Moss trade to Dallas?

[Snake Eyes]

I don't know what to tell you, Snake. If he played 11 games, had 50 catches for 800 yds and 5 TDs and looked old in the process, I'd tend to agree with you. But he didn't. He may have lost a little bit of a step, but he was still top 10 in yards, YPC for those who finished w/ over 1k yds and #1 in TDs. He also played in 16 games and averaged 62 snaps a game to boot. Thats being pretty reliable and durable in my book.



What did he do to harm the team?



Would you take 83 catches for 1262 yds and 13 TDs again?



Protecting the QB is a seperate issue. It's not like Moss was not reading the coverage, not cutting off routes and leaving TB w/o a hot read all the time. C'mon.

I see where you are going with your arguement. I've bashed Moss before b/c I thought he underperformed for a stretch last year. You can also make the case that he wasn't focused when Cassell took over the reigns in the early part of 2008. With any "great" player- and Randy is one of those, I expect them to produce when the team NEEDS them. Randy played hurt last year. Maybe it took BB sending him home to suck it up and refocus. Who knows. What can't can't be disputed is the production he brings to the table and his willingness to play battered.

If BB ships him out, it'll be for value in return- not for Randy ripping the locker room apart and sub-standard production.

Protecting the QB really isn't a separate issue if I can trade Moss for picks and then pick up some Linemen who will be with us for years as opposed to 1 season, which is all we know we have Moss for.

Moss trailed off last season, and you can blame injuries but that just means you have a body with more accumulated injuries on it, how Moss does next year won't matter if he's not playing with us 3 years from now but if we got a Jacoby Ford he very likely would be playing for us 3 years from now.

You can talk about Moss's past production, but it's just past, we certainly don't know he'll produce like that again, if anything it's more likely that his production will go down.

I guess I can sum things up like this: in order to have the highest long term production from a factory one is going to need to take machines offline for repair and parts replacement every now and then, if one gets greedy and doesn't want to take them offline to try to maximize the short term gain the eventual result will be seriously harming the machine and overall, long-term production. A football team is no different.

We can try to squeeze a Superbowl victory next season, which is even less likely considering BB doesn't feel the need for coordinators, or we can look to rebuild for a few Superbowl runs in the next few years. I think the later gives us the best odds of success, you might disagree with me but that is my reasoning.

 

[emoney_33]

Moss trailed off last season, and you can blame injuries but that just means you have a body with more accumulated injuries on it, how Moss does next year won't matter if he's not playing with us 3 years from now but if we got a Jacoby Ford he very likely would be playing for us 3 years from now.

There are a lot of players that won't be playing with us 3 years from now. Let's trade the whole team in favor of rookies!

You can talk about Moss's past production, but it's just past, we certainly don't know he'll produce like that again, if anything it's more likely that his production will go down.

You can say every single receiver in the NFL's production is "just the past". There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that a dropoff is imminent, except in your mind that is struggling to churn out all possible excuses to trade him.

I guess I can sum things up like this: in order to have the highest long term production from a factory one is going to need to take machines offline for repair and parts replacement every now and then, if one gets greedy and doesn't want to take them offline to try to maximize the short term gain the eventual result will be seriously harming the machine and overall, long-term production. A football team is no different.

This makes little sense, you want to take the WR "part" offline? So let's give up on 2010 before it starts?

We can try to squeeze a Superbowl victory next season, which is even less likely considering BB doesn't feel the need for coordinators, or we can look to rebuild for a few Superbowl runs in the next few years. I think the later gives us the best odds of success, you might disagree with me but that is my reasoning.

It's just as stupid to give on the present as it is to forget about the future. No one is ever "likely" to win the SB. To give up on the next season in Februrary is just stupid, plain and simple. Just look at all the 1 year turnarounds to win a SB. Hell we were 5-11 in 2000.

You have some very weird idea of what a team needs to look like in February to be able to compete for a SB. The patriots have been in good position to compete for a SB every year this decade except for 2000 and 2002. There is nothing to suggest that we will all of a sudden have 0 chance at winning the SB and tank in 2010.

