Offensive Line - scouting the prospects

[Snake Eyes]

Holy crap, Petrus with 45 reps!! The guy is strong!

In truth that tells you more about his endurance than strength which is one reason why I think the bench press as tested is one of THE stupidest things to have players do.

What you want to know about a lineman is his explosiveness, how quickly he can move a given amount of weight. If you timed how long a lineman is mixing it up with the defensive player you'd see that it's only for a few seconds.

I'd like to see an event where they test that explosiveness and then keep on testing it in intervals like a player would see in a game, some might be 1st quarter wonders that fade as the game goes on and others might not be as impressive initially but they hold on for the whole game. THAT would tell you something useful about the players.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

In truth that tells you more about his endurance than strength which is one reason why I think the bench press as tested is one of THE stupidest things to have players do.

What you want to know about a lineman is his explosiveness, how quickly he can move a given amount of weight. If you timed how long a lineman is mixing it up with the defensive player you'd see that it's only for a few seconds.

I'd like to see an event where they test that explosiveness and then keep on testing it in intervals like a player would see in a game, some might be 1st quarter wonders that fade as the game goes on and others might not be as impressive initially but they hold on for the whole game. THAT would tell you something useful about the players.

I wonder if perhaps giving the time needed to do the reps (or, say, the first 20 or something) might also be useful. . . .

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Yeah, I officially want Veldheer, with the right guidance he can be a monster and protect TFB for the next decade.

What about Nate Solder, who'll be available next year, is already 6'9", and could run a 4.8 40?

 

[Snake Eyes]

I wonder if perhaps giving the time needed to do the reps (or, say, the first 20 or something) might also be useful. . . .

That would certainly give you more data points, if you wanted to stay with testing the bench press I'd rather go with a percentage of their bodyweight, maybe 100% for linemen, 225 is usually a bit light for these guys, and I'd also make it an incline bench as opposed to a flat bench because that more replicates the position they're exerting force on during a game.

 

[Snake Eyes]

What about Nate Solder, who'll be available next year, is already 6'9", and could run a 4.8 40?

While he might be good that article doesn't really tell me much about the guy, the fact that he used to play tight end means he's got some additional athleticism, which is useful, but that's about it.

I actually don't care about a lineman's 40 at all, it has nothing to do with what they need to do on the field, how often do you see a lineman running 40 yards in a straight line? A DB or WR, that happens depending on the routes they run, sometimes a LB or RB, sometimes, a lineman, never.

Sideline Scouting - Offensive Tackles

Take this for instance, I find this pretty damn useful because it tells me the key info.

The things I'm very interested in for a lineman are:

- understands leverage
- initial quickness
- fluid lateral step
- agility/athleticism
- ability to mirror the defender

The red flags for me are:

- lack of work ethic
- can be beat by speed
- slow first step (no explosiveness)
- choppy lateral movement
- injuries
- not athletic

Things like explosiveness really can't be taught, if someone has mainly slow-twitch muscle fibers they're not going to be very explosive, it can be improved with training but they're always going to be at a disadvantage to the fast-twitch guys who are also training smart. If someone isn't very coordinated they're going to have a hard time improving their footwork, this is why the athletic part really matters, and if they have a good understanding of leverage they can actually negate a lot of their physical shortcomings.

So, with that info I can get a good idea of who has issues that can be fixed and how difficult fixing those issues are, that's why I'm not all that high on Mike Iupati at #22, he has issues dealing with speed guys, same with Mike Johnson, and they'll certainly see plenty of those in the NFL. While Mitch Petrus might not be as NFL ready as Iupati at this moment I can easily fix Petrus's issues with treatment/training and some technique work, give me 6 months with him and he'd own Iupati.

I think this is why the Colts have had such success with their O-line, not one of them was picked before the 4th round yet Manning has plenty of time in the pocket: they know what to look for and how to fix the problems. Their O-line coach, Howard Mudd, was just awesome, and this is one reason why position coaches are so important, but I also think Offensive and Defensive Coordinators are important as well.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

While he might be good that article doesn't really tell me much about the guy, the fact that he used to play tight end means he's got some additional athleticism, which is useful, but that's about it.

I actually don't care about a lineman's 40 at all, it has nothing to do with what they need to do on the field, how often do you see a lineman running 40 yards in a straight line? A DB or WR, that happens depending on the routes they run, sometimes a LB or RB, sometimes, a lineman, never.

Sideline Scouting - Offensive Tackles

Take this for instance, I find this pretty damn useful because it tells me the key info.

The things I'm very interested in for a lineman are:

- understands leverage
- initial quickness
- fluid lateral step
- agility/athleticism
- ability to mirror the defended

The red flags for me are:

- lack of work ethic
- can be beat by speed
- slow first step (no explosiveness)
- choppy lateral movement
- injuries
- not athletic

Things like explosiveness really can't be taught, if someone has mainly slow-twitch muscle fibers they're not going to be very explosive, it can be improved with training but they're always going to be at a disadvantage to the fast-twitch guys who are also training smart. If someone isn't very coordinated they're going to have a hard time improving their footwork, this is why the athletic part really matters, and if they have a good understanding of leverage they can actually negate a lot of their physical shortcomings.

