OT: Brian Cushing suspended four games for PEDs

[Deus Irae]

Oh poor little Deus Irae has his knickers in a knot. There's responsibility on behalf of the league to inform their players of issues as such if they run their own anti-doping policies but there is always the provision for players to take personal responsibility for EVERYTHING THEY INGEST. I know this because I've been personally involved with WADA programs across several olympic level programs. Peak body incompetence or not it is the athlete's responsibility to ensure that everything they are taking is "clean".

The ultimate responsibility lies with the athlete themselves. It always has and always will.

My comment still stands.

Your comment was moronic. That you continue to defend it is pathethic. It's not that I have my "knickers in a knot". It's that I expect better from you. Players can't be expected to know unlisted ingredients. They aren't chemists, and they aren't able to break down the chemical components of their intake. If the league knows of unlisted ingredients, it should inform the players.

The "Ultimate responsibility" is a bunch of crap in the first place. By your logic, the people who died during the Tylenol poisonings last century were to blame for their own deaths, and people who die from tainted foods (like e coli infested meats or vegetables) are also to blame for their own predicament. After all, even though the poison wasn't listed on the ingredients, it's their "ultimate responsibility" to know that a batch of the caplets, or batches of the food, were tainted.

 

[eom]

Your comment was moronic. That you continue to defend it is pathethic. Players can't be expected to know unlisted ingredients. They aren't chemists, and they aren't able to break down the chemical components of their food. If the league knows of unlisted ingredients, it should inform the players.

The "Ultimate responsibility" is a bunch of crap in the first place. By your logic, the people who died during the Tylenol poisonings last century were to blame for their own deaths, and people who die from tainted foods (like e coli infested meats or vegetables) are also to blame for their own predicament. After all, even though the poison wasn't listed on the ingredients, it's their "ultimate responsibility" to know that a batch of the caplets, or batches of the food, were tainted.

dude, are these serious posts, or do you just troll the board?
not that I have anything against trolling, but I don't think you'd score very high on an SAT with that kind of analogy.

 

[Deus Irae]

dude, are these serious posts, or do you just troll the board?
not that I have anything against trolling, but I don't think you'd score very high on an SAT with that kind of analogy.

The analogy is fine, and I wasn't trolling at all. Holding someone to blame for ingesting a substance that's not reportedly in a mass marketed product is idiotic.

In this case, not only is the league holding the players to blame for taking a product that was supposed to be clean, it's doing so even though the league knew the product was not clean and kept that information from the players for 2 years.

 

[ausbacker]

Your comment was moronic. That you continue to defend it is pathethic. It's not that I have my "knickers in a knot". It's that I expect better from you. Players can't be expected to know unlisted ingredients. They aren't chemists, and they aren't able to break down the chemical components of their intake. If the league knows of unlisted ingredients, it should inform the players.

The "Ultimate responsibility" is a bunch of crap in the first place. By your logic, the people who died during the Tylenol poisonings last century were to blame for their own deaths, and people who die from tainted foods (like e coli infested meats or vegetables) are also to blame for their own predicament. After all, even though the poison wasn't listed on the ingredients, it's their "ultimate responsibility" to know that a batch of the caplets, or batches of the food, were tainted.

And I expect better from you referring to a position that is flawed which clearly isn't because I have intimate knowledge and experience with PED testing and education programs. Whilst I acknowledge that peak bodies should have current databases full of exact banned or not banned products the responsibility lies with the athletes and here's why.

1. Nobody expects the players to know the entirety of what's in a product.
2. If a player is unsure about a product you consult the relevant bodies for reference on the product.
3. To remove all doubt you have the ability to send a small sample of the product to testing laboratories for the chemists to synthesize the exact ingredient list.
4. If a player is sure of a product you still investigate it.
5. Supplements are notorious for unlisted ingredients.

I also find your reference to people who have been affected by tainted products elsewhere a juvenile example at best. Those unfortunate souls were not athletes and subjected to the same stringent measures and testing that elite level athletes are around the world.

There's nothing to stop you and I from following the trail of our food stuffs to see exactly what happens every step along the way but that still doesn't address the issue that I don't sign a labor agreement with the NFL agreeing to many issues in the stated contract that the NFL players do.