 

[Snake Eyes]

There are a lot of players that won't be playing with us 3 years from now. Let's trade the whole team in favor of rookies!

Is the whole team as old in their positions as Moss is with increasing injuries? What is the potential upside of those trades?

You can say every single receiver in the NFL's production is "just the past". There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that a dropoff is imminent, except in your mind that is struggling to churn out all possible excuses to trade him.

He's getting old and accumulating more injuries, I'd rather take what we have allocated for Moss and get a few solid receivers and a lineman to protect Brady.

This makes little sense, you want to take the WR "part" offline? So let's give up on 2010 before it starts?

Give up? Absolutely not, reallocate resources to increase the team's overall chances for success, absolutely.

You have some very weird idea of what a team needs to look like in February to be able to compete for a SB. The patriots have been in good position to compete for a SB every year this decade except for 2000 and 2002. There is nothing to suggest that we will all of a sudden have 0 chance at winning the SB and tank in 2010.

Were we in a good position to compete this year? No, the team looked good on the outside but was very hollow, a few cracks in the right places and they looked downright weak against unspectacular teams, they were not a Championship caliber team, even BB knew this, that's why he traded away Seymour for a FUTURE pick.

 

[emoney_33]

He's getting old and accumulating more injuries, I'd rather take what we have allocated for Moss and get a few solid receivers and a lineman to protect Brady.

Accumulating more injuries? He had a separated shoulder and had to play through it due to the lack of WR depth on the team. And just in case you've forgotten, even WITH the injury he was 5th in yards and 1st in TD. It's more than likely he will put up BETTER numbers next year. He does not have a chronic age-related condition.

Give up? Absolutely not, reallocate resources to increase the team's overall chances for success, absolutely.

You are arguing to trade Moss for the future because we are unlikely to win it all in 2010. That is the very definition of giving up. Unless you can replace, or come close to replacing, Moss' likely production in 2010 it would be stupid to trade him. Brady isn't going to be in his prime in 3 years, he's in his prime NOW.

Were we in a good position to compete this year? No, the team looked good on the outside but was very hollow, a few cracks in the right places and they looked downright weak against unspectacular teams, they were not a Championship caliber team, even BB knew this, that's why he traded away Seymour for a FUTURE pick.

This team was in good position to compete this year, absolutely. Welker's injury seriously derailed that, but we were in good position to go deep in the playoffs. Not a single team in the playoffs was significantly and obviously better than us. The only argument would be the Saints, but it wouldn't be as good an argument as the 2001 Rams.

Welker's injury, combined with Moss' injury, exposed the fatal flaw of the 2009 Patriots (WR Depth).

 

[Snake Eyes]

Accumulating more injuries? He had a separated shoulder and had to play through it due to the lack of WR depth on the team. And just in case you've forgotten, even WITH the injury he was 5th in yards and 1st in TD. It's more than likely he will put up BETTER numbers next year. He does not have a chronic age-related condition.



You are arguing to trade Moss for the future because we are unlikely to win it all in 2010. That is the very definition of giving up. Unless you can replace, or come close to replacing, Moss' likely production in 2010 it would be stupid to trade him. Brady isn't going to be in his prime in 3 years, he's in his prime NOW.



This team was in good position to compete this year, absolutely. Welker's injury seriously derailed that, but we were in good position to go deep in the playoffs. Not a single team in the playoffs was significantly and obviously better than us. The only argument would be the Saints, but it wouldn't be as good an argument as the 2001 Rams.

Welker's injury, combined with Moss' injury, exposed the fatal flaw of the 2009 Patriots (WR Depth).

Brady isn't in his prime now, he WAS in 2007, I don't know if we'll ever see that Brady again but I know that Brady had moments of greatness this past season that came when he had protection, if you fail to protect him, and BB HAS failed to get players to a line to adequately protect him, you won't see TFB ever again, he'll get beaten in the next few seasons and he'll whimper away into retirement.

Oh, it was WR depth that killed this team, I seem to remember all those defensive meltdowns throughout the season, that wasn't the flaw?

