Ninkovich and Banta-Cain, your NE Patriots starting OLB

[AzPatsFan]

WTF?

Cunningham flashed tremendous upside. He was in position to make a lot of plays but just couldn't finish them off. If he can develop upper body strength in this offseason and stay healthy, I'm more excited about him than rolling the dice on any of the collegiate pass rushers available to us where we were drafting this year.

Fletcher also was improving tremendously as he got playing time, nicely addressing the concern about how his small college pass-rush dominance would translate into the NFL. He's also has a ton of upside as an edge rusher (although he might end up being too valuable at ILB).

So for me Upside(Cunningham, Fletcher) > Expectation(Uncertainty(pick your 1st-- round collegian)).

Ninkovich is still improving but his ceiling is in sight and it's low. TBC should never be anything but a rotational option.

Also, the ILB group all have pass rushing skills, both from inside and on the edge. We have a lot of schematic pass rush opportunities with the LB group overall.

I see lots of reasons to hope for much improved pass defense overall next year, both from a potentially dramatically upgraded CB crew (McCourty year2, Bodden's return, and Dowling) and development of our very young LB crew.

A stouter DLINE by adding Warren and Stroud, and further development of Brace, Pryor, and Deaderick will also help indirectly by reducing play action opportunities and increasing the number of 2nd and 3rd and longs.

I'm not optimistic about Mike Wright's ability to stay healthy, so I'm discounting him as pass rusher, but if he comes back, we have two pretty interior line good penetrators in Wilfork and Wright.

This defense was coming together towards the end of last year and is getting back and adding some key people. It's very young aside from Warren, Stroud, and Bodden, all three of whom were entirely missing last year.

This defense could be a lot better than many here can apparently conceive. It'll come down to how much the young guys continue to improve, and how much luck we have with injuries.

I agree wholeheartedly. There are none so blind, as those who will not see.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Cunningham "flashed amazing upside"

Wow, how did I miss that....

It would help sometimes to open your eyes...

 

[patsfan13]

Cunningham made one noticable play all season against the Colts, and now he's got "amazing upside."

You'll ball wash anything BB does.

He ran over Oher and stripped Flacco in the Ravens game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWUUEn5P794


You fail.

Do you use the same hair dye as Kiper? I hear it has a negative effect on brain function.

 

[condon84]

If Cunningham had better upper body strength and tackling skills, he would've had 8 sacks

If Banta-Cain's name was Demarcus Ware, we'd have a Pro-Bowler.

If my aunt had a penis, she'd be my uncle.

You can do a lot with the word "if".

 

[condon84]

Unless we get Kiwanuka in FA, or swing a trade, we're stuck with who we had last year when our third down defense was awful. And people are fine with that? The lasting image of our season last year was of our defense allowing Sanchez to convert third downs after third downs in the playoff game. Our third down defense is atrocious. And people are fine with the status quo? My god, Belichick has some strong koolaid.

 

[Ring 6]

TBC is useful. So is Ninko. Vrabel was a star. But in what world did Woods develop? The world of sassy frass and moon pies? That's rich, even for you.

He was on the team for years. I was listing players acquired though each method, not evaluating Woods.

 

[Major **********]

Unless we get Kiwanuka in FA, or swing a trade, we're stuck with who we had last year when our third down defense was awful. And people are fine with that? The lasting image of our season last year was of our defense allowing Sanchez to convert third downs after third downs in the playoff game. Our third down defense is atrocious. And people are fine with the status quo? My god, Belichick has some strong koolaid.

I thought he was tendered as a second round pick. If so there is no way we get him.

 

[condon84]

I thought he was tendered as a second round pick. If so there is no way we get him.

Well that's a bummer. Who else is out there via FA? Are we really stuck with Ninko and Banta Cain/Cunningham as our OLBs?

 

[Ring 6]

I think you're missing the point of the draft. You're acting like picks are a sure thing and we never draft players that do not pan out.

No, actually I am describing the point of the draft. You do not use your highest picks for the players that you have to make the largest leap of faith on.

How many picks have we invested in a CB the past 4 years? Understandably so, CBs have been a weakness, so I get why they invest picks there.

They invest picks everywhere.

The more picks they use a position, the more chances they give themselves of finding someone there that can be productive. But I ask, why don't we use the same philosophy on a position that's been a glaring weakness for the past 4 years? We haven't had someone at OLB that can be counted on for pressure in a while. And it's directly effected the outcomes of our season because of it.

You simply cannot draft guys because they play a position if you don't feel they are quality and hope to get lucky and hit on one. That is self-desrtuctive.

You mean to tell me Cunningham is the only player that's been worthy of a draft pick the past 5 years? That's incredibly stupid if that's what you believe.