Furthermore it will be interesting the see the outcome of LaShawn Merrit's "I didn't know" excuse too.

You say you expect more from me Deus Irae well I expected more from you.

 

[Deus Irae]

And I expect better from you referring to a position that is flawed which clearly isn't because I have intimate knowledge and experience with PED testing and education programs.

Then you should have known your position was flawed in the first place. It's not as if it's even a close call.

Whilst I acknowledge the peak bodies should have current databases full of exact banned or not banned products the responsibility lies with the athletes and here's why.

1. Nobody expects the players to know the entirety of what's in a product.
2. If a player is unsure about a product you consult the relevant bodies for reference on the product.
3. To remove all doubt you have the ability to send a small sample of the product to testing laboratories for the chemists to synthesize the exact ingredient list.
4. If a player is sure of a product you still investigate it.

The league is a "relevant body". It knew. It didn't tell the players. How the hell is this still getting past you?

I also find your reference to people who have been affected by tainted products elsewhere a juvenile example at best. Those unfortunate souls were not athletes and subjected to the same stringent measures and testing that elite level athletes are around the world.

Your response is a complete copout, and I'm sure you know that. You are "ultimately responsible" for every substance you ingest, is the argument, and it applies to everyone. However, in an era where one does not grow/raise 100% of one's own food/drink/supplements/you-choose-the-word, such a position is asinine.

There's nothing to stop you and I from following the trail of our food stuffs to see exactly what happens every step along the way but that still doesn't address the issue that I don't sign a labor agreement with the NFL agreeing to many issues in the stated contract that the NFL players do.

Actually, there are several somethings that stop it. There are many things. Cost, laws, the inability of the untrained to know precisely what every substance is, etc...

Furthermore it will be interesting the see the outcome of LaShawn Merrit's "I didn't know" excuse too.

It's really irrelevant to starcaps, but ok

You say you expect more from me Deus Irae well I expected more from you.

Why? Your comment:

They know because they are forced to know that everything they put in their bodies they are responsible for.

Was a silly one given how modern commerce works, and I called you on it, in a pretty calm manner, using a very timely example. I noted that a case demonstrated your position to be terribly flawed, nothing more. Did you expect milk and cookies with it or something? It's absolutely moronic for the league to demand that the players know something and then keep that information from the players. People such as yourself, who get their panties in a bunch over the "cheating", should be outraged at the league for its actions, rather than pulling that "ultimate responsibility" nonsense on the players.

 

[ausbacker]

Then you should have known your position was flawed in the first place. It's not as if it's even a close call.

The league is a "relevant body". It knew. It didn't tell the players. How the hell is this still getting past you?

Your response is a complete copout, and I'm sure you know that. You are "ultimately responsible" for every substance you ingest, is the argument, and it applies to everyone. However, in an era where one does not grow/raise 100% of one's own food/drink/supplements/you-choose-the-word, such a position is asinine.


Actually, there are several somethings that stop it. There are many things. Cost, laws, the inability of the untrained to know precisely what every substance is, etc...

It's really irrelevant to starcaps, but ok

Why? Your comment:

Was a silly one given how modern commerce works, and I called you on it, in a pretty calm manner, using a very timely example. I noted that a case demonstrated your position to be terribly flawed, nothing more. Did you expect milk and cookies with it or something? It's absolutely moronic for the league to demand that the players know something and then keep that information from the players. People such as yourself, who get their panties in a bunch over the "cheating", should be outraged at the league for its actions, rather than pulling that "ultimate responsibility" nonsense on the players.

You've summarized why I have scant regard for your opinion regarding PED use, responsibility and subsequent outcomes Deus Irae. That saying "that a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous" rings oh so true with your opinion on this matter. That's referenced to this specific matter not your overall contributions.

Your continued use of believing other people's positions are flawed when they don't agree with you and who are clearly more knowledgeable than you are on certain issues will never make you right no matter how many times you use the term flawed.

If you really want to comment on this I suggest you research WADA standards manuals to get a general feel for the scope of what you believe you're addressing. You'll change your tune after that if you can be bothered. That I am certain of.

BTW I support your stance regarding the league's inaction in notifying the players of the banned substance contained in the product. That still doesn't change the fact that supplements are still notorious for admitting complete ingredient lists and should always be investigated by the players ingesting them.