So, with that info I can get a good idea of who has issues that can be fixed and how difficult fixing those issues are, that's why I'm not all that high on Mike Iupati at #22, he has issues dealing with speed guys, same with Mike Johnson, and they'll certainly see plenty of those in the NFL. While Mitch Petrus might not be as NFL ready as Iupati at this moment I can easily fix Petrus's issues with treatment/training and some technique work, give me 6 months with him and he'd own Iupati.

I think this is why the Colts have had such success with their O-line, not one of them was picked before the 4th round yet Manning has plenty of time in the pocket: they know what to look for and how to fix the problems. Their O-line coach, Howard Mudd, was just awesome, and this is one reason why position coaches are so important, but I also think Offensive and Defensive Coordinators are important as well.

I ignore OL & DL 40's, but I'm very interested in their 10 yd splits.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I ignore OL & DL 40's, but I'm very interested in their 10 yd splits.

Agreed. People say that Butkus was the slowest on the team with the 40 but no one was faster than him 10yds in any direction.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Two of my favorite players from watching college FB are Charles Brown from USC and Selvish Capers from WVU. Did anyone catch them in some of the drills? How did they look? The only thing I saw was the mirror drill on NFL.com and I thought Brown looked pretty good in that.

I think tackle is a greater need than talked about with Light's age and Kaczur seemingly a better fit at RG. I originally thought we might have a shot at Bulaga in the first round, but that seems unlikely now. I know some of you guys like Saffold in the 2nd, what are your thoughts on Brown? I like his athleticism as a former TE and long arms. I think he could be a very good tackle as continues to learn the nuances and bulks up. Also has experience in the ZBS under Pete Carroll.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Two of my favorite players from watching college FB are Charles Brown from USC and Selvish Capers from WVU. Did anyone catch them in some of the drills? How did they look? The only thing I saw was the mirror drill on NFL.com and I thought Brown looked pretty good in that.

I think tackle is a greater need than talked about with Light's age and Kaczur seemingly a better fit at RG. I originally thought we might have a shot at Bulaga in the first round, but that seems unlikely now. I know some of you guys like Saffold in the 2nd, what are your thoughts on Brown? I like his athleticism as a former TE and long arms. I think he could be a very good tackle as continues to learn the nuances and bulks up. Also has experience in the ZBS under Pete Carroll.

Brown looks like a more athletic version of Tom Ashworth. I think it likely he gets drafted in round one, at the very least he's gone by the time NE picks again in round two.

Capers needs a year on the PSquad while working with Coaches Scarnecchia, Woicik, and Nash.

Saffold is very similar to what Light, Kaczur, and Mankins were coming out of college. I'd value him more than Brown at this point because he looks ready to step in and start anywhere but Center - he's tall and long enough to play on the edge, and not too tall or too weak to slide inside.

Veldheer looked to be as athletic as Brown and would seem to be available later in the draft. I also get an impression from observers that suggests he's got some of Dante's "nasty" side in him.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Trent Williams made himself a LOT of money at the Combine. I don't even remember anyone discussing him before the combine.
Bruce Campbell also looks like a top 15 lock the way he killed the combine.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Trent Williams made himself a LOT of money at the Combine. I don't even remember anyone discussing him before the combine.
Bruce Campbell also looks like a top 15 lock the way he killed the combine.

Trent Williams was talked about as a Top 10 prospect for the 2009 draft if he had come out, he was moved to the LT slot for 2009 and struggled with the adjustment from right to left so his stock dropped a little this season, but he's never been discussed as anything below a first round pick since he hit the seen.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Trent Williams was talked about as a Top 10 prospect for the 2009 draft if he had come out, he was moved to the LT slot for 2009 and struggled with the adjustment from right to left so his stock dropped a little this season, but he's never been discussed as anything below a first round pick since he hit the seen.

Thanks. I guess he was highly regarded after all, just not discussed much on our board.

Hmm. If Trent William's natural position is RT, how would you feel about a tandem of Vollmer at LT and Williams at RT playing for the Pats?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Thanks. I guess he was highly regarded after all, just not discussed much on our board.

Hmm. If Trent William's natural position is RT, how would you feel about a tandem of Vollmer at LT and Williams at RT playing for the Pats?

I don't see much value in drafting a RT in round one, that said, while he's played more RT then LT I wouldn't pigeonhole him to the right side yet.

Trent is interesting because he can move anywhere on the line, give him another year or so at LT and he'd probably be a pretty good starter there. OK State moved him from LT to C for their bowl game after they lost their Center - you've got to like a kid who can do that.

There are caution flags being raised for him concerning work ethic, I'm not sure how much of that I'm buying, but it does need to be watched.

