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Moss getting more MVP discussion - could he beat out Brady?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Drewwho, Nov 27, 2007.

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  1. Drewwho

    Drewwho Rookie

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    From Peter King:

    MVP Watch
    1. Tom Brady, QB, New England. There's a growing thought in 2007 MVP circles that goes something like this: The MVP has to be Randy Moss, because this intergalactic offense was just very good before Moss arrived, and it's Moss who has made all the difference in this scoring factory. It's a good argument that has some validity, and I'm giving Moss a lion's share of the credit for the Patriots being so great.

    But there are two reasons why Brady's a better MVP pick than Moss. One: Moss is not receiving passes in a vacuum. Two new teammates, Wes Welker and Donte' Stallworth, have caught 101 balls for 1,238 yards and 10 touchdowns. You think they're not valuable in allowing Moss to see less blanket coverage than he'd be seeing if Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell were the second and third Pat receivers? Two: Brady is on pace to set NFL records for accuracy, touchdown passes, TD-to-interception ratio and passer rating. He's in the midst of having the best year a quarterback has ever had. How does the best season at -- by far the most important position in the game -- not win a quarterback the MVP?
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  2. SVN

    SVN Rookie

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    anyone who saw the eagles game and still says moss is the mvp not brady is out of his mind IMO- no offense to anyone.
  3. DefenseRules

    DefenseRules Rookie

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    AMEN SVN. There is no doubt in my mind who the MVP is.
  4. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    exactly! Brady can win w/o Moss, but it doesn't work the other way.
  5. ChoWZa

    ChoWZa Rookie

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    Theres a lot of sentiment here.. Brady is having a great season, the best ever for a QB maybe. Moss is also close to having the best season a WR can have... what more could you ask of Moss? To say that Moss doesn't deserve consideration is ignorant. To me.. you can't play any better than Moss has.. and you can't play any better than Brady has... I'd be content with a co-mvp.
  6. Xzibit23

    Xzibit23 Rookie

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    Really?? I dont know, they ran play after play with Moss on one side of the field and 3 WRS on the other...the plan being Moss would take the coverage with him and open up opportunities for the other 3. Is that still not adding immense value?? Dont get wrong, Brady is the MVP imo, but the Eagles game didnt do aything to detract Moss' candidacy.
  7. makewayhomer

    makewayhomer Rookie

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    Brady is clearly the MVP, but this guy has a point.

    Wes Welker got single coverage all day b/c the defense focused so much on Moss
  8. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Isn't MVP the most valuable player to the team? the player that makes the most difference to a team taht is doing well?

    To me it is clear that Moss is NOT the league MVP. Replace Moss by any of a dozen receivers in the league and we would still liely be undefeated. In fact, most of us think that we would be undefeated without Moss, with no replacement.

    If we had Brees or Big Ben or any of the 18 top QB's, what would our record be? We likely would have fewer win. I still think we'd be easy division winners, and easily one of the top team in the conference. That argues that Brady is NOT the MVP.

    The player who really is the MVP this year is Brett Favre. He has taken the team on his back and carried it to 10-1. There is doubt as to whether pack is a playoff team without him.

    So, by bottom line is that Brady and Moss may be having having the best year ever for a QB and for a WR, but neither is MVP.
  9. SVN

    SVN Rookie

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    i agree he has helped brady be what he is this yr but so so have other players on the team although to a lesser extent. Its still upto brady to handle the philly pressure, understand the coverage and go to welker and gaffeny. Any other QB wouldve chucked the ball to moss 10 times and lost. Ultimately who can we live without on this team brady or moss ? I not against moss and he has opened up this offense but being most valueable to the team keyword being "most" i think its brady unanimously.
  10. SVN

    SVN Rookie

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    i agree but then brady is the MVP all those yrs manning and mcnair and LT won it. So we penalized brady then for not having numbers and now penalize him for having a good receiving core around him. Cant have it both ways.
  11. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You are correct. Brady deserves it now as much as they did then.

  12. NYPatsFan

    NYPatsFan Rookie

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    Welker would have been open anyway. Unless you stick a #1 CB on him, he's going to use his speed and quickness to get open.

    Brady is the MVP. Case closed.
  13. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    This whole argument is absolutely crazy. Both of them are the best at the positions they play. The question is, "Which position is the most important to a team's success?" With Moss, the Raiders absolutely sucked. If the Raiders had Brady, I'd be willing to say they are a competitive team (maybe a wildcard), and the fact that Brady can do what he did last year shows how valuable he is. Don't get me wrong, Moss should be considered, but IMO, it's Brady, hands down. I would even say that Favre would get my vote over Moss.
  14. nokturnal

    nokturnal Rookie

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    this is the single most delusional opinion i have ever read.
  15. Xzibit23

    Xzibit23 Rookie

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    Oh..I agree. I wasn't advocating Moss over Brady for MVP, I was just disputing the argument that Sunday's game put a dent into Moss' MVP candidacy. IMO all it did was prove what many here already know, Moss can kill you with his own production, or by opening up the field for others when defenses focus on him.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  16. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    i don't think they'd ever give it to Moss this year because the media feel, not without justification, that he mailed it in for the last two years. they'd see this as rewarding bad behavior.

