Looking back on the 2011 draft...I still think it sucked

[ctpatsfan77]

He doesn't need to drop weight to move inside. That's what you don't understand. And he's played guard before. It's not like it's a new position for him.

If he was playing tackle at 350+ (and, his junior year, didn't allow a sack), why would he need to lose weight to play guard?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

With those four-year guys, you pretty much know what you're getting. But with those lottery-ticket types, you might be getting something better. Not very often, but sometimes anyway. The one quibble with that Williams pick is that it's doubtful anyone else was going to pick him, and so maybe we could have just signed him as an UDFA, but who knows -- maybe there was one more team out there. We did later find out Tennessee was interested in Cassel.

True. That said, I think they wanted MFC as an UDFA, not a draft pick.

 

[BradyManny]

You know its been a long, slow offseason when "looking back" on a draft means waiting just 3 months to make a judgement without even having seen a single player drafted even take practice reps.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

You know its been a long, slow offseason when "looking back" on a draft means waiting just 3 months to make a judgement without even having seen a single player drafted even take practice reps.

I don't think that is relevant when considering who started the thread.

 

[DaBruinz]

If he was playing tackle at 350+ (and, his junior year, didn't allow a sack), why would he need to lose weight to play guard?

I don't know.... Ask Jeffbiologist.. He's the one claiming that Cannon is fat and needs to lose 50 lbs before he'd be able to play in the NFL..

 

[patchick]

I don't know.... Ask Jeffbiologist.. He's the one claiming that Cannon is fat and needs to lose 50 lbs before he'd be able to play in the NFL..

Jeff and I seldom agree on much, but I have to say that trimming Cannon down a bit isn't a crazy idea. IIRC nobody within 30 lbs. of his weight has been an effective OL for the Pats in the BB era. And while Cannon is reportedly an excellent natural athlete, his measurables don't suggest great foot quickness or lateral movement at his current size.

(This isn't a criticism of the pick, he was a great selection at that point in the draft. But 358 isn't a number that makes me happy.)

 

[DaBruinz]

Jeff and I seldom agree on much, but I have to say that trimming Cannon down a bit isn't a crazy idea. IIRC nobody within 30 lbs. of his weight has been an effective OL for the Pats in the BB era. And while Cannon is reportedly an excellent natural athlete, his measurables don't suggest great foot quickness or lateral movement at his current size.

(This isn't a criticism of the pick, he was a great selection at that point in the draft. But 358 isn't a number that makes me happy.)

Patchick - Please don't insult yourself by putting yourself in the same group as Jeffbiologist. Jeff stated that Cannon was worthless until he lost 50 lbs.

As for "nobody within 30 lbs of that weight has been effective" that doesn't mean anything. Previously, they've never brought in someone as athletic as Cannon who weighed that much, so there is no one to actually compare Cannon to.

I mean, before Neal, no one had tried to convert a wrestler to an OG. How many QBs did the Pats try to convert to WR before Edelman?

At worst, Cannon is sporting 20% body fat. I think he's closer to only 15% from the looks of him. But let's use 20%. Do you know how hard it is to cut your body fat% from 20% to 10%? And that is what you'd be asking Cannon to do, pretty much. The first 10-15 lbs he'll probably do no sweat.. but the last 10-15 lbs?? He may not get there..

Also of note. Cannon has never had "weight issues".. What we are comfortable with and what the Pats are comfortable with are two different things.

 

[TheSolderKing]

The 350 weight needs to be weighed again. I am personally familiar w/ chemotherapy. Cannon had to of dropped 15-20 during his treatments. 1 can barely consume food and daily life was awful for 3 days plus. I had to be admitted to hospital for IV saline after the infusion (3 days in) b/c I could not consume anything. The kid had to of lost considerable weight. I realize ppl handle it differently... I do not see him at 350 now.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Patchick - Please don't insult yourself by putting yourself in the same group as Jeffbiologist. Jeff stated that Cannon was worthless until he lost 50 lbs.

As for "nobody within 30 lbs of that weight has been effective" that doesn't mean anything. Previously, they've never brought in someone as athletic as Cannon who weighed that much, so there is no one to actually compare Cannon to.

I mean, before Neal, no one had tried to convert a wrestler to an OG. How many QBs did the Pats try to convert to WR before Edelman?

At worst, Cannon is sporting 20% body fat. I think he's closer to only 15% from the looks of him. But let's use 20%. Do you know how hard it is to cut your body fat% from 20% to 10%? And that is what you'd be asking Cannon to do, pretty much. The first 10-15 lbs he'll probably do no sweat.. but the last 10-15 lbs?? He may not get there..

Also of note. Cannon has never had "weight issues".. What we are comfortable with and what the Pats are comfortable with are two different things.

