OT: James Harrison threatens to quit over fine

[emoney_33]

Rodney Harrison disagrees with you. So do most others who have watched this game for any length of time or those who have played.

FLAGRANT head shots don't happen because of the speed of the game. I don't care what Brandon says, but his launching himself at Todd Heap's head was wrong and there was no call for it. Just like James Harrison launching himself at Massaquoi's head was wrong.

There are times that helmet to helmet hits will happen. But it's clear when they are flagrant.

I agree except that Brandon's was not flagrant. I've already linked to a good video of it and explained it but it definitely was not a flagrant case of head hunting.

I think what people fear is that there is no clear way to determine if a helmet-to-helmet is flagrant. And the only way to avoid ALL helmet-to-helmet is to adjust your game defensively which potentially opens up more for the offense.

The valid worry is that the NFL is hiding behind "protecting players" as a way for fans to -accept- continued change of the game towards more offense, which generates more revenue.

 

[DaBruinz]

The NFL is trending towards the elimination, or severe restriction, of contact, with various stated reasons for doing so. This isn't really debatable. The only question is where the trend finally stops.

You see only what you want to see. I see a trend where the NFL wants to mitigate the potential of concussions, neck injuries and back injuries suffered by it's players since those seem to be the injuries that are plaguing these players long term.

They have also changed the rule about players returning to the field after they appear to suffer a concussion. Where they have to pass a battery of tests administered by the team physician. Not to mention they must also have a scan done after the game.

They do need to take the next step and start mandating these players use the better helmets that are on the market and the mouth pieces that can help prevent concussions as well.

As for the illegal contact, they are trying to eliminate a problem that has plagued the league for decades while also increasing the scoring. Unfortunately, the refs still get it wrong as much as they get it right.

In NFL history, how many players have been paralyzed due to helmet-to-helmet contact? How many players' careers ended specifically because of the type of helmet-to-helmet contact that is being eliminated by this "existing rule"?

Daryl Stingley. Kevin Everett. Dennis Byrd. Mike Utley. Wayne Chrebet. Ted Johnson. Kevin Turner.

All of them have suffered due to helmet to helmet hits.

This is incorrect. Furthermore, that "existing rule" is about 2 years old.

Actually, the rule that is 2 years old is in regards to launching at a defenseless receiver. The helmet to helmet rule was instituted in 1996.

NFL Rule Changes and Clarifications

 

[DaBruinz]

I agree except that Brandon's was not flagrant. I've already linked to a good video of it and explained it but it definitely was not a flagrant case of head hunting.

I don't care about how you interpretted some video. I have watched and re-watched Meriweather's hit on Heap and it was flagrant. He launched himself, leaving his feet. You can delude yourself into believing otherwise, but that doesn't make it true.

I think what people fear is that there is no clear way to determine if a helmet-to-helmet is flagrant. And the only way to avoid ALL helmet-to-helmet is to adjust your game defensively which potentially opens up more for the offense.

Yes there is. I can't help that you don't understand that. When a player launches himself at another player and aims for the head, it's flagrant. That was the case for James Harrison's hit on Massaquoi. That was the case for Meriweather's hit on Heap.

The valid worry is that the NFL is hiding behind "protecting players" as a way for fans to -accept- continued change of the game towards more offense, which generates more revenue.

The NFL isn't hiding behind anything. The reality is that the NFL has had a rule on the books regarding helmet to helmet hits at least since 1996. Prior to the 2009/2010 season, they league added a rule about defensive players launching themselves at "defenseless" receivers that also included language about leading with the helmet.

"Fans" of the game see these fines as Goodell trying to "change the game" because they (the fans) don't understand that the rule about helmet to helmet hits has been around and the league is just cracking down on it in an attempt to reduce injuries, specifically concussions, neck injuries and back injuries.

The reality is that the concussions, neck injuries and back injuries have become a major concern for the NFL because of the fans outcry over what has happened to some of the players. And, the league, though it is doing so begrudgingly, is trying to make changes that don't negatively affect the game.

Are there other things it could do? Yep. Like making the "anti-concussion" helmets mandatory for all players. There are at least 4 different ones out there, 2 of which are the same size as the "traditional" helmets.

The other thing it could do is make the mouth guards that are designed to help eliminate concussions be mandatory. And no, the standard mouth guard isn't designed to do that.

 

[emoney_33]

I don't care about how you interpretted some video. I have watched and re-watched Meriweather's hit on Heap and it was flagrant. He launched himself, leaving his feet. You can delude yourself into believing otherwise, but that doesn't make it true.

