Ninkovich and Banta-Cain, your NE Patriots starting OLB

[The Scrizz]

This is sad. Jordan was talked about by most analysts primarily as a 3-4 DE - here's what Gil Brandt had to say about him:

And yet no 3-4 team drafted him and he fell all the way to a 4-3 team at #24. Maybe Brandt was wrong.

Heyward not loving football? Yeah, the Steelers are renowned for taking guys like that. There were no questions about his effort or work ethic, and he came from a football family. Here's Yahoo's analyst on him:



Wilkerson an unfinished product? Brandt again:

A 1st round pick who has played against zero good competition is the definition of unfinished. So Brandt likes him, big whoop.

Brooks Reed? He's an ideal 3-4 pass rusher (not sure if he can play in space, but he should contribute as a situational rusher immediately) - so much so that Rex Ryan (who knows a thing or two about pass rushers) was strongly in favor of drafting him in Round 1.

If Ryan knows so much about pass rushers why don't the Jets have any? He knows about blitzing, I'll give him that. Why would anyone spend a high pick on a "situational" player that can't play in space?

Sheard? He was a guy who just about every pats fan was saying "it's ok, we'll get him day 2" after the trade out at 28; now, he's not a fit?

Like I said - sour grapes.

C'mon, be honest - you're simply saying "I trust Bill Belichick to have made the right picks". It's not a crazy position to take, given his track record (though he's a much better coach than a drafter). But to say that there were no 3-4 front 7 guys worth taking between picks 14 and 34 is just ludicrous.

Obviously he didn't see DE as a huge need (or didn't like the ones available) and exactly 3 3-4 DE/OLB were taken between those picks (all 3 DE, Liuget, Wilkerson, and Heyward) so it's not like everybody was smashing down their doors for them. None of the amazing OLB that would instantly fix the D as so many people claim were picked in that range.

It is not ludicrous to say that Belichick didn't see any 3-4 guys worth taking.

 

[condon84]

If you can't recognize the difference between a DL playing a different scheme and a DE becoming an OLB, what's the point of having a football discussion?
Are you seriously trying to say evaluating a DT playing mostly 1 gap as to how he will do in a 2 gap is the same thing as evaluating how a 43 DE will play as an OLB in a 2gap 34? Come on, you cant be that dense.
Your comments about Mayo indicate you know nothing about LB play.

Yes I know the difference. My point was both are difficult transitions. How can you rate one more difficult than the other?





]

Who said he was?

Obviously, you do. You defend EVERYTHING BB does.

Wait, which is it? First you said he didnt draft any then you said he made mistakes?

Find the quote where I said he didn't draft any.

So let me get this straight. Your answer is that the reason we don't draft OLBs is that BB knows we need them, can easily evaluate them, and just chooses to not draft them?

Find me the quote where I said this too.

What team has every player at every position that can play for them?

Stop acting stupid. The point I made was that our OLBs needed an upgrade and referred other current OLBS who can play succeed in our defense. Your insistence that these other good OLBs can't succeed in our system where we have TBC and Ninko as our starting OLBs is the crux of the problem. Until you realize how dumb that thinking is, you're hopeless.

So, you are saying probowl players are good. Fascinating.

Look behind you, the point went right over you head.

Because you are isolating players based on sack numbers.
Why not incude Dwight Freeney? You are talking mostly about guys who are 43 DEs that happen to be standing up.
Want to discuss Matthews and Suggs ability to play the run? They ARE worse than our OLBs in that area. But you wouldn't know because you are counting sacks.

Where did I say ever referred to sack numbers? You are making sh!t up again. That's all you got. The guys I mentioned are all OLBs. Yeah, they were DE's when the played college ball, but guess what, so were our OLBs!! LOL.

Keep insisting that Woodley, Suggs, Matthews, etc are inferior to TBC and Ninko. It's pure comedy.

Never said he was perfect. I explained the challenges in drafting OLBs in our system. You on the other hand are using 'we aint good there' as your in depth analysis for the draft strategy.

I'm using the history of OLBs we've drafted as judgement whether we've succeeded or failed in drafting and developing OLBs. We have Ninko and TBC as our starting OLBs. That's proof right there. It's not an opinion. If you look at our roster, Ninko and TBC are starters. Did you watch last season. TBC and Ninko started majority of our games. Maybe you should start watching games instead of fantasizing about other stuff.