What about the Ravens running all over the Patriots D? Ray Lewis even said the Pats Offense was predictable, which allowed them to walk all over them.

You want to believe it's all about the WRs, go ahead, I'm done with this thread, let's look it up again after the 2010 season is over and see who was right.

 

[DaBruinz]

Rumors are that Marion Barber might be on the block since Felix Jones has taken the lead role and Tashard Choice is emerging. I would trade Moss for Barber in a heartbeat. Bring back the Golden Golpher backfield.

Actually, Choice is rumored to be going to San Diego as soon as trading can commence in exchange for Cromartie. It's supposedly a done deal and they are just waiting for March 5th.

 

[emoney_33]

Brady isn't in his prime now, he WAS in 2007, I don't know if we'll ever see that Brady again but I know that Brady had moments of greatness this past season that came when he had protection, if you fail to protect him, and BB HAS failed to get players to a line to adequately protect him, you won't see TFB ever again, he'll get beaten in the next few seasons and he'll whimper away into retirement.

You do realize defense-adjusted he was the best QB in the NFL this year right? Sure he wasn't completely himself and had his moments and wasn't at 2007 peak levels, but he is still the best in the business the year he returned from ACL. Next year only figures to get better. The line suffered multiple injuries this year, there's not much you can do to help in that situation.

Oh, it was WR depth that killed this team, I seem to remember all those defensive meltdowns throughout the season, that wasn't the flaw?

The defense was an issue all season with the sporadic play yes, but they were not the reason we lost to the Ravens. The single biggest reason we lost in the playoffs was Welker's injury. The offense gave the game to the Ravens, hence the FATAL flaw.

What about the Ravens running all over the Patriots D? Ray Lewis even said the Pats Offense was predictable, which allowed them to walk all over them.

I rarely care what an opponent has to say, if Welker was there the whole game dynamic changes. The D wasn't "run all over" and I've broken this down extensively already. They played pretty decent considering the **** situation they were given. The offense gave the Ravens the ball inside the 25 4 times (2 TD and 2 FG). Even a great defense is going to have a hard time of that. Granted they completely screwed up the 1st play (83 yard TD) but the offense was the reason for the loss. The defense played well enough to win, the offense did everything to lose, because they had NO ONE to throw to except a rookie and an injured Moss.

(btw, I think they allowed something like 3.6 YPC after that 83 yard TD)

You want to believe it's all about the WRs, go ahead, I'm done with this thread, let's look it up again after the 2010 season is over and see who was right.

Who ever said "it's all about the WRs"? You are proposing to trade Moss for the future, that is what this is all about. The OL is not in as bad shape as you believe it is anyway, but that's not what this entire discussion was about. As long as we replace Neal, we still have a very solid OL.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Brady isn't in his prime now, he WAS in 2007, I don't know if we'll ever see that Brady again but I know that Brady had moments of greatness this past season that came when he had protection, if you fail to protect him, and BB HAS failed to get players to a line to adequately protect him, you won't see TFB ever again, he'll get beaten in the next few seasons and he'll whimper away into retirement.

Oh, it was WR depth that killed this team, I seem to remember all those defensive meltdowns throughout the season, that wasn't the flaw?

What about the Ravens running all over the Patriots D? Ray Lewis even said the Pats Offense was predictable, which allowed them to walk all over them.

You want to believe it's all about the WRs, go ahead, I'm done with this thread, let's look it up again after the 2010 season is over and see who was right.

32 for a QB is realy not that old if he wants he can play 5 more years at a hign level. he did pass for the 2th most yerds of he's Career. in 2009.


only 3 man in the all most 100 year history of the NFL have ever passed for 40 TD's so i don't see why anyone would think that he would ever get any were near 50 TD's. 25 to 30 TD's and and 3800 to 4000 yerd's passing. for the next 3 to 5 years is what you will see from brady, and if the pats put together. a real defense. they can win at lest one more SB befor he retires.

