Manning’s 51st touchdown pass will add another flawed record to the books…

[everlong]

None of these 12 historically prolific Seasons produced a Championship.

Yep I'll gladly conceed the record to Manning for a Patriot's championship this year and of course Peyton moving to a 9-12 career post season record.

 

[Galeb]

I didn’t say the touchdowns were flawed I said the premise of Manning holding a record for touchdowns when 66% of the 41 he has thrown so far this season would not even result in a new set of downs if judged on the distances thrown.:bricks:

I just don't get it. There isn't anything wrong with small ball. Remember Brady in 2010? That was a thing of beauty.

 

[FirstAndGoal]

Never realized how many girlfriends Brady has. Who gives a crap about his records? Unless you're his girlfriend, you shouldn't care. I guess there are football fans and then there are people who think the team/players success somehow is a reflection of them...it isn't. It has no bearing on your life and has no bearing on whether you should enjoy the game or not.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Most looking at this from a subjective contextual standpoint already knew most of this.

He throws a lot within the 5 yard-line. And a lot of screen passes behind the line of scrimmage that are taken the distance by his WRs.

Manning is playing a lot of small ball, dinking and dunking his way to his TDs. In 2007, Brady was throwing bombs over Baghdad. In isolation, the latter is always going to be more impressive.

Along with that, I still believe Manning's 2004 season is more impressive than this year's as well, for the same reasons outlined above.

Patriots won Super Bowls with a QB playing small ball and dinking and dunking his way to TD's. Some of us think that's what needs to happen again if the Patriots are to win another one.

 

[BradyManny]

I think we now know that BB was right: stats are for losers.

Let Peyton have 51 TDs. All that matters is the ring. If Peyton gets a ring over Brady, the TD record will not make it feel worse. If Brady gets the ring, I could care less about a GD TD record.

 

[BradyManny]

Patriots won Super Bowls with a QB playing small ball and dinking and dunking his way to TD's. Some of us think that's what needs to happen again if the Patriots are to win another one.

Yes, because if they dinked and dunked more in 2007 & 2011, then David Tyree would've dropped the ball that landed on his helmet and Wes Welker would've caught the pass that hit him on the hands. Way to only evaluate something based purely on the outcome with complete disregard to the aspect of randomness involved.

 

[upstater1]

The only thing I take from this is that people can't bag on Brady for being a dinker and dunker.

Also, last year's Brady stats were impressive if you eralize Brady could have possibly converted those 24 rushing TDs to passing TDs. The Packers for instance only ran it in 7 times. Imagine if half of those 24 were dink passes. Brady would have had another stellar season.

 

[mgcolby]

What nonsense the OP is spewing.

If Peyton breaks the record , he breaks the record.

Are you aware that Colts fans think Brady's record is flawed because he didn't do it in 15 games ?

Which is an ignorant argument. Because Brady actually threw those 50 TD's in less on the field time than Peyton did in 2004. I know this because I broke it down to the second back in 07 when dolt fans kept coming in here spewing that garbage. And for some reason they irked me to the point where I broke it down. Brady sat so much late in games that year that nearly missed an entire game worth of playing time.

With that said Manning can throw for 60 TDs for all I care as long as Brady and co hoist the Lombardi in New Jersey home of the New York football teams!

 

[Brady6]

I just don't get it. There isn't anything wrong with small ball. Remember Brady in 2010? That was a thing of beauty.

First I am not saying there is anything wrong with it I just think that Manning is receiving the bulk of recognition and his receivers are going unnoticed for their excellence that was not the case in 2007 or 2010 for Brady.

Brady threw 36 touchdowns, 3 with a pass thrown behind the line of scrimmage, 18 with a pass thrown 1-10 yards and 15 with a pass thrown 11 yards or further. Of Manning 41 touchdowns he has 5 touchdowns along with 5 interceptions on a pass 21 yards or further, in 2010 Brady had 6 touchdowns along with just 2 interceptions on a pass 21 yards or further. 2010 was a great season by Brady but he was effective at all levels as a passer and he also did not set a record on touchdown passes.

 

[Brady6]

Patriots won Super Bowls with a QB playing small ball and dinking and dunking his way to TD's. Some of us think that's what needs to happen again if the Patriots are to win another one.

No they didn’t they did not win the super bowl with Brady throwing fade routes from the 1 yard line to his 6’4 receiver in Q4, we ran the football in and played football for wins and not records. In 2003 and 2004 the Patriots last super bowls this are Brady’s touchdown splits:

2003
• Pass thrown behind line of scrimmage yards: 0 touchdowns
• Pass thrown 1-10 yards: 5 touchdowns
• Pass thrown 11+ yards: 18 touchdowns

Which mean 18 of his 23 touchdowns were on a pass thrown 11 yards or further down the field.

