Moss trade to Dallas?

[BradyFTW!]

When Brady won Superbowls with no name receivers he had a very good line, people forget about that


Well they also lost a chance of a super bowl, because they had a bunch of shoemakers at WR... Troy Brown, David Givens and Deion Branch were solid recievers... Aiken, and Stanbeck are shoe makers , and eldeman and tate are unknown at best...

Yeah, I think the second part of your statement bears repeating:

When the Pats were winning SBs, the line was much better than it has been in recent years. They never got manhandled like they did in SB42. Can't blame that on the WRs.

 

[BradyFTW!]

So invisible that he's the only Patriot to catch a Super Bowl TD pass since those Branch years...

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yeah, I think the second part of your statement bears repeating:

When the Pats were winning SBs, the line was much better than it has been in recent years. They never got manhandled like they did in SB42. Can't blame that on the WRs.

Typically, if WRs aren't getting open that would cause the QB to hold the ball longer and increase the risk of a hurried throw and/or sack.

-The 2007 Giants had 52 regular season sacks. They had arguably the fiercest pass rush of any team that decade.
-Neal goes down and replacement not up to the task
-Faulk bangs up his knee, arguably the team best RB in blitz pickup
-Brady plays with a bad foot w/ limits his mobility
-No Dan Graham catches up to them

Can't defend the rest of the line as they played poorly in the one on one match ups, but they were spectacular up to the 19th game.

This has been covered approx 10,234 times. It was the prefect storm. Wasn't the Pats day. The D makes a stop in the 2min we aren't having this conversation, we are saying, "The protection was just enough".

 

[upstater1]

Yeah, I think the second part of your statement bears repeating:

When the Pats were winning SBs, the line was much better than it has been in recent years. They never got manhandled like they did in SB42. Can't blame that on the WRs.

Did the offense have many empty backfield sets with wide splits by the OL back then?

 

[Snake Eyes]

I wonder what you'll be saying when his teammates vote him captain for the third year in a row. It's fixed! Recount!

Did you bother to read the comments Moss made? What kind of effect does that have on the team? Yeah, he's a captain, which means people look at him as an example of what they should be, and he basically says 'management is screwing us players' when he's been taking home huge paychecks. No, that kind of nonsense harms a team, Brady wouldn't have done that, neither would another true Patriot like Troy Brown.

 

[BigMike]

Typically, if WRs aren't getting open that would cause the QB to hold the ball longer and increase the risk of a hurried throw and/or sack.

-The 2007 Giants had 52 regular season sacks. They had arguably the fiercest pass rush of any team that decade.
-Neal goes down and replacement not up to the task
-Faulk bangs up his knee, arguably the team best RB in blitz pickup
-Brady plays with a bad foot w/ limits his mobility
-No Dan Graham catches up to them

Can't defend the rest of the line as they played poorly in the one on one match ups, but they were spectacular up to the 19th game.

This has been covered approx 10,234 times. It was the prefect storm. Wasn't the Pats day. The D makes a stop in the 2min we aren't having this conversation, we are saying, "The protection was just enough".

Well said......

 

[Snake Eyes]

Typically, if WRs aren't getting open that would cause the QB to hold the ball longer and increase the risk of a hurried throw and/or sack.

-The 2007 Giants had 52 regular season sacks. They had arguably the fiercest pass rush of any team that decade.
-Neal goes down and replacement not up to the task
-Faulk bangs up his knee, arguably the team best RB in blitz pickup
-Brady plays with a bad foot w/ limits his mobility
-No Dan Graham catches up to them

Can't defend the rest of the line as they played poorly in the one on one match ups, but they were spectacular up to the 19th game.

This has been covered approx 10,234 times. It was the prefect storm. Wasn't the Pats day. The D makes a stop in the 2min we aren't having this conversation, we are saying, "The protection was just enough".

Ok, so were Moss/Welker and Co. not good enough? It takes time to get open and a weak line doesn't afford you that time. The line is the first piece to contact the other side, weaknesses there cause a bigger ripple than a weakness in the receivers.

 

[emoney_33]

Did you bother to read the comments Moss made? What kind of effect does that have on the team? Yeah, he's a captain, which means people look at him as an example of what they should be, and he basically says 'management is screwing us players' when he's been taking home huge paychecks. No, that kind of nonsense harms a team, Brady wouldn't have done that, neither would another true Patriot like Troy Brown.

Again, I will be interested to see what you say if he is yet again voted as captain.

 

[RobertWeathers]

When the Pats were winning SBs, the line was much better than it has been in recent years. They never got manhandled like they did in SB42. Can't blame that on the WRs.

My rebuttal was to the above-mentioned statement.

Ok, so were Moss/Welker and Co. not good enough? It takes time to get open and a weak line doesn't afford you that time. The line is the first piece to contact the other side, weaknesses there cause a bigger ripple than a weakness in the receivers.

