Michael Smith isn't all that high on the Patriots

[Patjew]

Actually, Ive been thinking (even before the trade) that the defense wouldnt look too good until about half way through the season. Too many new faces. I think once they've had some time together, they'll start looking good. Im just hoping they have it firing on all 8 cylinders by the POs.

I think the Pats will pull out the wins, but i think we're going to see some 01 Pats. You know, the ugly wins . Now without Seymour, I think they will survive, but i wouldve preferred that he was here. I still support the trade when factoring in everything else though.

I trust BB as much as anyone does, but I guess I'm too short-sighted to not worry about how losing Sey affects the D and the team's SB chances.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

I trust BB as much as anyone does, but I guess I'm too short.

I thought everyone in China was short?

 

[Patjew]

I thought everyone in China was short?

Everyone except me (5'9") and Yao (7'5").

 

[Rob0729]

I listen... Holley has eluded to it in the past as have some of the locals. I can't remember exactly what it was over but it made their relationship pretty tense just before he left. And Bill isn't one to forgive and forget.

So Belichick and Smith hate each other. Felger and Belichick hate each other and Belichick purposely sent players to screw with Felger because he hated him. Sorry I ain't buying it.

Knowing what I know about Holley, if there was tension between Smith and Belichick and neither were letting on, Holley wouldn't be the one who outed this contention. Holley and Smith are friends (Holley has said that before) and I doubt he would compromise Smith's trust by illuding to that. Besides, Smith is non-confrontational and not controversial.

Sorry, if Bill hated Smith so much, no way would he have the scoop of his contract extension. No way would Smith sit on the story and release it when the Patriots wanted it released. I just can't see that happening. Smith's timing of his Belichick contract extension story was in great benefit to Belichick because it was a week after Spygate broke.

Besides, it is irrelevant since although you say Smith said these things because he has an ax to grind, he has been in the past (as recently as last year) one of the biggest Belichick and Patriots "homers" in the media. Smith rarely if ever says anything that isn't glowing about Belichick or the Pats. That's why I started this thread because his shots at the Pats' defense are out of character for him. He was the one immediately after Brady went down who guaranteed the Pats would win 11 to 12 games because of Belichick.

 

[Pats726]

I predicted they'd go with the Balt, Pitt & SD # little fishy when vegas has NE as a clear #1 but not bspn. we're getting our share of love too PKing & others, but honestly we'd all rather fly under the radar anyway.

It is interesting that Vegas has NE high & ESPN doesn't; that is no surprise.

I love how the media is also trying to make bill look like a meanie for forcing Richard to "relocate his family from mass." # the media can't stand BB. He is an ******* to them so they go out of their way to make him look like scrooge.

Again, typical ESPN; BB haters; remember lie gate?

BB has made mistakes. this isn't the deion branch fiasco.
I was the only poster on this board at the time who questioned the sanity of that decision. everyone else was saying, goodbye Deion, you are a selfish me-first guy, we don't need you we're just fine wtih Caldwell and Gabriel, etc Having a legit receiver on taht team earns us a ring in 06 & whatever extra 1-2 mill that DB was asking for he was worth & we all know it now. DB threatened to sit out the REG season & NE hadn't dealt with that before. NE was looking at DB's value on the open market as not being very high & using that as leverage against him. But BB refused to acknowledge that Deion's value to NE was greater than any other team because of his RAPPORT with TB & and that DB understood this and that ultimately that gave him the upper hand at the table (& rightfully so to a certain extent). the rapport with TB is what made his value exceed what it was elsewhere based on his pure talent alone. Bill really let his ego get in the way of that one & we learned the hard way. And we were talking about FAR LESS money than we are with sey. The moral of that one was that you better consult with TB before letting a cheap receiver walk who put in thousands of hours of practice with him;.they learned & basically any receiver who gets let go now, is a guy who TB doesn't like. But that summer Tom told PKing that he didn't want DB to be let go * BB ignored him & took the economic hard line stance. I'm not suggesting that BB should ever "overpay" anyone, I'm just suggesting that we totally missed DB's true value.