Cannon definitely seems to have a few extra pounds on him, I wouldnt attempt to guess a bodyfat percentage, one problem with that is one never knows how much of the person's fat is in their abdominal cavity, in between organs. Not having much fat there allows more room for the stomach to expand which is why eating competitions are often won by skinny people. All that being said, you don't necessarily want your football players to have too little fat, it's a contact sport, not a bodybuilding competition. Fat acts as a cushion for kinetic impact, which there's plenty of in football.

I would try a 'look and see' approach with Cannon, work him out and see what he can do and go from there, it's possible that if he loses 30lbs he'd get a nice increase in quickness, who knows? If being closer to 350lbs is his more natural weight it might be better simply going with it.

 

[Sciz]

Straight ahead for the first 20 yards, Cannon is on par with Light, Mankins, Koppen, and Kaczur. For the first 40 yards, he's on par with Light, Koppen, and Kaczur. For the vertical jump, he's an inch behind Mankins, 1.5 behind Solder, and two better than Koppen. In the broad jump, he beat Mankins, Kaczur, and Koppen. His 3 cone time beats Koppen's. The only real lacking number is his his shuttle time, and it makes sense that a 360 pound guy isn't going to change direction overly well. Still, it was on par with (299 pound) Rodney Hudson, Will Rackley, Jason Pinkston, and not too far from Willie Smith.

I think we're seeing Belichick try to make an offensive line that equals the line of old (Light Mankins Koppen Neal Kaczur) in athleticism, yet adds a lot of power. For example, I'm pretty confident that 330 pound Solder would be more athletic than 33-year-old, 305 pound Light. Vollmer should be able to get up around 340 and still be just as athletic as Kaczur. At 360, Cannon won't match Neal's athleticism, but he can get close. Add a new center (Brewster 2012!) and resign Mankins, and the line is suddenly just as athletic as the one a few years ago, but 120 pounds heavier and more powerful.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

The 350 weight needs to be weighed again. I am personally familiar w/ chemotherapy. Cannon had to of dropped 15-20 during his treatments. 1 can barely consume food and daily life was awful for 3 days plus. I had to be admitted to hospital for IV saline after the infusion (3 days in) b/c I could not consume anything. The kid had to of lost considerable weight. I realize ppl handle it differently... I do not see him at 350 now.

Apparently he dropped about 15-20 pounds before he learned that [slight paraphrase] "he had to eat even when he wasn't hungry," and has since put about half of it back on.

 

[supafly]

Straight ahead for the first 20 yards, Cannon is on par with Light, Mankins, Koppen, and Kaczur. For the first 40 yards, he's on par with Light, Koppen, and Kaczur. For the vertical jump, he's an inch behind Mankins, 1.5 behind Solder, and two better than Koppen. In the broad jump, he beat Mankins, Kaczur, and Koppen. His 3 cone time beats Koppen's. The only real lacking number is his his shuttle time, and it makes sense that a 360 pound guy isn't going to change direction overly well. Still, it was on par with (299 pound) Rodney Hudson, Will Rackley, Jason Pinkston, and not too far from Willie Smith.

I think we're seeing Belichick try to make an offensive line that equals the line of old (Light Mankins Koppen Neal Kaczur) in athleticism, yet adds a lot of power. For example, I'm pretty confident that 330 pound Solder would be more athletic than 33-year-old, 305 pound Light. Vollmer should be able to get up around 340 and still be just as athletic as Kaczur. At 360, Cannon won't match Neal's athleticism, but he can get close. Add a new center (Brewster 2012!) and resign Mankins, and the line is suddenly just as athletic as the one a few years ago, but 120 pounds heavier and more powerful.

Great post, Sciz. Nice breakdown, and I agree with this thinking. It is certainly something to get excited about, that's for sure.

There's no doubt to me (although I am terribly far from being an OL expert), that after watching many Ohio St games, Brewster is the real deal, and will easily be many posters' binky when it comes to the draft next yr. The thought of a younger, stronger, more athletic, and superbly talented upgrade at the center position is one that would make a heck of an impact.

One thing the BIG TEN conference can certainly produce at, are the 5 positions at offensive line.

 

[Don Kipines]

Jeff and I seldom agree on much, but I have to say that trimming Cannon down a bit isn't a crazy idea. IIRC nobody within 30 lbs. of his weight has been an effective OL for the Pats in the BB era. And while Cannon is reportedly an excellent natural athlete, his measurables don't suggest great foot quickness or lateral movement at his current size.

(This isn't a criticism of the pick, he was a great selection at that point in the draft. But 358 isn't a number that makes me happy.)

Ryan O'Callaghan played pretty well when he was healthy, especially his rookie year. And he's almost as big as Cannon, weightwise. The Chiefs list him at 330 now, but he was bigger than that when he was drafted, I believe.

 

[patchick]

Straight ahead for the first 20 yards, Cannon is on par with Light, Mankins, Koppen, and Kaczur. For the first 40 yards, he's on par with Light, Koppen, and Kaczur. For the vertical jump, he's an inch behind Mankins, 1.5 behind Solder, and two better than Koppen. In the broad jump, he beat Mankins, Kaczur, and Koppen. His 3 cone time beats Koppen's. The only real lacking number is his his shuttle time, and it makes sense that a 360 pound guy isn't going to change direction overly well.