He can't hit Heap in the chest without leaving his feet. When Brandon whiffs on a tackle do you claim it was a flagrant attack on the air?

Yes there is. I can't help that you don't understand that. When a player launches himself at another player and aims for the head, it's flagrant. That was the case for James Harrison's hit on Massaquoi. That was the case for Meriweather's hit on Heap.

It was not the case for Brandon's hit at all, he was aiming for the chest/dislodge of the ball. Mayo pushing Heap cannot be discounted either, but again you come to a conclusion and demand all factual evidence before you is how you say it is. I THOUGHT it was flagrant as well... until I re-watched it today objectively.

You can expect Brandon's judgement to be perfect if you want, but threatening suspensions for accidental misjudgements will change the game in favor of the offense.

The NFL isn't hiding behind anything. The reality is that the NFL has had a rule on the books regarding helmet to helmet hits at least since 1996. Prior to the 2009/2010 season, they league added a rule about defensive players launching themselves at "defenseless" receivers that also included language about leading with the helmet.

"Fans" of the game see these fines as Goodell trying to "change the game" because they (the fans) don't understand that the rule about helmet to helmet hits has been around and the league is just cracking down on it in an attempt to reduce injuries, specifically concussions, neck injuries and back injuries.

The reality is that the concussions, neck injuries and back injuries have become a major concern for the NFL because of the fans outcry over what has happened to some of the players. And, the league, though it is doing so begrudgingly, is trying to make changes that don't negatively affect the game.

Are there other things it could do? Yep. Like making the "anti-concussion" helmets mandatory for all players. There are at least 4 different ones out there, 2 of which are the same size as the "traditional" helmets.

The other thing it could do is make the mouth guards that are designed to help eliminate concussions be mandatory. And no, the standard mouth guard isn't designed to do that.

The bottom line is that the NFL is a business and any policy set will be for their benefit or because they are bound by law. But we will see how they hand out suspensions, if a play like Brandon's is suspension-worthy then the game WILL change.

 

[ClosingTime]

Mike Tomlin might not be aware of that.

But seriously, I remember him smiling on the sideline after Clark lit up Wes Welker. I think that is part of his scheme.

I can't find the video of it, but I remember an interview with him before the season opener against the Titans last year. When asked what he thought the key to the game was, he replied: "Whichever team is more violent is going to win."

Yeah so? It's football. A war. The most violent team does usually win, you know, the game is won and lost in the trenches, yada, yada, yada.

If you are going to throw the little crossing routes receivers are going to get lit up. If that is part of your offensive gameplan then you have to accept the risk.

Big punishing hits on receivers going across the middle, making them not want to do it again is an essential element of football. So is intimidation and violence.

I don't know what sport some of you have been watching or if the same ones questions all the antics of the duplicitous Rodney Harrison when he was a player.

 

[shmessy]

Yeah so? It's football. A war. The most violent team does usually win, you know, the game is won and lost in the trenches, yada, yada, yada.

If you are going to throw the little crossing routes receivers are going to get lit up. If that is part of your offensive gameplan then you have to accept the risk.

Big punishing hits on receivers going across the middle, making them not want to do it again is an essential element of football. So is intimidation and violence.

I don't know what sport some of you have been watching or if the same ones questions all the antics of the duplicitous Rodney Harrison when he was a player.

Spoken like a true hypocritical fan of the Steroid Curtain.

 

[spacecrime]

Big punishing hits on receivers going across the middle, making them not want to do it again is an essential element of football. So is intimidation and violence.

If you can't match up talent-wise, knock their players out of the game and maybe out-play the backups? Interesting gameplan.

 

[captain stone]

Spoken like a true hypocritical fan of the Steroid Curtain.

Very, very well said. Damn, I hate the PitsDirt stealers, incl. its look-the-other-way Rooney Rule ownership,
its enabling cooler-than-thou HC, its thug scum players, and their Neanderthal fanbase.

BTW, what BM executed on Heap was a Flying Head-Butt, worthy of the WWF.
He knew exactly what he was doing, and did it with malice aforethought.

OTOH, to anyone who doesn't believe that the Omissioner-NaPolian axis of evil isn't deliberately attempting to make the game safer for its primma donna QBs & WRs, at the expense of a level playing field for - and the safety of - its defensive players: get your head outta the sand.