Firstly, the team had a big lead in that game,the offense got points on the board, it wasn't the O that did not do the job, it was a tired and sick D that gave up all the points. As far as I know DB plays on one side of the ball.
Actually Branch earlier in the year said that he was going to HONOR his contract and then basically turned it over to his agent. It was his friend Givens who was a FA and he was not happy that he wasn't as well. I also think the fact that the Patriots went after DMason earlier that year for big bucks did not please him. And that was when Deion put himself first and threatened not to play. There was nothing RIGHT with what he did. It was PURE GREED and yet the team negotiated, although at that point, DB had basically made his decision about not playing. It has nothing to do about letting a "cheap receiver walk" it has more to do with a contract that existed that a greedy player failed to honor. If you think that is all ego you missed the point entirely as to what happened. If anything the Patriots went beyond where they should have to sign him to an extension, but the decision by DB was already made and the Pats had no choice.

But you can't sit there & pretend that every move BB makes is wrong like Felger & expect anyone to take you seriously. tonight he even said that the Buff had better receivers than NE! Yeah, the most talented deep threat in the history of the league & the best slot receiver in the game, but Felger says, "yeah, but who do they have after that." #

If Felger said that, he's just trying to stir the pot. If he really believes that and he may, he's dumber than the nearest stone wall and why I don't pay attention to him.

but the seymour deal is easily equal net present value #no FO makes decisions based solely on the current season #they'd be laughed out of the league. it's a salary cap system. # it's not just win right now at all costs. the fans dont' get it and they never will. YOU CAN'T KEEP EVERYONE. you have to manage the cap & that means looking at FUTURE years. As great players get older, their performance DECLINES, but their contract value usually INCREASES. If fans could understand this basic economic principle & realize that under a salary cap you have to avoid this AT ALL COSTS. especially when Davis gives away his top pick in teh draft.

I think you have said something quite large here about how a player's contract increases and at some point their playing ability decreases;it's an important evaluation to not sign a player to a big deal when you think a player's ability is headed down. This is hardly an exact science and there are some exceptions;Seau;Galloway; older beyond most and can play. So a team would rather let go of a player a bit before this happens rather than waiting and having a big contract with one on the decline. And it's more value than anything else. A top player on the decline might have value, but at a more reasonable dollar.

Sey is going to suck in Oak. the guy plays when he wants to now# takes off plays #takes off games#inconsistent & I really think it speaks about his conditioning. BB doesn't want him to train down in SC because he knows he ISN'T training he's BBQing & giant DTs need to stay in really good shape as they get toward the 10 yr mark. borges is a friend & would never admit it, but it's not just the injuries that have hurt richard, it's his age, & also his conditioning. How much effort is he going to give out in OAK!?
if word had leaked that Davis had offered NE a high 1st rnd pick for an aging DT in the last yr of his contract but NE balked & didn't do the deal, the radio people like Felger would be SCREAMING at him after all, he let Cassel go to his buddy Pioli for a 2nd rounder, why wouldn't he be willing to part with Sey at this stage of his career for that kind of value. They are all contrarians.

I tend to agree..those same big mouths that hate this deal would be doing the same thing in retrospect.."you mean they had a first round pick from Oakland and did not do the deal?" Absolutely true..it's more to stir the pot..no matter which way it goes..and sadly, I believe the mediots(media-idiots) have really driven the dislike for the trade. I don;t think he will do poorly in Oakland..or wherever he may end up, but I do think he's more on the decline and that might take a few years to happen. But being on the downswing of a 5 year deal after 2 years is more likely what could happen. Which is why I am sure he wants so much guaranteed and up front. THAT wasn't happening here..and a 3rd round pick would have been scoffed at by the media.."Seymour walks, the team gets a 3rd could have had more." Again contrarians.

as for whether Sey's feelings are hurt who effing cares. Deal with it #you wanted to play hardball with NE good for you they can play that game too. It's a business, just like YOU always said.

Another good point it's a business, so it's a business when you grab your large contract as well as when you get traded to Oakland deal!