That's one take on the numbers. Another is that Cannon's cone and shuttle times are by far the slowest of any OT or OG Belichick has ever drafted, and his 10-yard split (IMO more relevant for an OT than 40 or 20) is slower than anybody but O'Callaghan.

Again, I really like the pick at that point in the draft, and I think Cannon has a lot of talent. But he's a very different style of OL than the Pats have targeted/succeeded with in the past. The Pats have been fielding an exceptionally quick, athletic line, and their biggest draft successes of recent years (Vollmer, Mankins, Kaczur) exemplify that. Their experiments off that track, meanwhile (Ohrnberger, O'Callaghan) have been less encouraging.

Very much on the plus side, of course, are Cannon's successful experience as a college LT and his jump scores indicating explosion off the line. (The Patriots OL is like an Olympic high-jump squad, ultra-heavyweight division.) So I'm optimistic, but nervous.

 

[DaBruinz]

The 350 weight needs to be weighed again. I am personally familiar w/ chemotherapy. Cannon had to of dropped 15-20 during his treatments. 1 can barely consume food and daily life was awful for 3 days plus. I had to be admitted to hospital for IV saline after the infusion (3 days in) b/c I could not consume anything. The kid had to of lost considerable weight. I realize ppl handle it differently... I do not see him at 350 now.

Everyone reacts to Chemo differently. If you had read any of the interviews with Cannon, the weight loss he suffered was marginal at best. He wasn't affected by nausea at all. He was out swimming and doing training the same days he took his chemo..

 

[Sciz]

That's one take on the numbers. Another is that Cannon's cone and shuttle times are by far the slowest of any OT or OG Belichick has ever drafted, and his 10-yard split (IMO more relevant for an OT than 40 or 20) is slower than anybody but O'Callaghan.

10-yard splits per NFLDraftScout:

Cannon: 1.84
Light: 1.85
Kaczur: 1.85
Mankins: 1.85
Dan Connolly: 1.83
Dan Koppen: 1.80

I realize that velocity over 10 yards isn't linear, but if we simplify it so it is, then Cannon comes in about 8 inches behind 2003 Koppen over a 10-yard (360-inch) sprint. Basically, his straight line speed doesn't worry me at all. Change of direction speed does a little, but that can be schemed around. And he brings a heck of a lot more power than anybody else at the position.

 

[DaBruinz]

That's one take on the numbers. Another is that Cannon's cone and shuttle times are by far the slowest of any OT or OG Belichick has ever drafted, and his 10-yard split (IMO more relevant for an OT than 40 or 20) is slower than anybody but O'Callaghan.

Cannon's
10 split: 1.84
3 cone: 8.07
Shuttle: 4.97

Matt Light's :
10 split:1.85
3 cone: 7.3
Shuttle: 4.49

Dan Koppen:
10 split:1.80
3 cone: 8.26
Shuttle: 4.56

Logan Mankins:
10 split:1.85
3 cone: 7.54
Shuttle: 4.45

O'Callaghan:
10 split:1.88
3 cone: 7.97
Shuttle:4.83

Vollmer:
10 Spilt: 1.77
3 Cone: 7.51
Shuttle: 4.50


Not sure how you can take issue with Cannon's 10 yard split when only Vollmer and Koppen were faster. Koppen's 3 cone was actually WORSE than Cannon's. Only the shuttle was Cannon the worst.

 

[jsull87]

I have found some really good videos of Cannon by just looking up Andy Dalton. I can see why we drafted him and i agree as well he will be a guard. The guy is an absolute beast in the running game, all i saw was when there was a run he absolutely dominated whoever he was blocking. As far as having the speed to pull e.t.c i guess we will find that out in time

 

[patchick]

Not sure how you can take issue with Cannon's 10 yard split when only Vollmer and Koppen were faster. Koppen's 3 cone was actually WORSE than Cannon's. Only the shuttle was Cannon the worst.

I was totally wrong on the split, don't know what I was looking at, sorry.

But for the cone and shuttle, I had specified OT & OG for a reason. It seems to me that the Patriots have drafted the center position rather differently from guard and tackle, with much less emphasis on explosive athleticism. Koppen, Elgin, Ohrnberger (who at the time was reported to have been drafted to play C) and Larsen have different athletic profiles than the other drafted linemen. :confused2:

 

[Snake Eyes]

I was totally wrong on the split, don't know what I was looking at, sorry.

But for the cone and shuttle, I had specified OT & OG for a reason. It seems to me that the Patriots have drafted the center position rather differently from guard and tackle, with much less emphasis on explosive athleticism. Koppen, Elgin, Ohrnberger (who at the time was reported to have been drafted to play C) and Larsen have different athletic profiles than the other drafted linemen. :confused2:

Do you think BB grabbed Cannon to groom for Center?