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Nice Topic and some good thoughts.

Part of the nature of football, Compared to baseball is that baseball is mostly a binary operation (between 2 players) at any given moment with less emphasis on team dynamics. Where as football always has 22 people in play (11 on each side) with time being a very real factor (i.e. the longer a play goes on the greater likelihood that there's a breakdown).

So, in a basic rudimentary way if a team has a 99% chance of doing things right and you involve 11 distinct parts that could equate to a 90% chance of success whereas a team with a 98% chance would have more than double the failure rate at 80% chance of success.

I think the time factor, in part, explains why passing is more successful than running. With running, time effectively starts right after the ball is in motion whereas passing there's usually a 1.5 second plus delay.

Obviously there's way too many factors to which is why a coach can explain a play in minutes rather than baseball where a real time call is about as deep as you need to get for everyone to understand whats going on (ok you can get a bit deeper, but the probability tree on baseball is fairly limited)
Geez.. where did you come from? You've got a big brain my friend.
 
Wait a minute. I remember Ty Law and Tyrone Poole getting placed on IR in 2004. I also remember Asante Samuel getting hurt late in the '04 regular season as a starter; which lead the way to inserting Troy Brown at CB. But I don't remember Belichick undervaluing the position of CB.

The issue is depth and the belief that BB could put anyone in that position and "coach them up", if you do not see the overall difference in the quality of our DB play than you are seeing something completely different than I am.. the Gilmore signing for example.

The game is continually evolving.. and BB's most recent moves reflect that change. Getting faster was an obvious need in the first half of SBLI, and he has made an effort to resolve that need, instead of having to play catch up.
 
Geez.. where did you come from? You've got a big brain my friend.
Thanks, I think with this one post I just hit my quota for the year. :)

Though it's an interesting topic (pass vs run factors), from theory and we could easily start to get deep on the subject.
 
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This is a very high level thread... good stuff... I'm just having a hard time...




88576b547c8f5c4a77d40df47dc0ff0e.gif


...keeping up. o_O


I know I wrote Football player versus Super Athlete but tough to determine where the threshold is between the two.
 
The issue is depth and the belief that BB could put anyone in that position and "coach them up", if you do not see the overall difference in the quality of our DB play than you are seeing something completely different than I am.. the Gilmore signing for example.

The game is continually evolving.. and BB's most recent moves reflect that change. Getting faster was an obvious need in the first half of SBLI, and he has made an effort to resolve that need, instead of having to play catch up.

It seems tome that, these days, CB are required to be not only faster, but more agile. And versatile. These days, it's really helpful for a CB to be able to follow a WR around the formation and cover him from wherever he lines up and not be entirely limited to covering just one boundary or the other.

With the nickel being the default on defense, the "slot CB" is virtually a starter, and the days of being able to get by with throwing someone like Wilhite out there on occasion are long gone.

CBs need to be willing and capable run defenders/tacklers, too. Especially on BB's defenses.
 
You want to know the true definition of genius. The HC of the NEP has managed to sum up this entire thread in just 3 words: "DO YOUR JOB"
 
You want to know the true definition of genius. The HC of the NEP has managed to sum up this entire thread in just 3 words: "DO YOUR JOB"
OK, here's the secrets to amassing massive wealth by Charlie Munger (you can really get the gist of it around the 6:05 mark to 7:08)

 
Let's get a little more into the philosophy of Belichick...

Do you think he enjoys coaching or winning more? What makes him tick that is different from other coaches?
 
I know I wrote Football player versus Super Athlete but tough to determine where the threshold is between the two.

You've gotten me thinking about this a bit.

It seems to me that "athleticism" (testing numbers) could be factor in prospect evaluations in a couple different ways.

For instance, in a general sense, if a prospect "tests" more athletic than he looks on tape, it could be a matter of poor technique/footwork, etc. that's hindering him from being able to get the most out of his inherent physical abilities. Or, it could be that a lack of understanding what he's seeing on the field, and/or an inability to process the information coming at him fast enough, effectively renders his "athleticism" moot. The former may be a coachable "flaw"; the latter perhaps not.