My preference would be to draft a DE/OLB or even a CB in round one, but I'm not locked in yet...I posted elsewhere how I thought this could be a very good draft for NE to sit tight and see who slides. This is a great draft class to have all the picks BB stockpiled...I'd even consider trading some 2011 picks forward with the way that class is looking compared to this one.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Brown looks like a more athletic version of Tom Ashworth. I think it likely he gets drafted in round one, at the very least he's gone by the time NE picks again in round two.

Capers needs a year on the PSquad while working with Coaches Scarnecchia, Woicik, and Nash.

Saffold is very similar to what Light, Kaczur, and Mankins were coming out of college. I'd value him more than Brown at this point because he looks ready to step in and start anywhere but Center - he's tall and long enough to play on the edge, and not too tall or too weak to slide inside.

Veldheer looked to be as athletic as Brown and would seem to be available later in the draft. I also get an impression from observers that suggests he's got some of Dante's "nasty" side in him.

Thanks for the quick summary. Still have never seen Saffold play so I can't comment, but you seem to know a lot about him. Always been a Brown fan and liked Capers raw ability later in the draft. I think our best bet is going Light & Vollmer at tackle and Kaczur at guard, although as I've stated before I think we should be looking to upgrade tackle and replace Light.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Thanks for the quick summary. Still have never seen Saffold play so I can't comment, but you seem to know a lot about him. Always been a Brown fan and liked Capers raw ability later in the draft. I think our best bet is going Light & Vollmer at tackle and Kaczur at guard, although as I've stated before I think we should be looking to upgrade tackle and replace Light.

I need to replay the Shrine game and watch Saffold again, but you've already heard Mayock raving about him. That former Ravens scout twitted about Combine buzz about him too.

Kaczur was re-signed for starter money, though whether that's at RT, RG, or LT I couldn't say. Certainly Vollmer and a healthy LeVoir will make for a more competitive Training Camp.

As much as I'd like to see what Kaczur could do at RG, I can't help thinking Connolly is currently the guy penciled in there - he's playing at least as good as Hochstein did for NE as a starter, so camp will be very interesting (especially as I thought Wendell was actually playing better than Connolly in preseason). Orhnberger should be bulked up nicely, Bussey should be back and healthy, things are looking up for a competitive camp even before we see who BB and Dante bring in.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Hillsdale's Jared Veldheer received 'plenty of positive feedback' at NFL combine | MLive.com

 

[captain stone]

As much as I'd like to see what Kaczur could do at RG, I can't help thinking Connolly is currently the guy penciled in there - he's playing at least as good as Hochstein did for NE as a starter, so camp will be very interesting (especially as I thought Wendell was actually playing better than Connolly in preseason). Orhnberger should be bulked up nicely, Bussey should be back and healthy, things are looking up for a competitive camp even before we see who BB and Dante bring in.

Connelly? Wendell? O'Burger? Bustey? Yecch.

If more than one of these stiffs make the Opening Day 53 (my choice: Connelly), then the OL isn't as good as it needs to be.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Connelly? Wendell? O'Burger? Bustey? Yecch.

If more than one of these stiffs make the Opening Day 53 (my choice: Connelly), then the OL isn't as good as it needs to be.

Amen, "depth" isn't just having bodies available, it's having plenty of guys that can get the job done. I'd like to get Veldheer in the 2nd and Petrus in the 3rd, after a year they're both going to be monsters on the line.

 

[WesWelker83]

I need to replay the Shrine game and watch Saffold again, but you've already heard Mayock raving about him. That former Ravens scout twitted about Combine buzz about him too.

Kaczur was re-signed for starter money, though whether that's at RT, RG, or LT I couldn't say. Certainly Vollmer and a healthy LeVoir will make for a more competitive Training Camp.

As much as I'd like to see what Kaczur could do at RG, I can't help thinking Connolly is currently the guy penciled in there - he's playing at least as good as Hochstein did for NE as a starter, so camp will be very interesting (especially as I thought Wendell was actually playing better than Connolly in preseason). Orhnberger should be bulked up nicely, Bussey should be back and healthy, things are looking up for a competitive camp even before we see who BB and Dante bring in.

Did you see some of the blocking metrics that have come out in the last day or so? Apparently Neal and Mankins were two of the top 10 guards in the league in pass blocking and Seabass was a top 5 OT. Koppen was awful at C and listed in the bottom 10. Could we draft Pouncey from Florida 2nd rd? Center looks weak this yr in the draft besides him.

I highly doubt we take OT in the draft unless its Washington or Veldheer 3rd-4th rd. We have a nice 2 deep at OT with Seabass/Light/Kaczur/Levoir.

Do you think we bring back Neal? If not we need to draft a C/G.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I've already speculated on Pouncey as a G who then moves back to C. But I don't think we're going to spend a 1st round pick on him. I'm pretty sure BB will go Defense in the 1st round.