Same bs with BMarshall. All the former avg players who are now commentators acting like he is a "distraction" & not being "a team player" IT'S THE OFFSEASON he'll show up & play the games & be a great teammate, just like 9 out of 10 other great players who try to negotiate their way into more money by holding out or being a malcontent. it's a NEGOTIATING tactic. They players are nowadays instructed by their agents to hold out or act dissatisfied with their deals. It's how the league works at the superstar level. Most of the guys on TV, like Dilfer, THasselbeck were not superstars & do not understand this principle.

You don't think Marshall is a distraction?? If what he did was a negotiating tactic, it's a poor one. It only works if teams give in to such nonsense and more and more teams are not. The only negotiating he is doing is out the door. If more teams did that it would not work, but there are always some left that buy into that. Marshall had a good year but not a superstar now.

It's almost always a political reason behind these picks though. for ex it's well known that MSmith is desperate to earn national respect & that he's afraid of being seen as a homer. Notice he always makes sure to mention PManning & THEN Brady when mentioning the best QBs in the league. please don't think that's an accident.
I like the fact that Schefter isn't afraid to say Den is underated. I agree & he's right, but most guys who used to beat report for a team #ESPECIALLY ex-BOS media members #are usually afraid to go there.

Smith like most seem to go for the easy picks; the bland; and without big names..HOW could the Patriots D REALLY be all that good? No Bruschi, Harrison, Vrabel, Seymour I mean HOW could the D be good? Again, it's more an understanding of how the whole is as compared to the parts. Without Harrison, Vrabel, Bruschi and Seymour, there are holes, but with a 43..the holes aren't exactly the same. The team is replacing Seymour NOT in a 34..but in a 43..which is a bit different. Same with Bruschi and Vrabel. What is lacking in the D..big point might be leadership..but Mayo, Thomas Warren and others in the backfield will step it up. I also like the fact that the ESPN types and more are not hyping the team..under the radar is a lot better than being a sitting target.
TO the OP..I tried to include all, but 10000 char limit..

 

[spacecrime]

dont care about what he says but objectively its not wrong to say that our defense has questions right now. jason campbell of all people was able to throw at and over our corners for e.g . yes preseason granted but nothing wrong in admitting that we have lot of unknown on defense at this juncture and how it will play out unlike the offense.

You don't know any more about the offense than youy do about the defense. No eam is a guaranteed lock for anything. But either you feel good about the Pats chances or you don't. Smith does not, based on preseason play. There isn't much dumber than basing anything on preseason as different teams have different priorities. I read once that the Steelers would deliberately set the defense in the wrong formation to see who players react to being out of position and to give them practice a recovering. They would have a worse preseason than a team that tries hard to win preseason games by stunting, etc for whatever reason, but which team will come out of presaeson stronger (althoukgh with a worse record and horrible stats)?

The Lions were 4-0 last preseason.

We should remember that

 

[ivanvamp]

He was on the ESPN Preseason show and he multiple times talked about the Pats' defense negatively. He pointed out "I know it is preseason, but the Pats had the 32nd ranked defense in the league this preseason" (granted he failed to point out that only 27 of the 96 points allowed was by the first defense) and when Trey Wingo asked why no one picked the the Pats for the Super Bowl winner on the panel, Smith replied "Defense wins championships". He did speak glowingly about Brady though.

I don't care what he thinks of the Pats' defense, but I do think it's fair to say that the D won't be as good as in years past. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we'll see a lot more 31-27 games and a lot fewer 27-13 games.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't care what he thinks of the Pats' defense, but I do think it's fair to say that the D won't be as good as in years past. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we'll see a lot more 31-27 games and a lot fewer 27-13 games.

Well, until they prove otherwise, no one could reasonably argue that this defense is remotely as good as the 2003 or 2004 defense. But then again, you don't need a defense that good to do damage with the offense the Pats have.

On the 2003 kick, did anyone really think the Pats were going to have as good of a defense as they did that year before the season started. The defense in 2002 was putrid against the run and they rebuilt the entire secondary other than Law with a converted CB at safety, a Harrison that people thought was just about done, and an unheralded Tyrone Poole who was considered a good nickelback, but a mediocre starter. They had a lot of turnover on defense that season too ousting starters including Anthony Pleasants (ok, he was only ousted from the starting lineup), Lawyer Milloy, Tebucky Jones, Steve Martin, and Otis Smith.They added Ted Washington mid-preseason because they had no legitimate NT. Maybe lightning could strike twice.

