays and has another 400 carry season, the value of his next contract will DECREASE by more than $1.7M due to wear and tear. In other words, even if LJ plays under his current contract and does NOT get injured, playing in 2007 will cost him more money than sitting out. This doesn't even factor in the physical pain that heavily used NFL RBs experience after their careers are over.

Asante is scheduled to earn nearly $8M in 2007. If he plays he will not only collect a guaranteed huge pay day, but he will INCREASE the value of his next contract. Baring a serious injury, the long term impact of playing an NFL season at CB are inconsequential (in comparison to a season at RB).


The bottom line is this:

KC needs LJ to field a competitive team
NE does not neet Asante to be the preseason superbowl favorites
LJ stands to gain money by sitting out for a year
Asante will lose HUGE money by sitting out for a year

LJ would be acting contrary to his best interests if he didn't demand a new deal, and he knows it.
Asante would be acting contrary to his best interests if he held out past the first game, and he knows it.

Good wrapup of the comparative situations, Solman. Of course the everpresent trade spectre toward the end of training camp (I'm mainly thinking Samuel) is something to think about (a la Branch.)

PFnV

 

[dhamz]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

If I understand you correctly, you would limit all rookie's deals to 3 years. And after the 3 years teams would have the right of first refusal. In agreeing to this, what would you offer the NFLPA in return??

Nothing. The NFLPA would jump all over that proposal. The owners would never even think of offerring it.

 

[upstater1]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

If I understand you correctly, you would limit all rookie's deals to 3 years. And after the 3 years teams would have the right of first refusal. In agreeing to this, what would you offer the NFLPA in return??

I'd offer the NBA's method. In the NBA, the teams have slots for that second contract, different levels. Almost like a RFA, but a bit different, since the team is allowed to pay their player MORE than any other team can in that slot. Then I would not count this additional amont against the salary cap. This way, I'd reward teams that draft well by allowing them to pay their players more and not be penalized against the cap for paying their own 4th year players a handsome salary. The union would like this because there would be money going to players over and above the cap, presumably. It would also increase competition among teams since you get rewarded for developing players and bringing them along.

Finally, veterans would be for it since this wold free up money for people like Rodney Harrison (I'm talking about Rodney's situation about 5 years ago, not the current one).

 

[upstater1]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

Nothing. The NFLPA would jump all over that proposal. The owners would never even think of offerring it.

Well, Miguel's question is still valid, because the basic premise is that there's a dramatic reduction in the amount of money for players slotted in the draft.

The union might look ****eyed at that. On the other hand, they might also have support from curret NFL players and veterans who would not necessarily be looking out for the guaranteed payday of college players.

 

[upstater1]

Re: OT: Larry Johnson wanting Tomlinson money - Like Asante situation wanting Clement

The South Carolina Game****s went off half****ed after I shot them with my rifle. When I went to re****, I saw a pea**** signing his John Han**** on Wild Bill Hi****'s hat. Bill looked at me ****eyed, with that ****sure grin for which he's known, and then the ****y cowboy said to me, "A ****s on your house."