 

[Deus Irae]

...BTW I support your stance regarding the league's inaction in notifying the players of the banned substance contained in the product...

That's all that was relevant to my point, since my point was about the flaw in the notion that the players should "now everything..." and you should have just admitted to that in the first place. The rest was just nonsensical blame-shifting on your part. Again....

They know because they are forced to know that everything they put in their bodies they are responsible for.

Is fatally flawed when those in charge can withhold information for 2 years, and then punish others for their lack of said knowledge.

As for what I know about drug programs/testing/responsibility.... well, I'll just leave it as you having no idea what I know.

 

[ausbacker]

That's all that was relevant to my point, since my point was about the flaw in the notion that the players should and you should have just admitted to that in the first place. The rest was just nonsensical blame-shifting on your part. Again....

Is fatally flawed when those in charge can withhold information for 2 years, and then punish others for their lack of said knowledge.

As for what I know about drug programs/testing/responsibility.... well, I'll just leave it as you having no idea what I know.

More semantics on your behalf in trying to save face on an issue which you've gone around in circles to address nothing.

Either way I remain true in my comment that whilst peak bodies should have a requirement to inform their athletes of up to date prohibited substance lists the very first thing athletes of all sporting denominations are taught is to assume that everything is illegal and work from there. And I do mean everything.

It is and always will be the responsibility of the athlete to ensure their own standing. That's the whole point of TUE's.

 

[Deus Irae]

More semantics on your behalf in trying to save face on an issue which you've gone around in circles to address nothing.

Actually, I've addressed a specific point, which was simply that the Starcaps case demonstrated your position to be flawed. You conceded to the part of the point I was noting as an example of why I found your position flawed. I'm not the one playing semantics.

Either way I remain true in my comment that whilst peak bodies should have a requirement to inform their athletes of up to date prohibited substance lists the very first thing athletes of all sporting denominations are taught is to assume that everything is illegal and work from there. And I do mean everything.

Penalizing based upon strict liability is almost always a stupid idea. Drug testing is just one area that's demonstrated why that is the case.

It is and always will be the responsibility of the athlete to ensure their own standing. That's the whole point of TUE's.

And it's a flawed position. That's the whole point of my initial response to you on the subject.

 

[ausbacker]

Actually, I've addressed a specific point, which was simply that the Starcaps case demonstrated your position to be flawed. You conceded to the part of the point I was noting as an example of why I found your position flawed. I'm not the one playing semantics.

Penalizing based upon strict liability is almost always a stupid idea. Drug testing is just one area that's demonstrated why that is the case.

And it's a flawed position. That's the whole point of my initial response to you on the subject.

Always insistent on the last word in spite of your own shortcomings in opinion. You'd challenge the world for rotating on a 23.5 degree axis if you could Deus Irae. I never disagreed that it wasn't a peak bodies imperative to give their athletes information they have more the final responsibility always rests with the athlete.

Perhaps you can take WADA to the Court of Arbitration for Sport arguing against the rights that professional athletes sign away for the right to compete.

And Deus Irae, you are playing semantics except I'm not lost in your convoluted response construction like others can become.

 

[BradyFTW!]

They're sending a great message to kids.

Not that you're wrong, but can we please bury the "won't somebody think of the children!?" line once and for all? There's no reason to resort to it if your point has any merit, so it's pretty much always either unnecessary or a last-ditch effort to defend a point with no merit.

Personally, I don't see why Cushing shouldn't keep it. Until the NFL gets serious enough about steroid testing to actually catch most of the guys that do it, it's just randomly punishing guys for PR's sake. The owners are going to pretty much get whatever they want in the next CBA, so if this is really that big of a deal to them (and I doubt it is), they'll get stricter testing mandated.

@MoLewisRocks: I worry about the lack of ethics in real journalism. Re: sports journalism, I really couldn't care less. Nothing that they write matters anyways.

 

[Deus Irae]

Always insistent on the last word in spite of your own shortcomings in opinion. You'd challenge the world for rotating on a 23.5 degree axis if you could Deus Irae. I never disagreed that it wasn't a peak bodies imperative to give their athletes information they have more the final responsibility always rests with the athlete.