2004
• Pass thrown behind line of scrimmage yards: 2 touchdowns
• Pass thrown 1-10 yards: 9 touchdowns
• Pass thrown 11+ yards: 17 touchdowns

Which mean 17 of his 28 touchdowns were on a pass thrown 11 yards or further down the field.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

For the record the title of the thread does not really represent what I was trying to convey, I don’t think the record will be flawed per say I just feel it will be less impressive than what Brady did in 2007 due to the degree of difficulty. I am unable to change the title otherwise I would change to something like “An interesting comparison of Brady’s 07’ vs. Manning’s 13’ touchdown record”.

That's reasonable and a good place to start a dialogue.

My view is simple. If we "*" or view as "flawed" records set in different ways or under different rules, then all NFL records would at least have to be categorized by a reference to the rules in effect at the time and, in the specific case you are arguing, by whether and how far the pass went beyond the line of scrimmage.

For the reasons stated in my longer post, I completely disagree with the former but can understand the sentiment behind the latter.

If you are suggesting that the rules of the NFL should be changed to say that passes that do not go beyond the line of scrimmage or more than five yards downfield should be considered as "rushes" or otherwise discounted as "passes," I would think that that is an interesting suggestion. I wouldn't agree but it would merit discussion

Brady and Peyton Manning have played 16 game seasons in a very different era and under very different definitions, interpretations and enforcements of the rules than did Blanda, Tittle or Unitas (and, as to the rules, indeed than did Marino and Montana). However, I think that the records set by Brady and Peyton in a 16 game season are every bit as valid as those set in a 12 game season when there was, furthermore, also quite a bit of leeway given to the defensive secondary and pass rushers (or "maulers" as the case may actually have been).

Wrapping up a point from my earlier post re Blanda. George Blanda's plaque and resume in Canton include his entire career, including the 1961 season, the relevance of which you have disputed: Hall of Famers » GEORGE BLANDA.

If that definition of his career is good enough for the Hall of Fame, it's good enough for me. You are free, of course, to disagree, but I doubt you will muster arguments that change my mind.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Brady6]

Just like we always say a win is a win, a TD is a TD whether it's a 1 yard toss or 50 yard bomb. The point of the game is for the field general to guide his team down the field. When a TD is scored they are successful regardless of distance travelled.

I think when you’re speaking in terms of records the circumstances and degree of difficulty has to come into play. That’s just my personal opinion, I am not seeking agreement the reason I shared is I found the splits to be very interesting and thought it was worthwhile to share with the rest of you all.

 

[jmt57]

Apologies in advance if my responses are redundant as I have not taken the time to read through this entire thread.

I am a realist and I know Manning is going to break the record

This is not a fait accompli. In 2007 Brady threw only 12 TD in his final six games, and Manning needs to average 2.5 per game; the dip in Manning's numbers during his career late in the season has been well documented.

Granted Manning and Fox know how many they need (just as Brady and BB did) to break the record, but it is not automatic. Through 12 games in 2007 Brady had 41 TD passes; Manning also has 41 through 12 games. Those proclamations from a month or two ago by he alleged NFL experts that he was going to shatter the TD record and pass for at least 60, maybe 70 TD are conveniently forgotten today.

and truthfully I could care less

The fact that this thread was made makes me think otherwise.

I did think it was worthwhile to point out exactly how much different their performances actually are. Just to reinforce how much the talent is doing to help Manning to this record, 24 of his touchdowns have been caught by D. Thomas, Decker, Welker or J. Thomas on a pass thrown behind the line of scrimmage to 10 yards.

Ironically this is remarkably similar to the argument used by fans of other teams that have disparaged Brady for his entire career - by referring to him as a game manager in a dink and dunk passing offense - and that later on his numbers improved strictly because of having the benefit of quality receivers such as Moss, Welker and Gronkowski.

 

[PATS16N0]

Hey, OP:

I know how you feel. I know exactly how you feel.

I posted this on the Colts forum. Maybe it'll cheer you up. I hope so, because it's the absolute truth.

That's the thing. It really won't. At the end of the day, it all comes down to championships.

Stats are only relevant in the minds of fans in the present. Ten years after a guy retires, it isn't really brought up. It's forgotten.

A 20 year old today never watched Marino play. They might hear he had great mechanics, a great arm, a great this, a great that, but it doesn't ultimately matter because they also know he has no championships. He also knows Montana had four. This is why people who weren't even alive to see Joe Montana play still put him as #1 of all time.

Sure, there are plenty of 50 year old Dolphin fans that still claim and will tell people that Dan Marino was really the best, but it comes off as an old man rambling.

