Ninkovich and Banta-Cain, your NE Patriots starting OLB

[Sciz]

I lost the exact quote from Belichick, but basically he said that if you pick somebody who fills a need but you don't feel is a good enough prospect for the pick, then you solved nothing and have to fill the need again next year. That's what it was like for DE and OLB this year. After pick 14, there were no front 7 defenders worth of a top-64 pick.

 

[AzPatsFan]

**** off...Ninko and Cunningham had little to do with us going 14-2. Put any name in there and it wouldn't probably make a difference.BB has ****ed up drafts before so it's very legit to question him.

Not by the likes of you. If you don't like 14-2, I invite you to find a team that goes 2-14 regularly more to your liking.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

We can't sign people once the lockout is over? Did Aliens steal all the FAs?

It's just me but don't you think Veteran linebackers will be able to provide more for us this year than rookies who may not have any contact with their new team during the offseason?

What if the lockout is over in September? Could very well happen. In that case, more than likely there is no FA.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

You draft them (McGinest, Cunningham, TBC) you develop them (Ninkovich, Woods, Vrabel, Chatham) you sign them as FAs after someone else develops them (Colvin, Pfifer, Thomas).
It isn't easy. Somehow you seem to think that means we are supposed to spend high picks on guys who have never done it?

TBC is useful. So is Ninko. Vrabel was a star. But in what world did Woods develop? The world of sassy frass and moon pies? That's rich, even for you.

 

[randomk1]

Not by the likes of you. If you don't like 14-2, I invite you to find a team that goes 2-14 regularly more to your liking.

Everybody keeps bringing up 14-2 like it means something. Is that an excuse for drafting how we did? Last i checked the green bay packers are the world champions and we got our asses kicked at home by a division rival.

 

[Major **********]

Funny. We used to make fun of the Colts for their regular season prowess and post season choke jobs. We used to tell Colts fans that injuries were not an excuse for their teams playoff choke. After all look at all the injuries the Pats used to overcome and still be able to win when it counted most. How times have changed. Now our team has transformed into the early 2000 Colts and so have our fans. Are you guys excited about that AFC EAST banner your New England Colts are going to hang at Gillete next season. It will look great next to the AFC Division Playoff Participant banner.

 

[Froob]

I would think that if the terrible trio could get in the same zip code as Sanchez we might have had a better chance.
Our 3rd down defense has been horse **** the last few years. The pass rush unit is a big part of the problem. Yes the DB haven't covered themselves in glory either but it seems like while we throw plenty of pics to those particular positions (CB/S) in hopes to fix it but in 11 drafts we used how many 1st or second round pics on the pass Rush? Where are our pass rushers going to come from if we don't think anyone on 11 drafts is worth drafting? Will they hatch them in the bowels of Gillete? Or is the stork going to bring them.

We've had worse 3rd down d in the league since 2008(not even exaggerating). If Pats can't snag Kiwen(dunno how to spell it) that guy from the giants it's going to be a bad draft.

 

[State]

Ouch.

Double ouch if one of the hefty Jets rookies makes plays, mashing up the interior of our offensive line.

If we lose Mankins, it won't be a very good interior. Not like most winning play-off teams'.

 

[bucky]

Mark Sanchez lighting us up has nothing to do with our pathetic pass rush?

I'd have to disagree with that. At least maybe they could put up their hands and try to knock the ball down. Of course this is not totally relevant to this thread.

 

[BTTA]

I lost the exact quote from Belichick, but basically he said that if you pick somebody who fills a need but you don't feel is a good enough prospect for the pick, then you solved nothing and have to fill the need again next year. That's what it was like for DE and OLB this year. After pick 14, there were no front 7 defenders worth of a top-64 pick.

And I'd wager that he'd suggest that those players in the top 14 weren't worth the money he'd have to pay for them.

People forget too easily that by hiring one of the top picks in the draft, we have to fire someone else, because they are so expensive. The Pats will be able to sign this year's entire draft, and next year's, for what the Panthers are paying Cam Newton, and for what Denver will be paying Von Miller.

 

[letekro]

Actually, its ninkovich and cunningham as far as i remember
banta by the end of the season became more situational.

the only thing i see BB has selected players in position who can play even with limited camp /ota

That's exactly right. A WR and OLB conversion would've done ZERO this year. Even with camp it takes these positions at least two years to get it together.

 

[condon84]

Maybe this will help you.
There are college CBs, Safeties, TEs, G, T, etc, etc.
There really are not college 34 2 gap OLBs.
If you are 'investing' your pick, would you think it was wise to use a really valuable one on a guy who has never played the position you are drafting him for?

I think you're missing the point of the draft. You're acting like picks are a sure thing and we never draft players that do not pan out. How many picks have we invested in a CB the past 4 years? Understandably so, CBs have been a weakness, so I get why they invest picks there. The more picks they use a position, the more chances they give themselves of finding someone there that can be productive. But I ask, why don't we use the same philosophy on a position that's been a glaring weakness for the past 4 years? We haven't had someone at OLB that can be counted on for pressure in a while. And it's directly effected the outcomes of our season because of it.

You mean to tell me Cunningham is the only player that's been worthy of a draft pick the past 5 years? That's incredibly stupid if that's what you believe.