    Let's get it for TB this year and then come back and blow the league away again next year and get it for Randy at that time.
  17. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    mg has a tendancy to take the team concept to the extreme.

    There have been a couple of games GB won this year in spite of Favre, and a couple of others where he made a play when he had to on an otherwise uninspiring day (with a little help from Donald Driver for one...). He's having a team MVP season compared to his suckitude of the last few seasons, mostly due to his FINALLY adhering to a script, but he wouldn't be the MVP on this team... Whereas Brady would still be the MVP of the 2007 GB team if the rolls were reversed.

    Favre has 22 TD's but 8 picks and 8 fumbles to Brady's 39-4-4, not to mention Tom has a couple of rushing TD's. Brett's had a couple of games with more picks than TD's or multiple picks and no TD's. I think if you replaced him with Tony Romo it's a wash. Brady has been dominant with a newly assembled core of WR that as a group represents one of the top 3 in the league. But none of them were top 10 in the league on other teams in the last couple of seasons. Part of the synergy was bringing them together, but most of it is matching them with Brady. Kinda like Manning's perennial triplets - each of whom might be very good elsewhere but excel as a unit under his direction. Both of those teams can withstand losses to some extent but not the loss of that QB. A number of the QB's mg mentions could have done what Brett has done in GB recently - this season included.

    BTW - there was a myth that he would have to "do it all" without a running game, only an UDFA back has stepped up since their bye and chipped in an average of 93 rushing yards per game and 112 all purpose yards per game (and nary a fumble) for the last 5 games...

    But as always the Brett Farve myth glosses over the little details that don't lend themselves to ballwashing. He didn't kill them early on this season, which is the only real difference, and that gave them a chance to build on something for a change in a weak conference.
  18. the taildragger

    the taildragger Rookie

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    Right, Moss > Welker.

    We understand how Randy draws coverage and how valuable he is....most of you guys spent years trying to devalue receivers, now all of a sudden they're more important than equally great QBs.

    How exactly does the fact that defenses SOMETIMES key on Randy over Wes make him more valuable than 12? Defenses can contain Randy pretty well....even in an offense where he is complimented by two other all-star receivers....but they can't shut down TB. Period.

    It's not a one-way street here. Do you really think Randy is breaking records and having a career year without the other receivers, not to mention Tom??

    It comes down to positional value guys. Stop fooling yourselves. You have to look at the impact all three receivers are having this year, but don't take for granted the fact that the baseline for this offense was pretty high WITHOUT these guys....and for that you can thank a guy who has won zero MVPs despite having five seasons like Favre is having this year....

    BUT THIS IS FAVRE'S BEST SEASON!

    And he is a real American and endorses wrangler and trucks and has fun out there and has a swell wife and cries tears of molten steel.....Tom has won too much already and gets any babe he wants.

    Let's just name it the Brett Favre popularity award, because if there's even a debate this season it's just a popularity award.

    You can make the case for Brett....he's more valuable to his team RIGHT NOW than TB is to his....but that doesn't automatically make him the LEAGUE MVP.

    Again, I have no issue with anyone making the case for Favre this year, but only if you were consistent in your rationale in years when Manning and LT were putting up RECORD numbers due largely to their supporting casts, and voted instead for Tom in 2001, 2003, 2005, 2005, and especially 2006.

    As for Moss, I love the guy, but all this talk of him being more valuable than TB is making me nauseous. Randy looks up to Tom....he wouldn't let any of you vote for him this season.
  19. TheGodInAGreyHoodie

    TheGodInAGreyHoodie Rookie

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    Here is how I select an MVP, which player going down at the end of the AFCCG and being out for the SB would cause you to cringe the most.

    Granted I want to see both Moss and Brady on the field for the SB, but if my choice would be to have Moss in and Cassel at QB or Moss out and Brady throwing to all the other receivers he has. I can live w/o Moss, therefore Brady is MVP.
  20. bradmahn

    bradmahn Rookie

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    Honestly, I feel Brett Favre is doing nothing more than what Brady did in '05, and I think all Patriots fans would agree that Green Bay's defense this year is vastly superior to the '05 Patriots' D. Brady didn't have a running game in '05 and was forced to take to the air to win games. Receivers-wise they have similar players, while I'd say as a unit the Pats were possibly deeper, but at the top two players Green Bay is better (Driver+Jennings>Branch+Givens).

    I thought (and I remember seeing some others voice these same opinions) that Brady was the MVP that season, in the truest sense of the award, but he lost out to someone who had a superior, record-breaking statistical season.

    If the award is going to be selected in the same way that it has in the past I don't think there will be any doubt as to who deserves it- and there shouldn't be a sudden change in it's functioning definition now that Brady deserves it most.
  21. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    As far as most "valuable", Albert Haynesworth should get consideration.