Perhaps you can take WADA to the Court of Arbitration for Sport arguing against the rights that professional athletes sign away for the right to compete.

And Deus Irae, you are playing semantics except I'm not lost in your convoluted response construction like others can become.

Given that I never discussed WADA and never discussed what rights athletes "sign away", I'll repeat: I'm not the one playing semantics.

Again, you posted something. I responded with an instance that I felt clearly shows a flaw in what you posted. You've posted nothing to counter my point. You have, in fact, agreed on my position re: the League. You simply don't care how the league behaved because you're all about sticking to the idiotic notion that somehow it's possible to know every single substance you put into your body without actually being there during the creation/making of each individual bite/sip/pill.

In other words, you agree with the thrust of my point, but continue to assert that strict liability is the right course despite that. The one playing semantics is you.

 

[ausbacker]

Given that I never discussed WADA and never discussed what rights athletes "sign away", I'll repeat: I'm not the one playing semantics.

Again, you posted something. I responded with an instance that I felt clearly shows a flaw in what you posted. You've posted nothing to counter my point. You have, in fact, agreed on my position re: the League. You simply don't care how the league behaved because you're all about sticking to the idiotic notion that somehow it's possible to know every single substance you put into your body without actually being there during the creation/making of each individual bite/sip/pill.

In other words, you agree with the thrust of my point, but continue to assert that strict liability is the right course despite that. The one playing semantics is you.

This is the exact problem most people find you abrasive and annoying in this forum. You're inventing mistruths to try and appear right when you simply are not. I respect you as a poster but I'm not going to back down from this issue with you.

I have no issue with stating that it's the NFL's imperative to inform player bodies of information they are aware of however your own stupidity and apparent lacking involvement in elite level sports precludes you from the fact that athletes are taught from the outset to assume everything is illegal and the onus is on them to investigate what they are ingesting. You know when you buy a supplement or take an over the counter substance it is your duty to investigate that product to avoid this very issue. How that continues to evade you is beyond comprehension. You may think it's trivial but the reality is substance ingestion really is taken that seriously and pleading ignorance either on behalf of the peak body or the elite sportsperson themselves does not cut it.

That's the problem with society today. It's always someone else's fault.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Oh poor little Deus Irae has his knickers in a knot. There's responsibility on behalf of the league to inform their players of issues as such if they run their own anti-doping policies but there is always the provision for players to take personal responsibility for EVERYTHING THEY INGEST. I know this because I've been personally involved with WADA programs across several olympic level programs. Peak body incompetence or not it is the athlete's responsibility to ensure that everything they are taking is "clean".

The ultimate responsibility lies with the athlete themselves. It always has and always will.

My comment still stands.

Which is why the suspensions will still be enforced when all the excuse making and litigation is said and done. The dog ate my homework isn't a valid excuse, even if your folks know the damn dog lives to destroy paper. It's not like they haven't pointed this fact out to you time and time again, and reminded you it's your responsibility to insure you put it somewhere he can't get at it...

Not that this has anything to do with the case at hand, though. Cushing took a drug that is banned not because it is performance enhancing in and of itself, but because it is well established as an antidote for some of the unwanted side effects of steriod usage. That this thread was hyjacked into something else altogether is simply one of the increasingly unfortunate side effects of DI's very existence here. The only antidote for which currently available is apparently ignoring his semantic blather...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

PFT is summarizing the increasing backlash against the AP voters who voted for Cushing again, including those who did so merely to protest a revote, that is now coming from their own peers. Vic Ketchum summed it up pretty concisely. There is also a link in the PFT piece to the list of voters and how they cast their ballots in each instance. Apparently Tom E. Curran was one of the gang of 18...or as Florio characterizes them not merely naked emperors but driven to riding down the street standing on a horse with a sheet of tp dangling from their foot to underscore depth of their delusional disconnect.

Backlash against AP voters who supported Brian Cushing is building | ProFootballTalk.com

 

[Bostonian1962]

I just want to wish Brian Cushing the best of luck in getting to the bottom of how this female fertility drug, used to boost testosterone by steroid users, got into his darned system. This is nothing more than bad luck. Here's a guy who has been labeled a steroid user since high school, and throughout college, and this darned stuff unknowingly gets into his system.