Right, and BB and the organization don't say glowing things about every player on every opponent when they are asked right?
But wait. You said BB sucks at evaluating OLBs so why would his opinion be right for you now?

LOL!!! BB and Nick Casserio said so themselves how good of a player Matthews is, and you still don't accept it. BB sucks at evaluating OLBs coming out of the draft. This interview was given after Matthews was already playing in the NFL. LOL. Try to keep up.

When did I say he would suck here? His poor run defense would be exposed, and the fact that we do not send all out blitzes that try to free up an unblocked blitzer would reduce that sack total you are so focussed on.
There is no doubt that there are players who can succeed in different systems, I have discussed that dozens of times despite my inability to grasp it. But the fact that some can is not proof that any can. Mathews skill set is not best suited for what we do. Would start? Of course. Would be be reasopnably effective? Sure. But you are looking at what he does in a different system and calling him a first round miss and I am looking at what he would do in our system and saying he is a stretch. Can you compehend that?

So you can understand that other players can succeed in our system. Wow. That took a long pounding, but maybe there's hope for you.............

No, I am describing what he is. He plays pretty good run D, has above average cover skills for an OLB, and is not asked to rush the passer an awful lot. Yet you want him to get sacks from coverage? on runs? from the bench?

Wait, are you saying TBC plays the run pretty good? Surely you kid.

5 times and you still haven't answered the question.
What is your explanation for why BB doesnt draft OLBs?

My imagination isn't good enough to come up with an answer to that question.

What are you basing his evaluation skills on? Crable who couldn't stay healthy? Cunningham?

What am I basing this on? Based on who has started at OLB. Proof is in the pudding. What more do you need?

I will say it one more time. The difference between evaluating OLBs in our system and almost every other position is that you have no opportunity to look at film and see whehter they have the skillset on the field to do what we ask of them. That is fact, although it conflicts with your griping so you seem to not want to accept it.
Using your highest pick on the position you have the least legitimate data on is extremely risky. BB is very against risk with high picks. Its really that simple. Put it this way, there is an inherent downgrade due to uncertainty of a college DE that we will ask to play contain and off tackle, 2 gap defense, drop into coverage, and blitz when there is zero film of him ever doing anything resembling that.
Or do you have a better explanation why we don't draft OLBs high?

The entire draft is a crapshoot. Why do you think BB accumulates so many draft choices? The more he rolls the dice, the more chances he gives himself of picking a player who will be productive. Unfortunately, he's failed at drafting and developing players at OLB compared to the way he's done well at DB, OL, TE, QB, and DL.

 

[MoneyFX]

Can someone tell me why the **** did Belichick not draft a pass rusher!!!!!!! Seriously, we're gonna have another first round exit in the playoffs next season if we don't upgrade at that position. The only way that the defense could be great is if the secondary plays phenomenal next season. McCourty will have to continue his brilliance, Dowling will have to do a solid job with the slot in the nickel, and Bodden must return to 2009 form. Better coverage = More time for the pass rush to get to the QB. I guess Coach wants to upgrade the secondary.

 

[nabwong]

I liked him as a raw canvas from college. I like him even more now that some other team has invested 3-5 years grooming him, a la Mr. Vrabel.

And he's only 27-28. Had 50 tackles last year.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes I know the difference. My point was both are difficult transitions. How can you rate one more difficult than the other?

How can you not? Guys that we draft to play 34 OLB have not used most of the techniques and discioplines we need from them in their life. And it doesnt matter how difficult the transition is, what matters is how difficult the analysis of the player is.




]

Obviously, you do. You defend EVERYTHING BB does.

Completely untrue. I haven't 'defended' him in this topic. I have said over and over that he has access to mulititudes more information than we do, and he is substantially more qualified to assess it than we are. His track record says he is right more than anyone in the NFL. I can guarantee he is right more than you.
So instead of whining and trashing the guy who is doing a great job, I try to understand the reasoning. In the end I find out he knew things while making that decision that I could not have.

Find the quote where I said he didn't draft any.

That has been the whole thread. You are a broken record about it.

Find me the quote where I said this too.

