TheBaronPatriot
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Fair enough.
DW Toys
Colvin was 6"3 250
TBC is 6"2 250 as is Ninko
Miller is big enough
It's not like he's 5"11
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DW Toys
People suggest Miller is puny. He is up to 246 and 6'3" and is essentially bigger than Mayo. He is bigger the 3-4 Colts DE Robert Mathis. He is bigger than Harrison and Dumervil who ain't too bad!DW Toys
Can you tell me more about this guy?
I agree with this assessment as well.. I think they most likely will get another Jermaine Cunningham in the 2nd or 3rd round.. I also am starting to think that they won't be grabbing the DE's that everyone thinks they will grab.. BB's recent philosophy is grabbing big DT's and converting them.. Look for a possible Phil Taylor pick..
And has Mayo ever been asked to play LOLB or ROLB for the Patriots?
And has Mayo ever been asked to play LOLB or ROLB for the Patriots?
I don't think so. He plays a very different position where being slightly smaller is optimal. Has Mathis ever had to set a hard edge? Hell no, he swims towards the QB and then catches the ball carrier if he goes by.
As long as the Pats are playing a 2-gap base 3-4, the OLBs have to be big to be successful. Don't use comparisons of players who play dramatically different positions in different systems unless you think Belichek wants to change his fundamental defensive system to suit your whims.
Colvin was 6"3 250
TBC is 6"2 250 as is Ninko
Miller is big enough
It's not like he's 5"11
Cameron Jordan & Willie McGinest - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston
"I think the outside linebacker group was a little bit different. Generally speaking, I'd say there were more shorter players, maybe a little less speed than what we've seen, but maybe a little more power with good production. There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 guys in the [40-yard dash], and not a lot of 6-4, 6-5 guys. There was a much smaller pool of those players."
Are there other quotes mentioning the 6'4, 6'5 height 4.6 40 speed or is this the quote that everyone refers to when talking about the Patriots OLB height?
Why would he have to change his system to put in a 6' 3" 246lb OLB?That is plenty big enough. I don't get it. Doesn't Harrison play OLB for the Steelers? Dumervile was dominating as a pass rushing 3-4 OLB. Check their size.
I could see if you were talking OLB Dontay Moch at 6'1" and 230lbs.
DW Toys
P.S. Why is it optimal to have a small ILB? I am not buying that one.
Cameron Jordan & Willie McGinest - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston
"I think the outside linebacker group was a little bit different. Generally speaking, I'd say there were more shorter players, maybe a little less speed than what we've seen, but maybe a little more power with good production. There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 guys in the [40-yard dash], and not a lot of 6-4, 6-5 guys. There was a much smaller pool of those players."
Are there other quotes mentioning the 6'4, 6'5 height 4.6 40 speed or is this the quote that everyone refers to when talking about the Patriots OLB height?
I ask this because other than McGinest who they inherited and Vrabel who they signed in 2001 the only other players who match those height requirements were undrafted special teamers Pierre Woods and Vince Redd (5 Games). You could maybe include Eric Moore this year but he was strictly used at DE except for the last game I believe. Maybe Matt Chatham another undrafted ST but I believe played mostly inside.
Every other OLB that I can remember who was brought in falls short (literally) of this requirement.
Rosevelt Colvin 6'3 250 and Roman Phifer 6'2 248 both very similar to Von Miller at 6'3 247.
Chad Brown 6'2 245
A. Thomas 6'2 270
Ninkovich 6'2 255
TBC 6'2 250
Burgess 6'2 260
It seems to me that they don't require the height even if they may desire it.
Based strictly on the games I watched - no. Tuck was an energizer bunny, Jordan was the invisible man until the Senior Bowl.Any chance Cameron Jordon is the second coming of Justin Tuck of the Giants?
Just going by his size, build and ranking.
Basically, the only OLBs that Belichick had anything invested in were Thomas (who was ideal in every aspect other than height) and Cunningham (who is ideal other than being 5/8 inches shy of 6'4"). Not a whole lot to go off right now.