Tested athleticism may also provide some feel for a prospect's ceiling for a specific role.

As a relatively easy example, does an interior OL need to achieve the same level in short-shuttle and 3-cone testing that an OT must? And does the blocking scheme (zone v. man) make a difference in what type of measurables are most pertinent?

Another example is DB.

To me, a DB's primary job is not to prevent a pass from being caught. It's to prevent a pass from being thrown in his direction in the first place - then to prevent the completion (if thrown), and then to prevent YAC (if caught).

It may be that different minimum testing levels apply to the different CB roles. For instance, a prospect who's being considered as boundary CB candidate may not need to test as high in the shuttle/3-cone as a CB who's being considered for a slot role.

A significant portion of NFL WRs who have primarily (and successfully) worked the boundary and deep routes actually didn't post more extrordinary shuttle and 3-cone times. So, for a CB prospect who has demonstrated an elite understanding of football and routes, and elite and accurate "read speed", relatively ordinary agility/speed testing numbers may be acceptable since he'll likely be able to discourage a lot of passes from being thrown in his direction in a boundary CB role, even when "left on an island" without safety help. He still may be vulnerable in occasional man-coverage matchups with WRs who do possess elite agility, but that's where good deep-safety help comes in. Butler may be an example of this.

OTOH, many of the WRs who primarily work short and interior routes from the slot possess elite agility - both in testing and applied on the field (e.g., Edelman). So, the lack of natural (tested) agility that may be acceptable for a boundary CB prospect may not pass muster for a slot/nickel CB prospect. [However, in terms of roster-building from a wider perspective, if you can find a CB prospect who may be almost as good at boundary coverage as one of your starting boundary CBs, AND one or the other of your boundary CBs has the agility to play the slot, for some nickel substitution situations, this #3 boundary CB may be able to come in to cover that boundary in order to allow the starting boundary CB to cover the slot for that play or series.]

I mean, ideally you'd want ALL of your DBs to test in/near an elite range in agility numbers in order to enhance their role-versatility and enhance the secondary's ability to disguise coverages. However, due to external constraints, it's exceedingly difficult to assemble a crew of athletically elite DBs who also know what the hell they're doing. So, the tradeoff in terms of draft prospects (at least those who are typically available to the Pats, given how far back in line they typically begin to get their earliest selection opportunities) is often between the lesser athlete who seems to know what he's doing and the relatively "raw", elite athlete who may need a lot of coaching (IOW, signing multiple UDFAs may represent more opportunity to find a coachable athlete at DB than drafting one similar prospect in the 4th or 5th rounds).

Of course, with boundary CBs, there's also the limiting "intangible" (meaning "not quantifiable") of what I refer to as "handedness". A player may be a brilliant boundary CB on the left side but mediocre on the right side (and vice versa) if his level of "handedness" restricts his ability to master the reverse footwork and body positioning that's required to play the opposite boundary.

For a long time, the Pats had difficulty in finding guys with the appropriate "handedness" for the right boundary and put players over there even if they didn't have quite enough athletic ability to handle the position without safety help over the top (which partly explains Arrington's tenure). After the acquisition of Rowe last season, the Pats had two players with the ability to play the right side very well (Ryan and Rowe), and the agility (at a tested level, at least) to play the slot/nickel role. With the acquisition of Gilmore and the departure of Ryan, they still have two. Butler, of course, may be the odd man out in this group.
 
You've gotten me thinking about this a bit.

It seems to me that "athleticism" (testing numbers) could be factor in prospect evaluations in a couple different ways.

For instance, in a general sense, if a prospect "tests" more athletic than he looks on tape, it could be a matter of poor technique/footwork, etc. that's hindering him from being able to get the most out of his inherent physical abilities. Or, it could be that a lack of understanding what he's seeing on the field, and/or an inability to process the information coming at him fast enough, effectively renders his "athleticism" moot. The former may be a coachable "flaw"; the latter perhaps not.