You are joking right? I asked a if that was your point because I have asked at least 10 times what your explanation is and you REFUSE to answer, so I'm guessing now based upon your comments.
How can I quote what your opinion is if you wont state it?

Stop acting stupid.

Stupid is as stupid does.

The point I made was that our OLBs needed an upgrade and referred other current OLBS who can play succeed in our defense. Your insistence that these other good OLBs can't succeed in our system where we have TBC and Ninko as our starting OLBs is the crux of the problem. Until you realize how dumb that thinking is, you're hopeless.[//quote]
You need to read more and write less.
Which did I say can't succeed in our system? I went to great lengths to explain to you that their skills fit other systems better, and although they would be good here too at the things that make them successful elsewhere but they would do them a lot less here, and would need to do other things they don't do so well. Why do I need to write everything twice for you?

Look behind you, the point went right over you head.

Thats just it there wasn't one.

Where did I say ever referred to sack numbers? You are making sh!t up again. That's all you got. The guys I mentioned are all OLBs. Yeah, they were DE's when the played college ball, but guess what, so were our OLBs!! LOL.

Your list are mostly guys who get sacks and do little else.

Keep insisting that Woodley, Suggs, Matthews, etc are inferior to TBC and Ninko. It's pure comedy.

I didnt say that now did I? I never mentioned Woodley. He's a great player I wish we had him. Matthews and Suggs are in fact worse run defenders than Ninkovich.

I'm using the history of OLBs we've drafted as judgement whether we've succeeded or failed in drafting and developing OLBs. We have Ninko and TBC as our starting OLBs. That's proof right there. It's not an opinion. If you look at our roster, Ninko and TBC are starters. Did you watch last season. TBC and Ninko started majority of our games. Maybe you should start watching games instead of fantasizing about other stuff.

So since Crable was injury prone BB cant assess OLBs? Got it.
Cunningham is the 'starter' at OLB. He plays more snaps than either of those.
I saw every play of every game. At least twice, and most of them around 4-5 times.You?

LOL!!! BB and Nick Casserio said so themselves how good of a player Matthews is, and you still don't accept it.

OK, so every opponent BB has ever talked about is good because he praises everyone? Got it.

BB sucks at evaluating OLBs coming out of the draft. This interview was given after Matthews was already playing in the NFL. LOL. Try to keep up.

So your position is BB evaluated Matthews and thought he sucked, then watched him play for the Packers and decided he was great? That comment about how he always looks blocked and sometimes spins off it into the play had me wanted to start carving his bust for Canton myself

So you can understand that other players can succeed in our system. Wow. That took a long pounding, but maybe there's hope for you.............

See this is why you are a tool. Here's a hint. When someone disagrees with you it does not mean they disagree with every aspect of everythng you think and feel the answer is the total opposite of your opinion.
Clearly you think it is because you think you are winning a point when you make up something I did not say and attribute it to me, then say I'm worng because what you made up for me is wrong.

Wait, are you saying TBC plays the run pretty good? Surely you kid[

Decent, pretty good, acceptable. Somewhere in that vicinity.

My imagination isn't good enough to come up with an answer to that question.

So wait a minute. we are wasting all this time and internet space because when I explain the difficulty in assessing OLBs and the fact that because of that we tend not to pick them high, and ask if you disagree what do you think the reason is and your answer is "Duh, I have no clue" Brilliant.

What am I basing this on? Based on who has started at OLB. Proof is in the pudding. What more do you need?

It absolutely is. BB has been here 11 years and they are the second best 11 year period that ANY FRANCHISE HAS EVER HAD.
Are we the NE OLBs trying to impress people with our OLBs, or the NE PAtriots trying to win games, and Championships?
The very reason you are ignorant about this issue is a strong factor in why this team has been so good. They use expensive resources on high probability decisions.

The entire draft is a crapshoot. Why do you think BB accumulates so many draft choices? The more he rolls the dice, the more chances he gives himself of picking a player who will be productive. Unfortunately, he's failed at drafting and developing players at OLB compared to the way he's done well at DB, OL, TE, QB, and DL.

But his job isnt OLB coach. His job is to build the team. It sounds like now you are saying he shouldn't draft and develop players at other positions he should only worry about OLBs. In order to have this focus on OLB he would have had to not draft players he did that helped in other areas.
Can you not understand that the overall results have been tremendous, so nitpicking one position and pretending it exists in a vacuum is silly?