He isn't even the only OLB drafted in the last 5 years, so who is calling who stupid?
Is it really hard to believe that the one position that there is no one to draft who played it in college is the one that we pick least often? I thought that concept was simplistic enough for anyone to get.

 

[Kasmir]

If Banta-Cain's name was Demarcus Ware, we'd have a Pro-Bowler.

If my aunt had a penis, she'd be my uncle.

You can do a lot with the word "if".

That's ridiculous.

First approximation: strength can be developed, speed and quickness cannot.

Unless we have some specific reasons to believe that Cunningham is a particularly poor prospect for a strength program, it's perfectly reasonable to expect him to work on his weakness in the off-season. As has been observed here, as a pass rusher alone, Cunningham got his hands on the QB several times during the year but was unable to bring him down.

 

[mgcolby]

Well that's a bummer. Who else is out there via FA? Are we really stuck with Ninko and Banta Cain/Cunningham as our OLBs?

Because of the time since the lockout and lack of FA I can't remember who has been tagged or resigned. But Hali, Kiwi, Woodley, Lawson, Roth, and Wimbley were scheduled for FA.

 

[Ring 6]

Funny. We used to make fun of the Colts for their regular season prowess and post season choke jobs. We used to tell Colts fans that injuries were not an excuse for their teams playoff choke. After all look at all the injuries the Pats used to overcome and still be able to win when it counted most. How times have changed. Now our team has transformed into the early 2000 Colts and so have our fans. Are you guys excited about that AFC EAST banner your New England Colts are going to hang at Gillete next season. It will look great next to the AFC Division Playoff Participant banner.

I think you need to pay more attention to what you read.
No one has said 14-2 and a loss in the playoffs is something to be proud of.
Comments about 14-2 are with respect to the state of the team. The state of the team is 14-2 with a first round bye and second round loss.
The is different than 8-8, or 10-6 and a SB loss, or 2-14 or 13-3 and a SB win.
Only in your world is commenting on where the team is equal to being happy and not caring about SBs.
But you can keep going right ahead and making up attitudes to attribute to the people you disagree with that they never said, and you can continue to look like a boob.

 

[patsox23]

What a totally frantic, horse$hit thread.

 

[Patriots Nation NY]

What a totally frantic, horse$hit thread.

it's crazy .... smh at the entire thread ..:bricks:

 

[Ring 6]

That's a strong argument.

There really aren't any college players that can play the position. While there are a number of 3-4 college teams, they probably don't play the same system we do.

That logic, however, argues that the Cowboys were idiots to invest in Demarcus Ware, Green Bay in Clay Matthews, the Dolphins in getting Cameron Wake, KC in Tamba Hali, Baltimore in Terrell Suggs, SD in Shaun Philips, Pittsburgh in Lamarr Woodley,and so forth.

No, not really.
Its not that there are college players that CAN play the position, its that there aren't college players that ARE PLAYING IT. If they are big enough to play OLB in our 2 gap, they are on the DL in college. Many college DEs are too small, or not powerful enough to play OLB in our system.
Out system and other 3-4s are not the same. A one gap 3-4 and a 2 gap 3-4 require different skillsets.
Also most of the guys you listed are not so much 3-4 OLBs as the are really just 4-3 DEs that are standing up. They rush 100% of the time. Wake, Suggs, Ware, Hali play exactly like a 43 RDE like Freeney who are rushing the passer every play and playing run if the stumble upon one. Thats not our system.
Obviously, the transition from 43 DE to THAT is tremendously diffferent than to a 2gap OLB who must play 2 gap run D on the edge, blitz sometimes, cover sometimes.
It is possible that we could get that type of guy, have him rush the QB every snap, struggle along with his run D deficiencies and be more predicable, but BB has consistently for 20 years show that he favors having 2 OLBs that share the rush portion of the job and the coverage portion so he doesnt telegraph where the 4th rusher is coming from.

I think we are missing the distinction between 'designated 4th rusher' in many 3-4s and "OLB" in our system.

And given that argument, how do the Patriots replace McGinest, Vrabel, and Colvin?

Well, we drafted McGinest as a 43 DE and converted him. We signed Vrable as a FA after he 'grew up' in another system. We signed Colvin (and his replacement AD) as high level FAs. Phifer as a cheap FA. I suppose we replace them the same way. We drafted Cunnigham. We signed TBC as a cheaper FA. We picked up Ninkovich in a Vrabel-ish FA signing.
Its a very difficult position to fill, I don't know why we expect an easy answer.

Many of us believe the best opportunity is to someday invest in a smart, tough, athletic player that can develop in the system. Most agree that he might not start on his first opening day. But the lack of investment, year after year, is an increasing weakness.