 

[goheels22002]

Did you bother to read the comments Moss made? What kind of effect does that have on the team? Yeah, he's a captain, which means people look at him as an example of what they should be, and he basically says 'management is screwing us players' when he's been taking home huge paychecks. No, that kind of nonsense harms a team, Brady wouldn't have done that, neither would another true Patriot like Troy Brown.

The quote wasn't that big of deal - no different than what others before him have said when the Pats drag their feet. It takes two to tango here and the Pioli-less regime may be even less sensitive to the fact that these are young guys (even Randy Moss) who do not know what their future holds in a Darwinian job. Bob Kraft said it right when he said he's positioning himself for negotiating.

Look at Brian Westbrook who's probably out of football due to his head injuries. Moss is probably concerned that his shoulder injury makes him expendable. It's a brutal business with huge downsides for guys who have few other jobs to turn to after dedicating themselves to football. You have to look at these comments and contracts through the lens of very young men at the ends of their careers.

I think BB needs a very skilled and diplomatic HR director of player personnel to handle strategy and player/agent communications.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think BB needs a very skilled and diplomatic HR director of player personnel to handle strategy and player/agent communications.

Are you saying that the Patriots are not user-friendly in dealing with players both on the active roster and those that they are trying too woo here?

 

[eagle eye]

Hilarious thread. Full of talk about trading a WR who played injured last season and still ended up tied for most touchdowns and 5th on yardage even though he was only 2nd on yardage on his own team.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Hilarious thread. Full of talk about trading a WR who played injured last season and still ended up tied for most touchdowns and 5th on yardage even though he was only 2nd on yardage on his own team.

Exactly! Some people have been listening to too much Felger/Borges/Callahan and the rest of the racist jackals in the press who want to get rid of Moss. He is arguably the best WR in the history of the game, a team captain, a serious student of the game, the best receiver that the Patriots every had or will have, and good presence in the locker room; why would you dump a guy like that for a bucket of balls? Because Felger says so?

Sort of reminds me the fans who wanted to dump Manny and then they were scratching their heads about why the Red Sox had no offense last year or why pitchers could pitch around Papi. The difference is that Moss is a boy scout compared to Manny.

I am sick of the Boston media; we have the perfect WR and teammate but it is not good enough. However Wes Welker, well, let's put him in the owners box and worship him.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Exactly! Some people have been listening to too much Felger/Borges/Callahan and the rest of the racist jackals in the press who want to get rid of Moss.

Ok, what you're really saying is that people aren't allowed to criticize a black player because you'll just call them a racist, have you considered a career with MSNBC?

What kind of "ist" were the people who wanted to keep Cassel and trade Brady?

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Even Jerry Rice was moved on from the 49ers. He got old. Do you want an aging Randy Moss whose skills fall off the table and is just an expensive albatross OR do you try to trade high on a player who plays a position where the wall can be hit at any time?

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Ok, what you're really saying is that people aren't allowed to criticize a black player because you'll just call them a racist, have you considered a career with MSNBC?

What kind of "ist" were the people who wanted to keep Cassel and trade Brady?

Ack. MSNBC ick. Never.

The reason I call Felger/Callahan racist is that I cannot understand their hatred of Moss and adoration of Welker. It cannot be because of a different skill level and I cannot believe that Welker is a harder worker or more respected in the locker room (Welker is not a captain). I am not the first person to call Callahan a racist either.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Ack. MSNBC ick. Never.

The reason I call Felger/Callahan racist is that I cannot understand their hatred of Moss and adoration of Welker. It cannot be because of a different skill level and I cannot believe that Welker is a harder worker or more respected in the locker room (Welker is not a captain). I am not the first person to call Callahan a racist either.

Just because you're not the first person to do it doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do, if you noticed a general tendency to adore white players and talk smack about black players you might have something but right now we're talking about a single comparison, it's a SERIOUS reach here.

- As for Moss's bad rap, he has a history of bad behavior and Welker is basically a boy scout.

- Moss talked about "stacking his bread" after the playoff loss to the Ravens, not exactly the way to endear yourself to the fans.