 

[Sciz]

This is sad. Jordan was talked about by most analysts primarily as a 3-4 DE - here's what Gil Brandt had to say about him:

Heyward not loving football? Yeah, the Steelers are renowned for taking guys like that. There were no questions about his effort or work ethic, and he came from a football family. Here's Yahoo's analyst on him:



Wilkerson an unfinished product? Brandt again:

Brooks Reed? He's an ideal 3-4 pass rusher (not sure if he can play in space, but he should contribute as a situational rusher immediately) - so much so that Rex Ryan (who knows a thing or two about pass rushers) was strongly in favor of drafting him in Round 1.

Sheard? He was a guy who just about every pats fan was saying "it's ok, we'll get him day 2" after the trade out at 28; now, he's not a fit?

Like I said - sour grapes.

C'mon, be honest - you're simply saying "I trust Bill Belichick to have made the right picks". It's not a crazy position to take, given his track record (though he's a much better coach than a drafter). But to say that there were no 3-4 front 7 guys worth taking between picks 14 and 34 is just ludicrous.

I had all of these guys off my Pats prospects board except Wilkerson, and that was because his upside looked higher than any other DE on the roster under 30 years old. I'm sure you can find a few posts on here where I specifically say that he'd need a year before being a starting DE.

Jordan is not a 2-gap end. He's too light, doesn't look to have a whole lot of room to add bulk, and was more of a "go around" than a "go through" type of guy.

Heyward was getting tons of praise for his incredible bowl game at the end of last season. If he's that awesome, where was he all season? There are obvious motor concerns there. You know where physically talented guys with big red flags go? In the 7th, right where Deaderick did.

I don't care what some other guy says. It was blatantly obvious that Wilkerson's technique sucks. It wasn't even a case of poor technique with flashes of perfect technique, like Solder. Wilkerson had bad technique all the time. Even the good plays he had were despite having poor technique. He'll do nothing this next season, and I would've been saying that if he were a Patriot too.

Reed is a situational pass rusher in the Patriots' defense. Absolutely nothing more.

Sheard is not a 3-4 OLB. He's a 4-3 DE with horrendous athleticism in space. Guess what! He went to a 4-3 team! Anybody who wanted Sheard to Reed either doesn't fully understand the Patriots' scheme or was willing to reach for a band-aid solution to the 3rd down problem.

 

[Doggin94it]

And yet no 3-4 team drafted him and he fell all the way to a 4-3 team at #24. Maybe Brandt was wrong.

All the way to 24? Wow (especially given that exactly 1 3-4 team went DE ahead of Jordan between the Bills taking Dareus and Jordan going at 24). Also, that Randy Moss kid is probably not going to be very good, considering how many teams passed on him.

I'm sorry, but this post-facto crap (about a guy who was a first round pick to one of the few real top Defensive minds the league) is a horrible way to evaluate a draft.

But here, lets try this - find me one (just one) decent draft publication that says Jordan was a misfit in the 3-4.

If Ryan knows so much about pass rushers why don't the Jets have any? He knows about blitzing, I'll give him that. Why would anyone spend a high pick on a "situational" player that can't play in space?

Because they drafted Gholston and signed Pace the year before he got there (so they weren't about to invest big at OLB in the 2009 offseason) and were handicapped by the top 4 rules last offseason (and look like they will be again).

Obviously he didn't see DE as a huge need (or didn't like the ones available) and exactly 3 3-4 DE/OLB were taken between those picks (all 3 DE, Liuget, Wilkerson, and Heyward) so it's not like everybody was smashing down their doors for them. None of the amazing OLB that would instantly fix the D as so many people claim were picked in that range.

It is not ludicrous to say that Belichick didn't see any 3-4 guys worth taking.

It's ludicrous to say that there were no 3-4 players worth taking between 17 and 64. It's one thing to say that other players filled more important needs (CB, OT), or that the value of the trade was better than the value of the player (which is debatable, but at least somewhat defensible). But to suggest that no 3-4 front 7 player carried even a second round grade on the Pats' board once Kerrigan was selected is insane.