Jermaine Cunnigham is exactly what you are asking for.
On the other side we have TBC, who had 10 sacks 2 years ago, and Ninkovich, and may very well be targetting a FA.
I just dont believe in picking a position to say we picked one and watch the guy not develop. Look at Crabel. Ironically Crable and Cunningham are just what you have been describing and everyone keeps saying we never draft what you are describing

 

[Sciz]

If Banta-Cain's name was Demarcus Ware, we'd have a Pro-Bowler.

If my aunt had a penis, she'd be my uncle.

You can do a lot with the word "if".

Except Cunningham can work on strength and tackling technique. Your examples are just you trying to be a smartass and completely ignoring the point.

 

[condon84]

Except Cunningham can work on strength and tackling technique. Your examples are just you trying to be a smartass and completely ignoring the point.

The point I was making was that Cunningham didn't really show enough to justify the if's and but's implication that he'd be an impact player just by simply improving his strength. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not as optimistic as some of these posters are.

The most telling evidence on how dire our OLB situation is is that even though I don't think Cunningham will be an impact player, he'll be our best OLB.

 

[condon84]

No, actually I am describing the point of the draft. You do not use your highest picks for the players that you have to make the largest leap of faith on.

Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Mayo. All first round draft choices that never played in a 3-4.

They invest picks everywhere.

How many picks have been invested in players for our OLB position? Given that this LB is a playmaking position of our defense, I find it odd that we've only invested just 1 pick withing the first two rounds for OLB since BB has been here.

You simply cannot draft guys because they play a position if you don't feel they are quality and hope to get lucky and hit on one. That is self-desrtuctive

.

Obviously if you don't feel a player isn't good enough, you don't draft him. But again, the amount of draft picks invested for OLBs is so minimal. Given that this is a major weakness of ours and has been for a number of years, they would have made a point in looking for possible players. I don't think it's a coincidence that we've drafted at least 5 CBs (4 within the first two rounds), all after we lost Asante, Gay, and Wilson.

He isn't even the only OLB drafted in the last 5 years, so who is calling who stupid?

Shawn Crable was a third round pick, so I guess he was a relatively high investment. My point is, as important as OLB position is for us, we don't act like it the way we avoid players for that position in the draft.

Is it really hard to believe that the one position that there is no one to draft who played it in college is the one that we pick least often? I thought that concept was simplistic enough for anyone to get.

Are we the only team that has unrealistic expectations for OLBs? Steelers always finds OLBs. The Packers transformed into a 3-4 team just 2 years ago and look at their OLBs. Cowboys found OLBs. Baltimore finds them too. You even have a 4-3 team like the Giants who took a DE (Kiwanuka) and are playing him at OLB in a 4-3. It's not like these guys don't exist coming out, it's just the unwillingness of the Patriots to invest a high round pick for them that's mind boggling. We finally use one last year, and he looks like he's the only one that has shown flashes, albeit in sporadic play, that can become an impact player as he develops. Why haven't we done it more often in the past? Woodley was there for the taking and so was Matthews. Our current crop of OLBs outside of Cunningham lack the athletic ability of becoming impact players. Banta-Cain has reached his ceiling, Ninko is a joke as a starter, Fletcher and Guyton would never sniff a snap at OLB for a team like the Steelers and Ravens. The guys that have the physical traits to become impact players are in high demand and go early. Coincidentally, we use this philosophy when we draft DLs but not so when we go for OLBs.

You really don't see any of this and find it odd?

 

[Ring 6]

Problem is, what if there is no free agency? Now, I'm no Thurgood Marshall, but it seems like this legal ho-down could go on for quite some time. If the lockout ends in August or Sept., there is no guarantee of FA.

Yes there is. The players without contracts have to be signed.

I think we can all agree that BB did not covet the defensive talent in this draft and probably had an eye toward grabbing someone in FA, but we have to have a FA period for that to happen. I was very optimistic before the stay was granted. Now I'm hoping we don't see this devolve into some legal malaise that goes on for months with endless stays and appeals and motions and before we know it we're starring down the start of the season with no resolution in sight.

Agreed, but there will be free agency unless there is no season/

 

[mgteich]

I agree that there will be free agency.

However, there doesn't HAVE to be free agency as we know it. Rather there could be free agency under in-season waiver rules.

If the CBA isn't signed say untol September, there could be a rookie salary schedule, all 2010 free agents could continue to be properties of their old teams at 2010 salaries plus an inflation adjustment for the 2011 season, and there would be roster expansions for the 2011 season. Normal waiver rules would start as stated in the new CBA.

While this is a mess, I'm not sure that frue free agency after season already started would be any better a situation.

BOTTOM LINE
I expect a new CBA in late July or early August with a short free agency period.

Yes there is. The players without contracts have to be signed.


Agreed, but there will be free agency unless there is no season/