My assertions (take #2):

-Moss and Welker were certainly good enough to win a SB in 2007
-During the 2007 SB, the Patriots went into the game with a QB who's mobility was impeded due to injury. We can make the assumption that he couldn't move around as well as he had during the season. He also looked poorly during the SD game but I digress.
-I believe Neal's injury hurt the line's ability to run the football, which can aid the passing game by keeping the defense honest.
-Neal's injury also brought Hochstein into the game who is not as good of a linemen as Neal.
-Faulk played a good game, but when asked to pick up guys like Uymenoura, Mitchell, Alford, Tuck and Strahan on rushes, a 3rd down back isn't going to cut it. - especially attempting to plant with a bag leg.
-Watson isn't 1/2 of the pass blocker Graham was on his bad day. Kyle Brady was done.
-As a unit, the 2007 Giants front 4-5 players are the best pass-rushing D line in the last 10+ years and because of their ability, with Neal out and Faulk hurting, the Giants were able to put 6 sometimes 7 players in the secondary for coverage and minimize Moss, Stallworth, Gaffney from making big plays as the 11 dink and dunk passes to Welker and 7 to Faulk indicate.
-To begin with, their run D was also very good. Coupled w/ Faulk and Neal hurt, the Pats ability to run the ball was impeded.

What do you disagree with?

 

[Snake Eyes]

My rebuttal was to the above-mentioned statement.



My assertions (take #2):

-Moss and Welker were certainly good enough to win a SB in 2007
-During the 2007 SB, the Patriots went into the game with a QB who's mobility was impeded due to injury. We can make the assumption that he couldn't move around as well as he had during the season. He also looked poorly during the SD game but I digress.
-I believe Neal's injury hurt the line's ability to run the football, which can aid the passing game by keeping the defense honest.
-Neal's injury also brought Hochstein into the game who is not as good of a linemen as Neal.
-Faulk played a good game, but when asked to pick up guys like Uymenoura, Mitchell, Alford, Tuck and Strahan on rushes, a 3rd down back isn't going to cut it. - especially attempting to plant with a bag leg.
-Watson isn't 1/2 of the pass blocker Graham was on his bad day. Kyle Brady was done.
-As a unit, the 2007 Giants front 4-5 players are the best pass-rushing D line in the last 10+ years and because of their ability, with Neal out and Faulk hurting, the Giants were able to put 6 sometimes 7 players in the secondary for coverage and minimize Moss, Stallworth, Gaffney from making big plays as the 11 dink and dunk passes to Welker and 7 to Faulk indicate.
-To begin with, their run D was also very good. Coupled w/ Faulk and Neal hurt, the Pats ability to run the ball was impeded.

What do you disagree with?

I don't disagree with anything you've written, however this whole discussion is in the context of what is the best thing to do regarding Moss. I don't think the team will be capable of being a Superbowl contender next season, I know many will want to burn me as a heretic for that but so be it, I think 2011 is when we'll be in really good shape provided the team does the right things. Moss is at the end of his career, I'd rather send him packing and get draft picks that can be used for guys at the beginning of theirs'.

If we picked up Andre Roberts I think he would be more effective on the field next season than Moss would. Dallas is absolutely desperate to try to win NOW, despite what it does to them in the long term, they just might shell out for Moss to try to make that happen, if they gave up a 2nd and a 5th for Moss I'd take that deal.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don't think the team will be capable of being a Superbowl contender next season, I know many will want to burn me as a heretic for that but so be it, I think 2011 is when we'll be in really good shape provided the team does the right things. .

Each has their opinion. I think you may be jumping the gun a bit. You have FA period b/t/w now and the draft. The draft itself. TC, cutdowns, trades. Lots of time to teambuild. Need to see it play out. Not like the team was 2-14 least year. New Orleans was not thought of very highly at this time last year either.

Moss is at the end of his career, I'd rather send him packing and get draft picks that can be used for guys at the beginning of theirs'. .

I think Moss staying here is 50/50. If hes sent, a similar #1 or 2 #2s for TB to throw to is the only way any dealing of Moss is acceptable and/or implementing a running game of the ages.

If we picked up Andre Roberts I think he would be more effective on the field next season than Moss would. .

The odds say that a receiver coming off a 80/1300 yard/13 TD season will do better than a rookie WR. Reports on Johnson look good (reminds me of Deion out of Louisville in 02) but saying he'll do better than Moss is a stretch IMO.

Dallas is absolutely desperate to try to win NOW, despite what it does to them in the long term, they just might shell out for Moss to try to make that happen, if they gave up a 2nd and a 5th for Moss I'd take that deal.

Makes no sense to dismantle this offense with a HoF QB in his prime w/o targets than can equal Moss' production.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Makes no sense to dismantle this offense with a HoF QB in his prime w/o targets than can equal Moss' production.

I guess that's what remains to be seen, I don't have much faith in Moss's production at this point and I certainly don't need faith to know that running his mouth like he did harms a team. This Randy Moss is not the Moss of 2007, he's older and has more injuries accumulating in his body and has not shown that trademark ability this past season to just go up and outgrab everyone for the ball.

