OT: Article: Cassel under pressure

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

[1] Fair enough

[2] I see no reason to think this. Do you have any evidence?

The 2008 season is that evidence. Cassel exhibited the capacity to do something no other backup here has come close to doing (to date, Hoyer still has a shot). He could run this offense basically as is, as opposed to requiring an overhaul to suit his divergent skillset. It's something most fans didn't grasp during his tenure here. Bill did, which is why he had that tenure to begin with. Fans want to see Matt Schaub emerge from the shadow of tom Brady every pre season. That's not a backup, it's an alternate option. Bill isn't in the business of looking for or showcasing alternative approaches because the one he has works way more predictably than those based on the vagaries of a QB's athletic prowess. What he wants are bright, coachable, poised, disciplined, determined candidates willing to do whatever it takes to master a complex system at the next level. No more Rohan Davey packages. Within reason, given who and what Tom emerged to be, he wants relatively seemless transition. Cassel proved he could provide that. Hopefully he is the last guy to truly get a chance to for the forseeable future...

Cassel has proved to date he could not only survive backing up back to back Heisman winners by the margin of a coin flip, he could thrive backing up arguably the GOAT at the next level, survive being thrust into the spotlight under a microscope for 16 weeks with virtually nothing backing him up beyond his coaches faith and teamates stunned support, and not be broken the following year after getting both the franchise tag placed on him and the snot beat out of him in a less than popular or brilliantly managed rebuild. The ultimate common thread between Brady and Cassel is perseverance in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds.

Bill would hypothetically take that guy back in a heartbeat, if he needed to and/or he could. Fortunately for all concerned neither is the case.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

I knew Cassel was never the second coming of #12 like some people around here thought, but he is a good NFL QB, worthy of starting and playing well. He'll be fine once they give him some weapons and a line that doesn't suck. I expect a better season from him.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

The 2008 season is that evidence. Cassel exhibited the capacity to do something no other backup here has come close to doing (to date, Hoyer still has a shot). He could run this offense basically as is, as opposed to requiring an overhaul to suit his divergent skillset. It's something most fans didn't grasp during his tenure here. Bill did, which is why he had that tenure to begin with. Fans want to see Matt Schaub emerge from the shadow of tom Brady every pre season. That's not a backup, it's an alternate option. Bill isn't in the business of looking for or showcasing alternative approaches because the one he has works way more predictably than those based on the vagaries of a QB's athletic prowess. What he wants are bright, coachable, poised, disciplined, determined candidates willing to do whatever it takes to master a complex system at the next level. No more Rohan Davey packages. Within reason, given who and what Tom emerged to be, he wants relatively seemless transition. Cassel proved he could provide that. Hopefully he is the last guy to truly get a chance to for the forseeable future...

Cassel has proved to date he could not only survive backing up back to back Heisman winners by the margin of a coin flip, he could thrive backing up arguably the GOAT at the next level, survive being thrust into the spotlight under a microscope for 16 weeks with virtually nothing backing him up beyond his coaches faith and teamates stunned support, and not be broken the following year after getting both the franchise tag placed on him and the snot beat out of him in a less than popular or brilliantly managed rebuild. The ultimate common thread between Brady and Cassel is perseverance in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds.

Bill would hypothetically take that guy back in a heartbeat, if he needed to and/or he could. Fortunately for all concerned neither is the case.

If you mean that Cassel played very well in 2008, so well that BB would have been prepared to continue with him as QB if (God forbid!) Brady hadn't been available, then that's reasonable.

To say that BB would like to have Cassel back (which is what the post I was responding to said) implies that he regrets the trade with KC, which is something different for which I see no evidence.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

If you mean that Cassel played very well in 2008, so well that BB would have been prepared to continue with him as QB if (God forbid!) Brady hadn't been available, then that's reasonable.

To say that BB would like to have Cassel back (which is what the post I was responding to said) implies that he regrets the trade with KC, which is something different for which I see no evidence.

I agree that, if God forbid, Brady's injury had been career-ending/career-threatening, rather than season-ending, they would have moved heaven and earth to find a way to keep Cassel (starting with the franchise tag).

I will take the poster in question's comment that BB would like Cassel back to mean that if he could have kept Cassel on a reasonable contract as Brady's backup, he would have. Of course, such a thing wasn't realistic.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

If you mean that Cassel played very well in 2008, so well that BB would have been prepared to continue with him as QB if (God forbid!) Brady hadn't been available, then that's reasonable.

To say that BB would like to have Cassel back (which is what the post I was responding to said) implies that he regrets the trade with KC, which is something different for which I see no evidence.

He didn't say Bill would like to have Cassel back, he said he thought he'd be happy to have him back (which to me read as in if he were in need of a QB Cassel would always be welcomed back here - kinda like the employee who moved on to a better job but left on good terms). I do not think he regrets the trade to KC. Matt achieved every goal Bill ever dreamed he might for him... Drafted in the 7th round and signed for peanuts for 4 years he backed up a HOF QB for 3 seasons and stepped in for him in the breach and led the team to double digit wins and then he netted them the 34th pick in a draft. It seldom gets any better than that, unless you have a premature dynasty death wish (Montana to Young...).