 

[condon84]

Rodney Harrison disagrees with you. So do most others who have watched this game for any length of time or those who have played.

FLAGRANT head shots don't happen because of the speed of the game. I don't care what Brandon says, but his launching himself at Todd Heap's head was wrong and there was no call for it. Just like James Harrison launching himself at Massaquoi's head was wrong.

There are times that helmet to helmet hits will happen. But it's clear when they are flagrant.

Speed of the game IS a huge factor. Rod Woodson was talking about it on NFL Network. He said as a defender, when he commits himself to hit an offensive player with proper technique (leading with shoulder pads and not with their helmet), even though the defender is practicing proper technique, he can't control what the offensive player does before impact. He said because the distance between the shoulder and the helmet is minimal, if the offensive player ducks their head before impact, which he says they do a lot to brace themselves for impact, a defender using proper legal technique could still accidentally hit an offensive player with his helmet.

IMO, Merriweather deserved his fine because he clearly used his helmet to hit Heap. If you look at Harrison's and Robinson's hit, it doesn't look like they tried to use their helmet as weapons.

 

[DaBruinz]

He can't hit Heap in the chest without leaving his feet. When Brandon whiffs on a tackle do you claim it was a flagrant attack on the air?

I love when people have lost an argument that they have to resort to blatant ignorance to try and make a point. First and foremost, Heap was in a defenseless position being in the air. There was no reason for Meriweather to leave his feet at all. Also, contrary to your thinking, Meriweather could have hit Heap anywhere from the chest down without leaving his feet. You can sit there and make up all the garbage you want, but none of it will change the fact that Meriweather did not have to leave his feet to hit Heap. Period.

It was not the case for Brandon's hit at all, he was aiming for the chest/dislodge of the ball. Mayo pushing Heap cannot be discounted either, but again you come to a conclusion and demand all factual evidence before you is how you say it is. I THOUGHT it was flagrant as well... until I re-watched it today objectively.

Now you are making sh!t up. Sorry, but Meriweather did, in fact, launch himself and aim for the head. As for you watching it objectively? BS. You watched it and saw what you wanted in a lame attempt to support the ridiculous position you've taken.

You can expect Brandon's judgement to be perfect if you want, but threatening suspensions for accidental misjudgements will change the game in favor of the offense.

I don't expect him to be perfect. However, I do expect him to follow the rules and not aim for the head when he goes to tackle someone. And I also don't expect him to launch himself at another player in a way that will, more often than not, cause him to be flagged for Unnecessary Roughness.

The bottom line is that the NFL is a business and any policy set will be for their benefit or because they are bound by law. But we will see how they hand out suspensions, if a play like Brandon's is suspension-worthy then the game WILL change.

While the NFL is a business, all rules are not set out for their benefit. In fact, many of the recent rule modifications have come in an attempt to make the game safer. I guess you could call it "for their benefit" with the idea that they don't want to have to pay higher than usual insurance premiums because numerous players are suffering neck/spine injuries.

Plays like Brandon's will be suspension worthy if they continue to happen on a regular basis. You can't leave your feet and launch yourself at a player who is defenseless. Period. If/when you get that through your head, you'll understand the game better and the situation that is being talked about. Until then, you've taken yourself out of the conversation with your insistence on ignoring the rules and your claims that what Meriweather did was legal.

 

[DaBruinz]

Speed of the game IS a huge factor. Rod Woodson was talking about it on NFL Network. He said as a defender, when he commits himself to hit an offensive player with proper technique (leading with shoulder pads and not with their helmet), even though the defender is practicing proper technique, he can't control what the offensive player does before impact. He said because the distance between the shoulder and the helmet is minimal, if the offensive player ducks their head before impact, which he says they do a lot to brace themselves for impact, a defender using proper legal technique could still accidentally hit an offensive player with his helmet.

IMO, Merriweather deserved his fine because he clearly used his helmet to hit Heap. If you look at Harrison's and Robinson's hit, it doesn't look like they tried to use their helmet as weapons.

There were two plays by Harrison that were reviewed. One on Cribbs and one on Massaquoi. The one on Massaquoi is the one he was fined for. And he was fined because he launched himself at Massaquoi's head.

As for Robinson, I agree. He shouldn't have been fined. He didn't lead with his helmet. He didn't leave his feet. He didn't have Helmet to Helmet contact.

As for accidently hitting a player in the helmet, that is something different and I agree with Woodson that it will happen and not be intentional. But there is a difference between launching yourself HIGH at a player who is in the air and bracing yourself so that you hit a player as he touches the ground and you knock him on his rear end.