- Moss also talked untrue smack about the Patriots organization, claiming they don't pay when Moss himself has gotten some of the biggest checks cut to a WR the past 2 years.

- Moss also went on to say how he'll probably be looking for another team next year, how would you like it if an employee of yours said they'd be looking for another company after the fiscal year is over? Would Brady or Welker do that? No, they'd probably say "I'll worry about contracts at that time, right now I'm just glad to be on the Patriots and I'm going to do everything I can to improve and make a run for the Superbowl next season".

Calling people a racist without anything to back it up is garbage, please do some thinking before you begin attacking people.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Just because you're not the first person to do it doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do, if you noticed a general tendency to adore white players and talk smack about black players you might have something but right now we're talking about a single comparison, it's a SERIOUS reach here.

- As for Moss's bad rap, he has a history of bad behavior and Welker is basically a boy scout.

- Moss talked about "stacking his bread" after the playoff loss to the Ravens, not exactly the way to endear yourself to the fans.

- Moss also talked untrue smack about the Patriots organization, claiming they don't pay when Moss himself has gotten some of the biggest checks cut to a WR the past 2 years.

- Moss also went on to say how he'll probably be looking for another team next year, how would you like it if an employee of yours said they'd be looking for another company after the fiscal year is over? Would Brady or Welker do that? No, they'd probably say "I'll worry about contracts at that time, right now I'm just glad to be on the Patriots and I'm going to do everything I can to improve and make a run for the Superbowl next season".

Calling people a racist without anything to back it up is garbage, please do some thinking before you begin attacking people.

Maybe you are right. I just cannot understand how Callahan and Felger can be so vicious toward Moss. It seems way out of proportion to his sins. Maybe I am just misreading their bile as racism.

If Moss is unhappy in NE, I cannot help but think that the media is to blame.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Maybe you are right. I just cannot understand how Callahan and Felger can be so vicious toward Moss. It seems way out of proportion to his sins. Maybe I am just misreading their bile as racism.

If Moss is unhappy in NE, I cannot help but think that the media is to blame.

Felger hates Moss b/c he thinks he's soft. Which would explain his love for Welker by default, who is tough as nails and is often characterized as a warrior.

Felger thinks Moss takes too many plays off, doesn't fight through coverage, doesn't like going over the middle, and uses the excuse that "oh there was safety help." He feels like he just shuts it down if he doesn't think he's going to get the ball. I really don't think it has anything to do with racism, just Moss being a finesse player and Welker being very physical. Felger has said time and time again he'd much rather have a guy like Marshall who lacks the deep speed of Randy but fights through coverage, goes over the middle, and pretty much "goes hard" on every play.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Felger hates Moss b/c he thinks he's soft. Which would explain his love for Welker by default, who is tough as nails and is often characterized as a warrior.

Felger thinks Moss takes too many plays off, doesn't fight through coverage, doesn't like going over the middle, and uses the excuse that "oh there was safety help." He feels like he just shuts it down if he doesn't think he's going to get the ball. I really don't think it has anything to do with racism, just Moss being a finesse player and Welker being very physical. Felger has said time and time again he'd much rather have a guy like Marshall who lacks the deep speed of Randy but fights through coverage, goes over the middle, and pretty much "goes hard" on every play.

Ah Felger is a different story. On reflection I don't think he is a racist, just an idiot and mean spirited. It is fine if you are an idiot, but at least he should be a nice idiot. For instance Gerry Glanvie was an idiot, but he was a nice idiot and fun to listen to. Felger is at the same intelligence level but mean and rude.

One of the greatest moments in sports talk history happened when Terry Francona called Felger out on the radio and exposed his douchbaggery. Felger had to admit that he was ranting about something he knew nothing about (playing Martinez every game). Wish Belichick would do that to Felger, but that is not BB's style--he just lets Felger rant on and on.

Felger is just a fool, but I think that Callahan is beyond that. Callahan seems to have an inner rage that he vents at various people such has Belichick and Moss.

 

[sbpatfan]

Hilarious thread, never thought I'd see people argue about such pointless things.