I think a lot of people still believe either Bill got snookered because he didn't get a package of 2nds for Cassel like Atlanta did for Schaub, the supposed gold standard for flippable starting caliber backups, or Cassel 2008 was an abherration. Atlanta spent a third for the opportunity to have Schaub go 0-2 in his time there, and also got to live through the aftermath of what led to that ill timed trade - fear of a crippling QB controversey on Vick's problematic $130M watch...Houston is still waiting for Schaub to make a real difference (as opposed to a statistical one) entering his 4th full season there....after he missed 10 starts in his first two seasons. If KC's a .500 team after the next two seasons, he will be on impact pace with the other Matt.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

He didn't say Bill would like to have Cassel back, he said he thought he'd be happy to have him back (which to me read as in if he were in need of a QB Cassel would always be welcomed back here - kinda like the employee who moved on to a better job but left on good terms).

OK. It's hot and I maybe didn't pick up the semantic subtleties.

I do not think he regrets the trade to KC. Matt achieved every goal Bill ever dreamed he might for him... Drafted in the 7th round and signed for peanuts for 4 years he backed up a HOF QB for 3 seasons and stepped in for him in the breach and led the team to double digit wins and then he netted them the 34th pick in a draft. It seldom gets any better than that, unless you have a premature dynasty death wish (Montana to Young...).

Indeed. Towards the end of the season, Cassel/McDaniels had the offense playing remarkably well (having a 3rd wide receiver was good too!) Had they got into the play-offs, I really do believe that they could have done some damage.

I think a lot of people still believe either Bill got snookered because he didn't get a package of 2nds for Cassel like Atlanta did for Schaub, the supposed gold standard for flippable starting caliber backups, or Cassel 2008 was an abherration. Atlanta spent a third for the opportunity to have Schaub go 0-2 in his time there, and also got to live through the aftermath of what led to that ill timed trade - fear of a crippling QB controversey on Vick's problematic $130M watch...Houston is still waiting for Schaub to make a real difference (as opposed to a statistical one) entering his 4th full season there....after he missed 10 starts in his first two seasons. If KC's a .500 team after the next two seasons, he will be on impact pace with the other Matt.

I don't think that Bill got a great deal. After all, he got pick 34 instead of pick 97 (if MC had left in free agency). But he also had to throw in Vrabel. My judgement is that Bill was not on the verge of cutting MV and that that loss hurt last season. But Pioli could negotiate from strength, given that McDaniel wasn't in the market.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

I think a lot of people still believe either Bill got snookered because he didn't get a package of 2nds for Cassel like Atlanta did for Schaub, the supposed gold standard for flippable starting caliber backups, or Cassel 2008 was an abherration.

Food for thought: let's say that, somehow, in fall 2007, the Patriots had been able to get Cassel to sign a two-year extension, so that he'd get, say, $4M over two years (2009 and 2010). Everything else happens as before—I think the Patriots would have had teams falling all over themselves for Cassel. In both cases, the teams' problems go well beyond the signal caller.

As it is, though, having to franchise Cassel pulled down his trade value.

If KC's a .500 team after the next two seasons, he will be on impact pace with the other Matt.

To be fair, the Texans were a .250 team in the two seasons before getting Schaub; the Chiefs were a .187 team in the two seasons before getting Cassel.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

OK. It's hot and I maybe didn't pick up the semantic subtleties.

It is rather hot and humid in the colonies this time of year. Me, I blame the misunderstanding on the inherent ambiguities on the language the Brits foisted on us.

That said, Cassie was an excellent backup here and we were fortunate BB & co had the insight to keep and develop him. He is the gold standard for backup QBs with his steadily improving 16 game season performance. With the excellent coordinator staff in KC this year and further roster improvement I expect he'll perform far better than last season. I thnk he'll show again that he's better than most NFL starters.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

OK. It's hot and I maybe didn't pick up the semantic subtleties.



Indeed. Towards the end of the season, Cassel/McDaniels had the offense playing remarkably well (having a 3rd wide receiver was good too!) Had they got into the play-offs, I really do believe that they could have done some damage.



I don't think that Bill got a great deal. After all, he got pick 34 instead of pick 97 (if MC had left in free agency). But he also had to throw in Vrabel. My judgement is that Bill was not on the verge of cutting MV and that that loss hurt last season. But Pioli could negotiate from strength, given that McDaniel wasn't in the market.

Bill got pick 34 in 2009 instead of pick 97 in the following (2010) seasons draft (discounted value roughly equivalent to pick 129 in 2009). He didn't have to throw Vrabel in. He was going to be cut because he wasn't worth his salary any longer except perhaps to a team with a ton of cap space they had to eat up just to reach the floor and a dire need for system veterans seeing as RAC wasn't available yet and Haley never in his life coached a defense... It was reported at the time that Vrabel was given the choice and he preferred to play the 2009 season in a system he was comfortable with albeit at his contractual salary... And given his familiarity with the system it was in the best interest of the team to trade him out of the division to a rebuilding team rather than cut him and have him land in some blowhard's ample lap at less than half that price.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

It is rather hot and humid in the colonies this time of year. Me, I blame the misunderstanding on the inherent ambiguities on the language the Brits foisted on us.