When Marino first retired, people had him in the GOAT discussion, "it was just a shame he never got that ring." Now, time has ran its course and he isn't even close to the GOAT discussion. Twenty years from now he'll be a footnote in NFL history. Montana, though, is still regarded as GOAT by many, maybe even most, including people who didn't see him take a single snap.

In the end, championships are what stand the test of time, and rightfully so. That's what matters.

Individual stats scatter with the wind shortly after that player retires

Moral of the story? If Peyton breaks Brady's touchdown record, it'll be little more than troll bait for Peyton apologists. When it's all said and done, it won't mean a single thing. After Brady and Peyton retire, you're going to see this GOAT conversation gradually start shifting very radically in Brady's favor.

Yeah, you're going to have to listen to some annoying people on the internet boast about it in the very short term, but after that, it's not going to matter.

10 years from now, Brady is going to remain in the conversation along side Joe Montana, and Peyton Manning is going to begin his drift towards Dan Marino and Dan Fouts.

Sleep easy.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I think when you’re speaking in terms of records the circumstances and degree of difficulty has to come into play. That’s just my personal opinion, I am not seeking agreement the reason I shared is I found the splits to be very interesting and thought it was worthwhile to share with the rest of you all.

That's very different than the tone of your original post and your response to my first (and accurate!) post. If you had written in that vein, I would have replied differently.

And, next time, leave out the 's when challenging facts. Any of us can be wrong at any given time.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Apologies in advance if my responses are redundant as I have not taken the time to read through this entire thread.


This is not a fait accompli. In 2007 Brady threw only 12 TD in his final six games, and Manning needs to average 2.5 per game; the dip in Manning's numbers during his career late in the season has been well documented.

Granted Manning and Fox know how many they need (just as Brady and BB did) to break the record, but it is not automatic. Through 12 games in 2007 Brady had 41 TD passes; Manning also has 41 through 12 games. Those proclamations from a month or two ago by he alleged NFL experts that he was going to shatter the TD record and pass for at least 60, maybe 70 TD are conveniently forgotten today.



The fact that this thread was made makes me think otherwise.



Ironically this is remarkably similar to the argument used by fans of other teams that have disparaged Brady for his entire career - by referring to him as a game manager in a dink and dunk passing offense - and that later on his numbers improved strictly because of having the benefit of quality receivers such as Moss, Welker and Gronkowski.

Agree on every point. I don't think it's a fait accompli that he breaks the record but, if he does, "Good on him" as my Aussie friends would say. I don't like it when folks denigrate Brady's accomplishments and I don't denigrate the accomplishments of others. The bottom line is that, record or not, I would bet the farm that Peyton isn't lifting the Lombardi in February...that record has been a jinx for 52 years and Peyton will have to win three cold weather games to get the bling if he sets it!

And, he should have said "couldn't care less," which is the correct usage when one is trying to communicate disinterest or disdain (it's a common mistake, though). Freud would have a field day with the chosen usage, as the OP clearly cares a lot and could "care less."

 

[Brady6]

Ironically this is remarkably similar to the argument used by fans of other teams that have disparaged Brady for his entire career - by referring to him as a game manager in a dink and dunk passing offense - and that later on his numbers improved strictly because of having the benefit of quality receivers such as Moss, Welker and Gronkowski.

I am not so much disparaging Manning, but you’ve highlighted what my issue is – in 2007 the receivers received so much credit for Brady’s performance yet this season plays like Decker have 4 touchdown games and get a mention at the end of an ESPN highlight.

Manning has 14 touchdowns on a pass thrown 11 yards or further down the field and 27 on a pass thrown 10 yards or fewer. Brady had 26 touchdowns on a pass thrown 11 yards or further and 24 on a pass thrown 10 yards or few during the 2007 season, Manning has a 6 to 1 ration compared to Brady’s 2007 for passes thrown behind the line of scrimmage that result in a touchdown.

Like I said in my opening sentence I am not disparaging Peyton I just find the splits to be very interesting and felt it was a worthwhile share, I enjoy understanding the how and why of the game others don’t but those who do may find some value in what I illustrated.

 

[Brady6]

That's very different than the tone of your original post and your response to my first (and accurate!) post. If you had written in that vein, I would have replied differently.

And, next time, leave out the 's when challenging facts. Any of us can be wrong at any given time.

I don’t recall using an face in any post in this thread?

 

[coolguy]

Who gives a crap?

All these will be outdated once the nfl switches to a 18 game team season..

Aaron rodgers is destined to break this record once that happens (if he can stay healthy).

 

[sb1]

I think all offensive passing records are "flawed" these days. This is a league designed for passers to put up big numbers. And that's not going to change anytime soon.

I think Manning gets the record if...ironically... the Pats are pushing the Broncos to the wire for the #1 seed and Manning doesn't sit.