 

[The Scrizz]

All the way to 24? Wow (especially given that exactly 1 3-4 team went DE ahead of Jordan between the Bills taking Dareus and Jordan going at 24). Also, that Randy Moss kid is probably not going to be very good, considering how many teams passed on him.

So now Cam Jordan is Randy Moss? Please. A bunch of 3-4 teams passed on him before the Pats did. The fact that only 1 went DE actually says that maybe the 3/4 DE's were a little over-rated this year.

I'm sorry, but this post-facto crap (about a guy who was a first round pick to one of the few real top Defensive minds the league) is a horrible way to evaluate a draft.

But here, lets try this - find me one (just one) decent draft publication that says Jordan was a misfit in the 3-4.

What exactly do draft publications have to do with anything? Find me one actual NFL decision-maker who drafted him to play in the 3-4. Just one.


Because they drafted Gholston and signed Pace the year before he got there (so they weren't about to invest big at OLB in the 2009 offseason) and were handicapped by the top 4 rules last offseason (and look like they will be again).

So why didn't the pass-rushing genius find one somewhere else? He knows so much about pass rushers.

It's ludicrous to say that there were no 3-4 players worth taking between 17 and 64. It's one thing to say that other players filled more important needs (CB, OT), or that the value of the trade was better than the value of the player (which is debatable, but at least somewhat defensible). But to suggest that no 3-4 front 7 player carried even a second round grade on the Pats' board once Kerrigan was selected is insane.

Ah yes, let's move the chains. First it was a 3-4 player between 17 and 34 and now it's a 3-4 player between 17 and 64. Do you even read your own posts? Maybe they would have taken Jordan at 28, maybe they would have taken Reed at 56. who knows? all we do know is that they weren't taken at slots we could have taken them in which means we know that Belichick values them less than the players he took. Since he passed on a bunch of these guys at both 28 and 33, it's safe to say that none of them carried a 1st round grade.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Ah yes, let's move the chains. First it was a 3-4 player between 17 and 34 and now it's a 3-4 player between 17 and 64. Do you even read your own posts? Maybe they would have taken Jordan at 28, maybe they would have taken Reed at 56. who knows? all we do know is that they weren't taken at slots we could have taken them in which means we know that Belichick values them less than the players he took. Since he passed on a bunch of these guys at both 28 and 33, it's safe to say that none of them carried a 1st round grade.

BB passed on Wilkerson and Heyward twice. That tells me something. He also passed on Houston, Sheard, Reed, etc. at least 3 times. Passing on them at #33 tells me a lot. The Pats could have traded down from #33 and taken a passrusher from the Sheard/Reed/Houston grouping if they wanted sometime in the mid 40s but they chose not to do so. Plain reading - they liked Dowling better.

 

[RayClay]

This is sad. Jordan was talked about by most analysts primarily as a 3-4 DE - here's what Gil Brandt had to say about him:



Heyward not loving football? Yeah, the Steelers are renowned for taking guys like that. There were no questions about his effort or work ethic, and he came from a football family. Here's Yahoo's analyst on him:



Wilkerson an unfinished product? Brandt again:



Brooks Reed? He's an ideal 3-4 pass rusher (not sure if he can play in space, but he should contribute as a situational rusher immediately) - so much so that Rex Ryan (who knows a thing or two about pass rushers) was strongly in favor of drafting him in Round 1.

Sheard? He was a guy who just about every pats fan was saying "it's ok, we'll get him day 2" after the trade out at 28; now, he's not a fit?

Like I said - sour grapes.

C'mon, be honest - you're simply saying "I trust Bill Belichick to have made the right picks". It's not a crazy position to take, given his track record (though he's a much better coach than a drafter). But to say that there were no 3-4 front 7 guys worth taking between picks 14 and 34 is just ludicrous.

So you think writers know more than coaches which players fit their schemes and yearly personnel strategy?

It's actually pretty funny to go back and read some of those things a couple years later, you should try it.

 

[Deus Irae]

So you think writers know more than coaches which players fit their schemes and yearly personnel strategy?

It's actually pretty funny to go back and read some of those things a couple years later, you should try it.

The answer to the bolded part, and history demonstrates this conclusively, is


"Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.".

 

[RayClay]

So you think writers know more than coaches which players fit their schemes and yearly personnel strategy?