 

[GullyFoyle]

Eh, I like Smith but his opinion and everyone else's opinion on ESPN doesn't matter to me. A year ago, they were all saying how we needed to get younger, our defense was way too old, long in the tooth, etc. etc. etc. Now we ARE younger on defense and it's still not good enough. Either way, we can't win. We as Pats fans should know that by now.

Thats what I was just yelling at the TV

 

[Ryan]

As others have said, I'm glad a lot of the media is jumping off the Pats' bandwagon. They won 3 Super Bowls when the media doubted them all of the time.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

This is awesome. I hope all the hate from the media concerning our D catches like a California wildfire and spreaddds.

Forget being favorites year in and year out.

Forget going undefeated during the regular season. Where did that get us?

Our D can look shaky to start, but Brady will still win us some games. All of our new acquisitions, the FA's and the Rooks will figure it out, and BB and his staff will figure his new toys out. When the game matters most, they'll be making less mistakes.

Here's a salute to losin some games this yr. and getting angry again. :eat1:

I agree. We are young on defense. They might not be world beaters out of the gate but that is how we fly under the radar and gain some mojo.

On paper this team could be DANGEROUS.

In reality, I like to watch the games and let other people do the guessing and speculating. However, I am sort of feeling inspired this year about this team.

But I do not expect an easy path. All our glory years followed a tough path.

I welcome the disrespect card. That is like fuel to the Pats.

 

[QB12]

I agree. We are young on defense. They might not be world beaters out of the gate but that is how we fly under the radar and gain some mojo.

On paper this team could be DANGEROUS.

In reality, I like to watch the games and let other people do the guessing and speculating. However, I am sort of feeling inspired this year about this team.

But I do not expect an easy path. All our glory years followed a tough path.

I welcome the disrespect card. That is like fuel to the Pats.

Watching Myron Pryor, he's got a motor. He's like the little engine that could, but with some nastiness. I see some nastiness in our D this year, a little attitude that we've been lacking for too damn long.

QB12

 

[JSn]

Watching Myron Pryor, he's got a motor. He's like the little engine that could, but with some nastiness. I see some nastiness in our D this year, a little attitude that we've been lacking for too damn long.

QB12

Hearing that teams were inquiring about Pryor during the pre-season has me excited to see him play.

That said, he didn't practice today.

 

[Oswlek]

How was BB wrong about Branch? Branch wanted way more money than he was worth. If Bill did as you wanted, we wouldve been paying 6mil a year to a guy who has barely seen the field since that trade. Branch forced that trade, and BB worked with what he had.

The team didnt do to bad that year. Then with a huge lead from the first half of the afccg, the WRs let the team down by playing defense, and giving up a crap load of points.....that is what you're saying right? That if Branch had played defense in the afccg, that we wouldve won the SB in 06? I just want to make sure i read your post correctly. The WRs didnt cost us a SB. Keep in mind, we didnt have a running game that day either. Though i suppose for that kind of money, Branch couldve been a RB too.

BTW, maybe there is a reason that you were the only one on this board to question the Branch trade.....

As the final minutes were clicking away on Branch's NE career, he and BB were on the phone. BB told him that he would give him the same contract Seattle offered if he would fire Chayut. It seems both Brady and BB valued Branch more highly than you.

The 2nd half of your comment is one of the most propigated misnomers out there. Of course Branch could have helped the defense! By letting the offense stay on the field more!

From the moment NE scored their 3rd touchdown, their offensive drives had the following amount of plays:

6
3
5
3
6
5
3

Not a single drive lasted into the 3 minute territory. Read that line again. Not one single drive NE had in the second half was longer than 2:44.

In fairness, the first 5 yard one resulted in a TD off a long KO return, but that doesn't change the fact that the defense was back on the field two and a half minutes later.