I think it makes even less sense to have a HoF QB and not adequately protect him so he can throw the ball. Protect Brady and we'll be fine, with or without Moss, let Brady get the hell beaten out of him again and he'll soon retire after a few seasons of throwing garbage interceptions like the one to Channing Crowder the ended the Dolphins game along with the other awful picks he threw this season. Brady's mind isn't going to work very well when they're shooting him up with all sorts of painkillers from all his injuries because he's getting the hell beaten out of him.

 

[emoney_33]

I guess that's what remains to be seen, I don't have much faith in Moss's production at this point and I certainly don't need faith to know that running his mouth like he did harms a team. This Randy Moss is not the Moss of 2007, he's older and has more injuries accumulating in his body and has not shown that trademark ability this past season to just go up and outgrab everyone for the ball.

Sep... a.... rated.... SHOULDER. Like to see you go up and outgrab a ball from anyone with a separated shoulder. He still put up a top WR year even with all the factors considering. Unless an unforeseen injury occurs, there is a VERY high probability that he has another great year in 2010.

I think it makes even less sense to have a HoF QB and not adequately protect him so he can throw the ball. Protect Brady and we'll be fine, with or without Moss, let Brady get the hell beaten out of him again and he'll soon retire after a few seasons of throwing garbage interceptions like the one to Channing Crowder the ended the Dolphins game along with the other awful picks he threw this season.

Every single year he has thown some awful picks, and has especially always struggled in Miami. In the end he only threw 13 picks which is right along with his usual 12-14 picks of every other year except 2007.

Although I do agree protection is a priority, there's not a lot you can do with multiple injuries to the OL and constantly having to shuffle and use injured guys.

Brady's mind isn't going to work very well when they're shooting him up with all sorts of painkillers from all his injuries because he's getting the hell beaten out of him.

I think Brady has a tougher mind than you give him credit for But absolutely we don't want him getting killed. Moss doesn't cause him to get killed btw.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Moss doesn't cause him to get killed btw.

No, but the key here is that Moss represents a resource, what is the best way to use that resource? We can keep it in Moss, trade for another player, or use picks to draft new players.

If we were to think about it in terms of throwing a rock into a pond and observing the ripples, in what situation do we get the most ripples for the rock?

 

[emoney_33]

No, but the key here is that Moss represents a resource, what is the best way to use that resource? We can keep it in Moss, trade for another player, or use picks to draft new players.

If we were to think about it in terms of throwing a rock into a pond and observing the ripples, in what situation do we get the most ripples for the rock?

Keeping Moss.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I guess that's what remains to be seen, I don't have much faith in Moss's production ..

I don't know what to tell you, Snake. If he played 11 games, had 50 catches for 800 yds and 5 TDs and looked old in the process, I'd tend to agree with you. But he didn't. He may have lost a little bit of a step, but he was still top 10 in yards, YPC for those who finished w/ over 1k yds and #1 in TDs. He also played in 16 games and averaged 62 snaps a game to boot. Thats being pretty reliable and durable in my book.

at this point and I certainly don't need faith to know that running his mouth like he did harms a team. ..

What did he do to harm the team?

This Randy Moss is not the Moss of 2007, he's older and has more injuries accumulating in his body and has not shown that trademark ability this past season to just go up and outgrab everyone for the ball..

Would you take 83 catches for 1262 yds and 13 TDs again?

I think it makes even less sense to have a HoF QB and not adequately protect him so he can throw the ball. Protect Brady and we'll be fine, with or without Moss, let Brady get the hell beaten out of him again and he'll soon retire after a few seasons of throwing garbage interceptions like the one to Channing Crowder the ended the Dolphins game along with the other awful picks he threw this season. Brady's mind isn't going to work very well when they're shooting him up with all sorts of painkillers from all his injuries because he's getting the hell beaten out of him.

Protecting the QB is a seperate issue. It's not like Moss was not reading the coverage, not cutting off routes and leaving TB w/o a hot read all the time. C'mon.

I see where you are going with your arguement. I've bashed Moss before b/c I thought he underperformed for a stretch last year. You can also make the case that he wasn't focused when Cassell took over the reigns in the early part of 2008. With any "great" player- and Randy is one of those, I expect them to produce when the team NEEDS them. Randy played hurt last year. Maybe it took BB sending him home to suck it up and refocus. Who knows. What can't can't be disputed is the production he brings to the table and his willingness to play battered.

If BB ships him out, it'll be for value in return- not for Randy ripping the locker room apart and sub-standard production.

 

[Bartmac36]

Moss
2nd round pick

for

Ware
Miles Austin

There you go...

 

[emoney_33]

Moss
2nd round pick

for

Ware
Miles Austin

There you go...

Nice world you live in...

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Moss
2nd round pick

for

Ware
Miles Austin

There you go...

Moss and a 2nd rounder for Ware alone is not a fair trade for Dallas,let alone throwing in Austin....

 

[Bartmac36]

Moss and a 2nd rounder for Ware alone is not a fair trade for Dallas,let alone throwing in Austin....

so make it a 1st rounder...im not that picky...i just want a decent receiver and a solid pass rusher...