Are you conveniently forgetting Colvin? Miller actually reminds me of Colvin a lot - before the hip injury. He is not as polished yet, but faster, quicker, and better pass rush ability.
By the way, speaking of AD - at 270 lbs, he was never a good edge setter. Not even in 2007 when he was moved to OLB at the end of the season. So there's a lot more than just weight to setting the edge.
The key words out of the post you quoted in this one are "2-gap." That, along with "read and react," are what separate the Patriots' scheme from basically every other 3-4 scheme.
There is one other quote. Belichick mentioned it, and Caserio said something very similar. I believe the other quote also mentions being around 260 pounds.
As for the guys you mention:
Phifer was an ILB
Brown was an ILB
Thomas - 1 5/8 inches shy of 6'4", but had ideal weight at 270, a 4.56 40, very long arms, and NFL experience in a 3-4. Basically, had everything except height and a good attitude.
Ninkovich - Signed as a low-money free agent, 7/8 inches shy of 6'4"
TBC - 7th round pick
Burgess - subpackage DE, not OLB
Basically, the only OLBs that Belichick had anything invested in were Thomas (who was ideal in every aspect other than height) and Cunningham (who is ideal other than being 5/8 inches shy of 6'4"). Not a whole lot to go off right now.
From what Bunting hears/feels:
NFL Draft rumors: Post-Combine | National Football Post
Right consider there's a difference between the prototype desired and what is actually available at the draft. There are very few freaks that fit BB's requirements for a 1st round LBer. Note that Crable fit the criteria, as did the aforementioned Woods and Redd. The Pats would ideally like to have guys like that IF they spend an early draft pick. Free agents cost nothing but cash and can generally be cut if they don't work out. They also have more of a proven history as LBers in the NFL which may offset the height disparity.
The Pats only recent departure from the 6'4/6-5 requirement would be Cunningham in round 2. But he's also 260+ lbs. He showed some flashes last season but failed just short of reaching the QB numerous time. Would an extra couple of inches of reach have led to more sacks and pressures? You've got to wonder if the physical requirements aren't there for a reason.
Wouldn't draft Von Miller for this defense unless he dropped to the 2nd round but that's not gonna happen. He fits 4-3 defenses very well. Could be the next Freeney in the right system. But that's just not our system.
I do not think there is a must have height or weight limit in BB's mind on the OLB players, but there must be proof that a player who lacks ideal measurables can do the job. ie Thomas lacked the hieght, but had the speed and weight.
In my mind, Miller only works if he is protected by the scheme and that involves moving Wilfork to DE.
When scouting for BB 3-4 OLB type players you have to look for the big three plus one.
1.) Ability to set a hard edge in the the run game against NFL size OT's. Must be able to shed and tackle at the POA without giving up ground at the LOS.
2.) Must be able to rush the passer without losing gap intregity. Not many players can do this, it involves a lot of hand to hand combat as well as strength. The more violent a players hands the better.
3.) Must be able to drop into coverage and have the speed AND change of direction necessary to stay with TE's, FB's or even RB's. 3 cone drill and 10 yard split times on the 40 are a good indication of if a player can be successful at this with proper coaching on technique.
4.) In order to be a 1st round OLB pick for BB, a player must be good at all three and be able to play four downs. And remember BB does not project, if it isn't on tape, he is not going to use a first round pick on a player who might project to be able to do it.
Not many players fit this profile and if you name every 3-4 OLB hopeful int his draft, I can name something on this list that the player you name can't do or has not shown on tape that they can do.
On the other hand I can name several players that have just one or two warts that BB might be tempted to take in the first round this year. Quinn and Kerrigan.
Later in the draft, I really like Keiser of Stanford and think that in our defense he might have the most upside.
That is a great post. Can I ask what players you think there are currently in the league, let alone the draft, who fit this description? It seems this ideal is so difficult to attain in reality. Bill perhaps has to be a bit less demanding with his requirements going forward.