If NE had made a single 5 or 6 minute drive in the second half, NE wins that game and the defense doesn't get nearly as gassed. It is a team game, and the whole team failed on that one.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Still amazes me how these guys always say "I know it's preseason BUT..." That should be a mental red flag to simply shut up and rethink what you are saying. The only things we know for certain this year is the Steelers will have an insane defense and the Patriots will have an insane offense. Everything else we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Vegas having the Pats as high as it has them does *not* necessarily mean that Vegas expects the Pats to win it all. It means that 4 to 1 are the odds that it thinks it will take to even out the money on either side. Significant difference.

As far as Smith, he makes some good points. To anyone who doesn't think that our D has major problems, please feel free to point out what it is, exactly, that you expect our defense to do exceptionally well. The D had a lot of weaknesses last year and, while I expect the secondary to be somewhat improved, losing Seymour makes it far from a slam dunk that the defense will be better than last year. Which is worrisome, because the Pats aren't playing the two worst divisions in the NFL this year.

 

[BradyManny]

Not a single drive lasted into the 3 minute territory. Read that line again. Not one single drive NE had in the second half was longer than 2:44.

In fairness, the first 5 yard one resulted in a TD off a long KO return, but that doesn't change the fact that the defense was back on the field two and a half minutes later.

If NE had made a single 5 or 6 minute drive in the second half, NE wins that game and the defense doesn't get nearly as gassed. It is a team game, and the whole team failed on that one.

True. Not to mention the complete abandonment of the run in that game and in Super Bowl 42. Not to knock McD who was a offensive genius and will be missed, but I hope we see more patience in the running game this season.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

True. Not to mention the complete abandonment of the run in that game and in Super Bowl 42. Not to knock McD who was a offensive genius and will be missed, but I hope we see more patience in the running game this season.

We'll see what an offensive genius McDaniels turns out to be when he has Kyle Orton under center. The true offensive geniuses have always been BB and Brady. Ever notice how no one ever comes out of New England and leads their new team to success, yet the Patriots keep winning every season.

I remember when Mike Martz was the smartest coach in NFL history playing in a dome with Warner, Faulk, Holt, and Bruce. Why is it his teams struggle to score 17 points now?

 

[BradyManny]

We'll see what an offensive genius McDaniels turns out to be when he has Kyle Orton under center. The true offensive geniuses have always been BB and Brady. Ever notice how no one ever comes out of New England and leads their new team to success, yet the Patriots keep winning every season.

I remember when Mike Martz was the smartest coach in NFL history playing in a dome with Warner, Faulk, Holt, and Bruce. Why is it his teams struggle to score 17 points now?

We will see - I think McD was a pretty savvy gameplanner. No doubt Belichick & Brady deserve a lot of credit, but what McD did last season w/ Cassel was pretty impressive.

 

[Oswlek]

The interesting thing about the defensive worries is that people don't realize the context.

In the first game, NE was running all sorts of lineman out there to get a feel for how each package worked together. They also played a lot of 1 gap 4 man lines that guys weren't accustomed to, and were pretty bad against the run. Despite this, Philly really didn't pass that well against NE's first team defense, it was only once the 2s got on the field that Feeley drove the team up and down.

Against Cincy we saw a return of the 3-4 (and Ty Warren) and they had no running room whatsoever. Wheatley had an ugly play on 4th and forever but that was 1:1 coverage that NE would never ask him to do in a regular season game. Other than that, I don't recall Cincy moving at will.

In the 3rd game Wash had a nice first drive, but their entire passing offense after in the first half was a blown coverage and a terrible QB contain, both by guys no longer on the team. The 4 man line returned and was just as dominant against the run as they were the week before in the 3-4.

Lastly, the Giants game started with 1s on 3s. Of course that is going to be a mismatch, yet NE still did OK against a very strong running team. Passing was a completely different situation, but the guys who gave up most of that yardage, Rogers and Love, were gone almost immediately. On top of that, Chung gave up 2 TDs on coverage responsibilities he won't likely be asked to make in the regular season. There are enormous differences between rolling coverages and taking over a receiver deep and sticking with a waterbug from the line on.

I, for one, expect this defense to not only not be the issue people seem think, but to be one of the best 5-7 defenses in the league by seasons end.