    With him, they're a top 5 defense, without him, they're sieve-like.
  22. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, the best definition of "Most Valuable Player" isn't really "most valuable player". It's a combination of things. One of the reasons there is often a lot of disagreement about who deserves the MVP is because definitions do vary - sometimes a lot.

    Dealing with it strictly as a "If I subbed a player for him, where would the team be" is a very poor definition IMO. I think it should be primarily about how well a player plays (in conjunction with the importance of the position) with the player's impact on the team also strongly considered.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  23. holyredeemer

    holyredeemer Rookie

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    I honestly cant understand why Randy Moss gets so much credit for how explosive this offense is. Brady is sooooo much better with Moss here, they say. I disagree. Look, Moss is a great player, I wont deny that, but I didnt see him turning any of the Raiders QB's into stars with him. Quite the opposite. Moss played down to their level.

    So, now one has to argue why Moss has turned it back on here in N.E. Surrounding him with the type of players we have, no doubt helped, but the additions of Welker and Stallworth often gives Moss single coverage. I know we can all argue about this forever, but this is how I see it.

    You can have the fastest, most incredibly powerful car in the world. But, without the keys to that car, it's just fun to look at, and nothing else.

    Moss is that car, and Brady is the key that turns it on.
  24. dakevdude

    dakevdude Rookie

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    I have to disagree. Randy Moss DOES make the Pats offense alot more explosive. Brady's stats this year proves it. Heck...last weeks Eagles game proved it. With Moss out of the equation...you are looking at around 28-34 points per game for the Pats. With Moss making plays...they are averaging around 40+.

    > Brady is sooooo much better with Moss here, they say. I disagree
    WRONG! Brady IS sooooo much better with Moss here. Have you been watching any of the Patriots games this year at all???

    > but the additions of Welker and Stallworth often gives Moss single coverage
    WRONG! Moss will get the majority of double coverages...thereby leaving other receivers with single coverage...and sometime a linebacker at that...

    As for the debate of who should be MVP...I'm not sure why we are even arguing about this...the QB position will always have the upper hand. Even if Brady and Moss both have great seasons...the MVP will go to Brady hands down.

    But also someone previously said that if Brady went to the Raiders he would make them a wild card playoff team. This is also wrong. I don't think Brady would last very long with that offensive line. The only QB that might survive behind that line is probably Vick due to his scrambling abilitity.

    To be honest...I wish they would give the MVP to the Pats offensive line...LOL...cause they are one of the best O-Line out there and it all really starts with those "fat" guys...
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  25. PatSunday

    PatSunday Rookie

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    We've been #1 in the AFC East 6 of the 7 most recent seasons.

    He's started the season 6 times. He holds 6 tickets to the playoffs.

    Without Brady, Moss wouldn't even be a Patriot.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  26. Xzibit23

    Xzibit23 Rookie

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    I dont get it when people keep on bringing up Moss is 2 years with the Raiders, citing how he didn't make a difference there. The Raiders had the worst OLine, the worst coaching, and arguably the worst QB. Footbal is the ULTIMATE team sport, give Tom Brady that OLine and that coaching staff and he would struggle considerably. Just as how Moss is singular talent requires the pieces around him, Brady requires the same...lets not act like the '06 Pats were the '06 Raiders.
  27. nokturnal

    nokturnal Rookie

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    good point. not to mention people are conveniently forgetting his years with the vikings. during his time in MN the vikes were 64-48 and went to two NFC championship games with virtually nothing at QB. and don't forget he made that 15-1 squad in 98.

    and does everyone think it's just a coincidence that what will be the two top scoring offenses of all time featured randy moss???

    i still think brady's the mvp but it's not outrageous to have moss in the discussion.
  28. Brady to Brown

    Brady to Brown Rookie

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    Its Brady by a mile. Brady made Caldwell, Gaffney, Branch, Givens and Patten look like superstars. Randy is a good WR, but he's no Brady.
  29. FrontSeven

    FrontSeven Rookie

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    Bottom line is that the QB touches the ball on every play.

    To his credit, Randy influences every play, and he's on the field for a high percentage of plays. He's a workaholic, and he makes a lot of things happen when the ball doesn't go to him.

    But the QB touches the ball more.

    As far as Randy "failing" against the Eagles: He caught a long TD pass, remember? No, you don't because it got stolen from him.
  30. Xzibit23

    Xzibit23 Rookie

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    This is a Pats board and there's understandable favoritism towards Brady, but minus the SBs Moss has been just as good at his position as Brady has been at his. Lets not kid ourselves, when its all said and done, Randy Moss, by many, will be considered one of the 2-3 greatest WRs to ever play the game, and has a legitimate chance of building a legacy thats comparable to Jetty Rice. The same way Brady made average receivers overperform, Moss made average QBs looks elite. When it comes to accomplishment on the individual level, Moss takes a backseat to no one and all people have to hang their hats on is those 2 years in Oakland, one of which was a 1,000+ season anyway.
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