Had Meriweather just braced himself to hit Heap as Heap landed, aiming for Heap's midsection where the ball would have been, this would have been a non-issue. Instead, Meriweather clearly left his feet and led with his helmet, going high on Heap.

 

[emoney_33]

I love when people have lost an argument that they have to resort to blatant ignorance to try and make a point. First and foremost, Heap was in a defenseless position being in the air. There was no reason for Meriweather to leave his feet at all. Also, contrary to your thinking, Meriweather could have hit Heap anywhere from the chest down without leaving his feet. You can sit there and make up all the garbage you want, but none of it will change the fact that Meriweather did not have to leave his feet to hit Heap. Period.

I haven't "lost" anything and I don't comment on things as a game to win or lose an argument. The fact of the matter is you are wrong, it is what it is though. You can go about life believing that Brandon wanted to hit his friend in the head, I'll go by the more logical assumption that he was aiming for the chest (which clearly he was when he began his half-assed stop-turn-jump). To wait for Heap to land is to give Heap a chance to better secure the ball and allow a completion.

Now you are making sh!t up. Sorry, but Meriweather did, in fact, launch himself and aim for the head. As for you watching it objectively? BS. You watched it and saw what you wanted in a lame attempt to support the ridiculous position you've taken.

Once again with your lame attitude DB. I didn't make anything up and as a matter of fact I went 3 days believing that Brandon went for the head. Then I watched it again, and it's blatantly obvious that is exactly NOT what he did at all.

I don't expect him to be perfect. However, I do expect him to follow the rules and not aim for the head when he goes to tackle someone. And I also don't expect him to launch himself at another player in a way that will, more often than not, cause him to be flagged for Unnecessary Roughness.

You can make a case that he shouldn't have "launched" you cannot make a case that he aimed for the head. Pause the replay (the one I linked at :03 I think) at the instant that Meriweather is pushing off his feet (the decision time) and there is a straight line from meriweather to Heap's chest. Of course Brandon didn't judge correctly Heap's decent so that he ended up hitting Heap in the head while Brandon was turning.

While the NFL is a business, all rules are not set out for their benefit. In fact, many of the recent rule modifications have come in an attempt to make the game safer. I guess you could call it "for their benefit" with the idea that they don't want to have to pay higher than usual insurance premiums because numerous players are suffering neck/spine injuries.

They will never look after player safety if it doesn't benefit them. Welcome to corporate America.

Plays like Brandon's will be suspension worthy if they continue to happen on a regular basis. You can't leave your feet and launch yourself at a player who is defenseless. Period. If/when you get that through your head, you'll understand the game better and the situation that is being talked about. Until then, you've taken yourself out of the conversation with your insistence on ignoring the rules and your claims that what Meriweather did was legal.

If a 5'11 safety has to wait for a 6'5 TE to land with the ball, then that TE has a huge advantage on those types of plays. And the alternative is going to be players cutting legs out. If they can't jump to hit in the chest, they will hit the waist or whatever else they can reach. Flipping a player in the air and having them land awkwardly is pretty f'ing dangerous.

I never claimed the legality of the hit I claim that it was not a flagrant head-hunting suspension worthy hit. If the launching rules say Brandon's hit was illegal, then fine. I don't know the wording of the launching rule, but I find it hard to believe they don't allow jumping at all. Are they going to suspend for ALL launching?

If all illegal hits are suspension worthy, then defenses will have to change because it is in their benefit to change. The risk of going for the hit becomes far too great and you simply will see altered play at the benefit of offense.

I'm all for player safety, what Brandon did was not flagrant nor suspension worthy.

 

[TrueBeliever]

On a related note...

NFL Fines 'Monday Night Football' For Helmet-To-Helmet Hit | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

You know it's going to come to this point, too.

 

[shmessy]

As for accidently hitting a player in the helmet, that is something different and I agree with Woodson that it will happen and not be intentional. But there is a difference between launching yourself HIGH at a player who is in the air and bracing yourself so that you hit a player as he touches the ground and you knock him on his rear end.

Case in point: The play that got Brady all ticked off when Ngata hit him - - notice Brady DOES get hit hard in the helmet - - - by Matt Light from the side.

The real backstory of the whole Brady-Suggs circus is that both were right - - Brady was hit in the helmet, he just mistakenly thought by a Ravens defender- - and the Ravens did nothing illegal on the play.