That said, Cassie was an excellent backup here and we were fortunate BB & co had the insight to keep and develop him. He is the gold standard for backup QBs with his steadily improving 16 game season performance. With the excellent coordinator staff in KC this year and further roster improvement I expect he'll perform far better than last season. I thnk he'll show again that he's better than most NFL starters.

I agree. Like any QB, he needs a good offensive line, a running game decent enough to keep defenses honest and receivers that know how to run routes, make adjustments and most importantly, make plays.

 

[TrueBeliever]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

Funny, just a few minutes ago I decided to check the Chiefs' website just to make sure they were still planning on holding their training camp in Missouri instead of in Wisconsin. They are, unfortunately for me. I'm sure the Chiefs faithful are much happier with it being down there though.

Closer to the discussion, in the comments section under the camp schedule on said website, there was already a remark about "a lot more wins this season." While it'd be hard not to win more games this year than last year, I don't think the Chiefs are quite ready to contend yet. I agree with the earlier post that Cassell could do well with a good team around him. Very few QBs can carry a team, and Matt isn't one of them, at least not yet.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

Bill got pick 34 in 2009 instead of pick 97 in the following (2010) seasons draft (discounted value roughly equivalent to pick 129 in 2009). He didn't have to throw Vrabel in. He was going to be cut because he wasn't worth his salary any longer except perhaps to a team with a ton of cap space they had to eat up just to reach the floor and a dire need for system veterans seeing as RAC wasn't available yet and Haley never in his life coached a defense... It was reported at the time that Vrabel was given the choice and he preferred to play the 2009 season in a system he was comfortable with albeit at his contractual salary... And given his familiarity with the system it was in the best interest of the team to trade him out of the division to a rebuilding team rather than cut him and have him land in some blowhard's ample lap at less than half that price.

Is that right?

Certainly, his salary was rich (typical back-loaded Pats contract?) and maybe I'm fantasizing, but I can't imagine he wouldn't have been very valuable last season.

Your point about the extra year is 100% right -- although 2010 > 2009 by most people's reckoning.

The pressure to do a deal was strong for the reasons CTPF77 says. Once Cassel was franchised, the Pats were right up against the cap. If they wanted to do anything in free agency they had to move him out. I have no inside information, but it looked from the outside that KC had them over a barrel.

 

[townes]

I thought the Cassel trade was perfect compensation because no team was going to give up a first rounder without having a contract in place, and Belichik wasn't going to allow Cassel's agent to get into the mix because then he would have had the control over trade negotiations and not Belichik, and i think Belichik would have let the draft pass and take a pick the following year rather than allow Cassel's agent to get involved in the discussions, i.e..he would still have insisted upon trading him under the franchise tag rather than allow the agent control over where he ended up. The #34 they got Chung with was fine with me and i think Chung will become a really good player for them. I won't be surprised if he is a pro bowl safety in a couple of years.

 

[Patjew]

I look back on 2008 with nostalgia. That team got alot further than many thought it would, and Cassel was a very likeable player and person. His wife is nice, too.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This kind of sums it up, although it was the author and not Haley who pointed out that he was obviously in way over HIS head last season was also part of the problem. As far as potential fixes go, it doesn't get much better than this. Charlie focused on offense with no defensive involvement, RAC focused on defense with no offensive involvement, Pioli again drafting for a system and scheme he is thoroughly familiar with... Haley just needs to work on his own accountability and comportment as a head coach. If he can check his own ego at the door, and learn resist the urge to either credit grab for what works or insecurely unload and toss everything from individuals to entire sections of his roster under the bus to deflect criticism for what doesn't, KC may be on to something.

Quarterback Matt Cassel: Cassel took a lot of heat last season when he didn't make that big of a difference after signing a $40 million deal.

Yet Haley believes Cassel will benefit from an improved offensive line, the presence of running back Thomas Jones and a stronger receiving group. Haley has praised Cassel’s spirit, work ethic and resolve.

“This guy is making progress in a bunch of ways,” Haley said. “He had a very difficult year last year, but he didn’t crack. That’s a good sign. He has been one of our best workers this offseason, if not the best. He’s working.

“We had 50-plus drops last season. If those don’t happen, people would look at Cassel differently … If we get the improved offensive play around him that we hope to, I think people will feel better about Matt Cassel.”

Haley likes where his team is going - AFC West Blog - ESPN

 

[Mike the Brit]

I look back on 2008 with nostalgia. That team got alot further than many thought it would, and Cassel was a very likeable player and person. His wife is nice, too.

Good point, well made.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: Article: Cassel under pressure

[1] Fair enough

[2] I see no reason to think this. Do you have any evidence?

No. But Matt Cassell is getting some more NFL experience and when & if he needs him in three plus years, he might well be available, very cheap...

MC has more than great triangle numbers, which he does possess. He has proved to Bill already that he has True Grit and POISE, and that he has a QB's brain between his ears.

Unlike many so-called experts, Bill knows that 90% of a QBs talent resides between the ears...