Tested athleticism may also provide some feel for a prospect's ceiling for a specific role.

As a relatively easy example, does an interior OL need to achieve the same level in short-shuttle and 3-cone testing that an OT must? And does the blocking scheme (zone v. man) make a difference in what type of measurables are most pertinent?

Another example is DB.

To me, a DB's primary job is not to prevent a pass from being caught. It's to prevent a pass from being thrown in his direction in the first place - then to prevent the completion (if thrown), and then to prevent YAC (if caught).

It may be that different minimum testing levels apply to the different CB roles. For instance, a prospect who's being considered as boundary CB candidate may not need to test as high in the shuttle/3-cone as a CB who's being considered for a slot role.

A significant portion of NFL WRs who have primarily (and successfully) worked the boundary and deep routes actually didn't post more extrordinary shuttle and 3-cone times. So, for a CB prospect who has demonstrated an elite understanding of football and routes, and elite and accurate "read speed", relatively ordinary agility/speed testing numbers may be acceptable since he'll likely be able to discourage a lot of passes from being thrown in his direction in a boundary CB role, even when "left on an island" without safety help. He still may be vulnerable in occasional man-coverage matchups with WRs who do possess elite agility, but that's where good deep-safety help comes in. Butler may be an example of this.

OTOH, many of the WRs who primarily work short and interior routes from the slot possess elite agility - both in testing and applied on the field (e.g., Edelman). So, the lack of natural (tested) agility that may be acceptable for a boundary CB prospect may not pass muster for a slot/nickel CB prospect. [However, in terms of roster-building from a wider perspective, if you can find a CB prospect who may be almost as good at boundary coverage as one of your starting boundary CBs, AND one or the other of your boundary CBs has the agility to play the slot, for some nickel substitution situations, this #3 boundary CB may be able to come in to cover that boundary in order to allow the starting boundary CB to cover the slot for that play or series.]

I mean, ideally you'd want ALL of your DBs to test in/near an elite range in agility numbers in order to enhance their role-versatility and enhance the secondary's ability to disguise coverages. However, due to external constraints, it's exceedingly difficult to assemble a crew of athletically elite DBs who also know what the hell they're doing. So, the tradeoff in terms of draft prospects (at least those who are typically available to the Pats, given how far back in line they typically begin to get their earliest selection opportunities) is often between the lesser athlete who seems to know what he's doing and the relatively "raw", elite athlete who may need a lot of coaching (IOW, signing multiple UDFAs may represent more opportunity to find a coachable athlete at DB than drafting one similar prospect in the 4th or 5th rounds).

Of course, with boundary CBs, there's also the limiting "intangible" (meaning "not quantifiable") of what I refer to as "handedness". A player may be a brilliant boundary CB on the left side but mediocre on the right side (and vice versa) if his level of "handedness" restricts his ability to master the reverse footwork and body positioning that's required to play the opposite boundary.

For a long time, the Pats had difficulty in finding guys with the appropriate "handedness" for the right boundary and put players over there even if they didn't have quite enough athletic ability to handle the position without safety help over the top (which partly explains Arrington's tenure). After the acquisition of Rowe last season, the Pats had two players with the ability to play the right side very well (Ryan and Rowe), and the agility (at a tested level, at least) to play the slot/nickel role. With the acquisition of Gilmore and the departure of Ryan, they still have two. Butler, of course, may be the odd man out in this group.

That was a fantastic post.

I'm on my phone so I have to limit my response.

Particularly enjoyed this point. I never thought of it that way.

To me, a DB's primary job is not to prevent a pass from being caught. It's to prevent a pass from being thrown in his direction in the first place - then to prevent the completion (if thrown), and then to prevent YAC (if caught).

Good stuff.
 
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