 

[Urgent]

We have picked LBs. We have also signed them as FAs.
You do realize that drafting an OLB means you are picking a player to play a position he has never played in his life right?
Our 34 2 gap OLBs are typically around 260 lbs.
There isnt a LB in college that big.
Many teams have DEs that are smaller than we need OLBs to be to run our system.

Are you really saying that its a good plan to use our highest draft picks on players who haven't played the position?

Let me be proactive about your likely response.
If you really are going to say "Then we should change the system" you really need to look at the results before you go down that indefensible road.

That's a strong argument.

There really aren't any college players that can play the position. While there are a number of 3-4 college teams, they probably don't play the same system we do.

That logic, however, argues that the Cowboys were idiots to invest in Demarcus Ware, Green Bay in Clay Matthews, the Dolphins in getting Cameron Wake, KC in Tamba Hali, Baltimore in Terrell Suggs, SD in Shaun Philips, Pittsburgh in Lamarr Woodley,and so forth.

And given that argument, how do the Patriots replace McGinest, Vrabel, and Colvin?

Many of us believe the best opportunity is to someday invest in a smart, tough, athletic player that can develop in the system. Most agree that he might not start on his first opening day. But the lack of investment, year after year, is an increasing weakness.

 

[Rob0729]

Did free agency start already. The fact of the matter is Belichick prefers to fill the OLB position through free agency over the draft. It can take two to three years for a rookie DE to make the complete conversion to OLB in the 3-4 (that is why I am hopeful for a breakout year for Cunningham).

The good news is that many of the teams that are looking for players who can play OLB in the 3-4 filled their need in the last two days. The Pats won't have nearly as much competition for the top free agents in this area.

I think Mathias Kiwunika might be a target. He doesn't have 3-4 experience, but does have two gap experience. I think he can benefit with his hand off the ground. Yeah, he didn't do that well playing OLB for the Giants, but they played him as a 4-3 OLB.

People need to see how free agency goes before they biatch about the OLB situation.

 

[Major **********]

If college doesn't have any 3-4 OLBs then where are they going to come from? Mars? Last I checked every player in the NFL played in college before they were drafted? If they were not 3-4 2 gap OLBs when they came out of college what is this magic potion that other teams give them that turns them into that? Is it Pixie dust? Are we even sure that the 3-4 2 gap OLBs are even real and not some mythical creature? Did they go the way of the dinosaurs? Is Steven Spielberg going to make a movie about how some Mad scientist coach cloned them and stuck them in an island to make a tourist attraction out of them? Or maybe they are going to be a plot device on the next Star Trek. Some unknown alien device is heading toward earth and only the song of the long extinct 3-4 2 gap OLB can save Earth from total annihilation? Kirk and the enterprise will have to go back in time and pluck LT and bring him back with him to the future to save us all.

 

[Major **********]

What happens when FA goes by and BB doesn't pick any pass rushers up? Then what? Is it back to hanging our hat on that fabled year 2 jump? I hope to Good its forwards and not a Butler like backwards leap.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Yup. Unless Cunningham can break up this amazing tandem, this is what we'll be looking forward to.

So we can count you as opposed to any upgrades via free agency or trade?

Seriously - I know the order of how these things transpire is off this year, but it really does seem like people are forgetting that the draft is just one part of the equation.

 

[jefmblrd]

I've been posting that I believe Ninkovich was going to be a player since he caught my attention when he first came here. He had a pretty solid season last year and should be better this year. As for Cunningham, he came along in his first season and should be better as well. TBC can be effective in a complimentary role and there is always the possibility that there is a FA out there who might come in and help. Could they be better at the OLB position? Of course, but their starters are on a positive trajectory.

 

[JMarr]

That's a strong argument.

There really aren't any college players that can play the position. While there are a number of 3-4 college teams, they probably don't play the same system we do.

That logic, however, argues that the Cowboys were idiots to invest in Demarcus Ware, Green Bay in Clay Matthews, the Dolphins in getting Cameron Wake, KC in Tamba Hali, Baltimore in Terrell Suggs, SD in Shaun Philips, Pittsburgh in Lamarr Woodley,and so forth.

And given that argument, how do the Patriots replace McGinest, Vrabel, and Colvin?

Many of us believe the best opportunity is to someday invest in a smart, tough, athletic player that can develop in the system. Most agree that he might not start on his first opening day. But the lack of investment, year after year, is an increasing weakness.

You're right that players like that are extremely rare. Probably why BB is so reluctant to take a flyer on OLBs like he did with Crable--just nobody out there he really has liked. Out of all the guys you listed, Matthews is the only one to come out in the last 4 or 5 years. Think about it--1 freakin stud OLB pass rusher drafted in the entire league since 2006.


Paying TBC relatively big money, drafting Cunningham high, and paying so much for Adalius Thomas and Derrick Burgess shows that he doesn't ignore the importance of the position by any stretch.

 

[Urgent]

That's exactly right. A WR and OLB conversion would've done ZERO this year. Even with camp it takes these positions at least two years to get it together.

I'll go ahead and disagree with this popular view.
If the Patriots had moved up three or four picks for either Quinn or Kerrigan, they would immediately be the best OLB on the team.
If they had taken Reed or Justin Houston, they probably would be rookie starters opposite Cunningham.

While it normally takes a couple years - I totally agree - the current weakness is such that Quinn, Kerrigan, Reed, or Houston would immediately be better than Ninkovich or TBC.