I feel for this honest gentleman, and know that he will get to the bottom of this fiasco!!!!!

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I just want to wish Brian Cushing the best of luck in getting to the bottom of how this female fertility drug, used to boost testosterone by steroid users, got into his darned system. This is nothing more than bad luck. Here's a guy who has been labeled a steroid user since high school, and throughout college, and this darned stuff unknowingly gets into his system.

I feel for this honest gentleman, and know that he will get to the bottom of this fiasco!!!!!

Yeah, and let's hope that tumor someone told him he might have that he worried about in silence for eight long months doesn't actually materialize down the road...

Steroids must turn your brain to mush at the same time they shrink your nuts, if you actually ever had either... The Texans must be thrilled to know they not only drafted and invested in a cheater, but also a pathological liar who can't man up even when caught dead to rights. I hope that the 18 knuckleheads who voted for him, including Curran, now realize they're on the same level intellectually as the moron they just enabled.

One of the mediots who wasn't stupid enough to re vote him the DROY made a great observation yesterday. The NFL is the only league that allows media organizations to independently bestow individual seasonal awards that actually impact a players earnings via contractual incentives and escalators that sometimes cover the term of their entire contract. And because they do they are at the mercy of these organizations to do the right thing, which they very often don't. Time to make the voting of annual award winners something the league controls. So that if someone is suspended for violating the leagues rules there can be rules in place that stipulate the award will be stripped as a result even after the fact if the violation took place in the prior season, and in the case of PED's violations they also become ineligible for performance awards consideration the season following their violation as part of the penalty.

 

[ausbacker]

Yeah, and let's hope that tumor someone told him he might have that he worried about in silence for eight long months doesn't actually materialize down the road...

Steroids must turn your brain to mush at the same time they shrink your nuts, if you actually ever had either... The Texans must be thrilled to know they not only drafted and invested in a cheater, but also a pathological liar who can't man up even when caught dead to rights. I hope that the 18 knuckleheads who voted for him, including Curran, now realize they're on the same level intellectually as the moron they just enabled.

One of the mediots who wasn't stupid enough to re vote him the DROY made a great observation yesterday. The NFL is the only league that allows media organizations to independently bestow individual seasonal awards that actually impact a players earnings via contractual incentives and escalators that sometimes cover the term of their entire contract. And because they do they are at the mercy of these organizations to do the right thing, which they very often don't. Time to make the voting of annual award winners something the league controls. So that if someone is suspended for violating the leagues rules there can be rules in place that stipulate the award will be stripped as a result even after the fact if the violation took place in the prior season, and in the case of PED's violations they also become ineligible for performance awards consideration the season following their violation as part of the penalty.

MoLewisrocks reading his reasoning is the most disconcerting thing. When you get in trouble it's usually best to just shut up. Cushing is doing a super job in embarrassing himself and his family now.

 

[eom]

PFT is summarizing the increasing backlash against the AP voters who voted for Cushing again, including those who did so merely to protest a revote, that is now coming from their own peers. Vic Ketchum summed it up pretty concisely. There is also a link in the PFT piece to the list of voters and how they cast their ballots in each instance. Apparently Tom E. Curran was one of the gang of 18...or as Florio characterizes them not merely naked emperors but driven to riding down the street standing on a horse with a sheet of tp dangling from their foot to underscore depth of their delusional disconnect.

Backlash against AP voters who supported Brian Cushing is building | ProFootballTalk.com

haha...if you notice, the guy from pittsburgh of all places, ed bouchette, actually changed his vote from byrd TO cushing....hahahahhahaha......

 

[Bostonian1962]

MoLewisrocks reading his reasoning is the most disconcerting thing. When you get in trouble it's usually best to just shut up. Cushing is doing a super job in embarrassing himself and his family now.

Steroid users are living a lie to begin with, and then continue to lie when asked if they use. Once finally caught, we don't all really expect them to turn into Honest Abes do we?

Even the ones that are cornered and have to admit it end up saying stuff like, "I only used it for a week, and then only because of an injury". It's pretty funny really, because nobody believes them, but they are unable to see how pathetic they look.

These users know more about masking tricks than the testers and seldom get caught, so if they somehow get caught, all that is really left is bald face lies.