It's actually pretty funny to go back and read some of those things a couple years later, you should try it.

Also, Gil Brandt is 78 years old. If you think he travels the country personally evaluating 300 college players, or even stays awake long enough to watch that much tape, I've got some swampland in Florida for you. These guys see some of the players once, sometimes with a nagging injury and they share a lot of the same scouting reports.

That's why you get a hilarious moment like Hair hat, or one of the other "experts"
reading the generic report saying Vereen is quick but can't cut and elude, while they show a tape of him faking multiple guys out of their socks. Go back and look if you taped it.

These guys have a gig and tons of space to fill and they have no responsibility for any of it, brand new every year.

Go back and read the whole reports and compare to successful, and other, players you see with your own eyes.

 

[RayClay]

The answer to the bolded part, and history demonstrates this conclusively, is


"Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.".

Save the draft order and reports, then look back. They are often wrong even on nationally publicized players.

Of course crappy teams are wrong, usually in agreement with them, but that's besides the point.

You're right half the time flipping a coin too.

 

[Deus Irae]

Save the draft order and reports, then look back. They are often wrong even on nationally publicized players.

So are the NFL talent selectors, and that includes Belichick.

Of course crappy teams are wrong, usually in agreement with them, but that's besides the point.

You're right half the time flipping a coin too.

Well, you've just undercut your own claim here, so... ok

 

[RayClay]

By the way, I like Brandt, he had a lot of experience in the last century.

Now Kiper is just a complete fraud. He just grabbed the mantle of Buscbaum the draft genius and figured he could be a non football knowledge draft expert, if he sol himself.

Probably knows less about how the actual game is played than the average poster on this site. Obviously has the resources to collect tons of useful information, but has no idea how that information is applied on a football field.

 

[RayClay]

Listen to all these "experts". they were scrambling to figure out who our 1st rounder was, then they got their notebooks out.

Apparently the guy sucks, but seems to have a great chance on special teams. They said that about three times.

No catch up speed, picked too high.

Like I say, hope this McCourty guy can at least help on teams and maybe play some nickel.

YouTube - 2010 New England Patriots 1st Round Pick-Devin McCourty

 

[RayClay]

So are the NFL talent selectors, and that includes Belichick.



Well, you've just undercut your own claim here, so... ok

Oh, play your rhetorical games Deus, we expect no less. Check out the vid though, please. These guys profess to be experts on 250-300 players, so they should have the first round nailed, right?

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh, play your rhetorical games Deus, we expect no less. Check out the vid though, please. These guys profess to be experts on 250-300 players, so they should have the first round nailed, right?

I'm not playing games. You're making an attack on people, and I'm responding to it. I look forward to your defense of Matt Millen, perhaps without the stupid personal shots at me.

Are you fool enough to think that Belichick nails the first round, 100%, year after year?

Does Belichick never make a bad pick? After all, no one knows his team, or its needs better than he does, so he should hit at just about 100%, right? After all, he's the expert.


Nobody's perfect when it comes to the draft.

 

[supafly]

Whats with all of this "we" and "we're" BS...since when did you sign a contract with the Patriots?

Good god man, stop your freaking whining. Patriots had junk depth at running back, cb and OL...all needs addressed.

I don't know how any of these drafted players will develop. but I know this, you sure as hell don't either.

When he says 'we' he is representing the fanbase-- you know, the ones that end up putting forth the most money, the most attention, and are posting on a fan site in the month of May at 3:30 am?? (during a lockout--no less) Nothing wrong with using the term.

Most of the 'we's' on here have shelled out approx. 500-1000 per season minimum whether it be for Sunday Ticket, game tickets and parking, jerseys etc. So yes, I very much agree with him.

I hardly doubt that he suddenly feels as though he is the starting ILB for the team.

Many of us make the mistake of seeing 'we,' but I don't really think it should be criticized.

Other than that slight nitpick, I am in total agreement with you regarding your point to him. Actually, I couldn't possibly agree more. I am tired of the excessive whining too, believe me.

 

[Doggin94it]

The answer to the bolded part, and history demonstrates this conclusively, is


"Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.".

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to just man up and say "look, as far as I'm concerned, Belichick passing on a player trumps all other data for purposes of evaluation; if Belly passed, then he isn't a fit"