Koppen May Not Make The Cut

[DaBruinz]

I was stating that he played next to him for most of his career. 99 out of 120 is most. I never claimed Neal wasn't often banged up. That was a lot of words to say very little.

Umm.. Neal only lined up next to Koppen in 78 games. Not sure where you got 99, but Neal only played in 86 games in his career.

 

[DaBruinz]

So he played with mankins on his left for 89 games and Neal / Woody on his right for 99 games. The point was he had talent around him and your own stats show this. Let's not argue phrasing of the question and stick to the underlying fact that he had consistently good talent along side him.

Sorry, Jsull, but Slappy didn't say good talent. Slappy said superstars and there is a huge difference between a superstar guard like Hutchinson or Mankins and a good guard like Neal, or an above average guard like Andruzzi, or Woody. :

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...0873-koppen-may-not-make-cut.html#post3090455

Koppen was never great to begin with. He's been surrounded by superstars for most of his career.

Everyone has basically pointed out that Koppen is better than Slappy was giving him credit for. So, I'm sorry, but phrasing is exactly what needs to be argued.

 

[goheels22002]

Actually, Dan Koppen wasn't even drafted until the 2003 season, so he wasn't the starting center on any team that went to 3 SB's in 4 years. He does have 2 rings though. He actually wasn't even the starting center during his rookie year either (2003), although he did start the SB that year at the position due to an injury or two on the line, which caused starting center Woody to move to guard.

In the 2004 season, he became the Pats starting center permanently.

I agree with your general overall thoughts though.

In 2007, Koppen missed one game due to a foot injury, but managed to start the other 15 games, not allowing a single sack and helping the Patriots to get to Super Bowl XLII. He was selected as a starter to the 2008 Pro Bowl, his first appearance in the game.

Koppen proceeded to start all 16 games for the next two seasons. In the 2009 season he was a member of an offensive line that allowed the fewest sacks (18) by a Patriots offensive line since the NFL moved to a 16-game schedule in 1978.

Here's an awesome quote by Belichick regarding his play:


“ Seeing the front seven, even sometimes the secondary rotation on a particular play...he does that very well and is on the same page with our quarterback...He's really good at that, probably as good as anybody I've ever coached."

Koppen took over as starting center his rookie year when Woody moved to guard in like week 3 or 4. Koppen started on the '04, '05 and '07 SB teams. He would have started last year but went down in week 2.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

He actually wasn't even the starting center during his rookie year either (2003), although he did start the SB that year at the position due to an injury or two on the line, which caused starting center Woody to move to guard.

In the 2004 season, he became the Pats starting center permanently.

I agree with your general overall thoughts though.

In 2007, Koppen missed one game due to a foot injury, but managed to start the other 15 games, not allowing a single sack and helping the Patriots to get to Super Bowl XLII. He was selected as a starter to the 2008 Pro Bowl, his first appearance in the game.

Many here also talk of Koppen's perceived notion that he has "been in decline for many years." I don't know when his decline started to be honest with you, but in 2007 he didn't allow a single sack. In 2008 he went to the Pro-Bowl. In 2009 he was part of the line that allowed a total of 18 overall sacks, which set the modern day 16 game season record for a franchise. In 2011 he didn't play, so I'm guessing his "decline" started in the 2010 season and has been continuing into the current TC.

It all depends where Belichick sees the bigger weakness (G vs. C), and IF he still sees Koppen as having enough positives to contribute there or not.

If Connelly is being planned as playing guard for approx. 1/2 the year until Mankins gets back, then Koppen may still somehow have the upper hand over McDonald and Wendell--despite his poorer performances lately in TC.

Many of us (including myself) would much rather see McDonald or Wendell play center, thus allowing Connelly to maximize his strength at the guard position. I don't know how Belichick sees Koppen vs. McDonald/Wendell though, and if Belichick would rather use Connelly at center or guard. Coming up with the best possible combination will certainly be one of the deciding factors.

Koppen needs to show improvement to keep his place/earn a spot on this team. Whether or not he can do that is the obvious question, and it isn't looking too good right now, at least if you go by the Greg Bedard reports.

Koppen started 15 games at center his rookie.

2010 was the year there was sharp decline in his play in my view. He's now two years older and coming off an injury. He's had a good career and won some rings, I just don't think there's much of anything left. Strength was never his strong suit but now it sounds like he's just getting tossed around like a rag doll in training camp.

You're singing a very different tune than you were recently regarding Koppen and McDonald.

 

[supafly]

Koppen took over as starting center his rookie year when Woody moved to guard in like week 3 or 4. Koppen started on the '04, '05 and '07 SB teams. He would have started last year but went down in week 2.

Okay..except there wasn't any "2005" SB team.

They won in 2001, 2003 and 2004. 3x in 4 yrs.

You may have meant that he played in 3 SB's (if you are including the 2007 season), in 5 yrs. It'd have been 2003, 2004, and 2007.

At any rate, I like what you said and we're in agreement somewhat. That's why I listed the telling Belichick quote and went over Koppen's accomplishments.

 

[supafly]

Koppen started 15 games at center his rookie.

2010 was the year there was sharp decline in his play in my view. He's now two years older and coming off an injury. He's had a good career and won some rings, I just don't think there's much of anything left. Strength was never his strong suit but now it sounds like he's just getting tossed around like a rag doll in training camp.

You're singing a very different tune than you were recently regarding Koppen and McDonald.

I'm "singing a different tune?" If Koppen isn't going to make it, WHO would you rather see at center besides Wendell/McDonald then? Please tell me.

Why, b/c I stated that I felt Koppen was a lock in the offseason? He should have been. No one could have predicted his losing 9 straight one-on-one battles.

If I'm still listing many reasons why Koppen could win his job still, and telling everyone his accomplishments, then HOW am I "singing a different tune?"

You like to start sh!t, no doubt about that.

 

[supafly]

I was stating that he played next to him for most of his career. 99 out of 120 is most. I never claimed Neal wasn't often banged up. That was a lot of words to say very little.

Again, you aren't close to being correct with how much they played together, but whatever.

If my breakdown of years (2007--2010) was too much for you then I suggest you go back to school, or develop patience to be able to read several paragraphs at a time.

From..now..on..I...talk...like...this..for..you..caveman...style.

 

[bagwell368]

I'm "singing a different tune?" If Koppen isn't going to make it, WHO would you rather see at center besides Wendell/McDonald then? Please tell me.

Why, b/c I stated that I felt Koppen was a lock in the offseason? He should have been. No one could have predicted his losing 9 straight one-on-one battles.

If I'm still listing many reasons why Koppen could win his job still, and telling everyone his accomplishments, then HOW and I "singing a different tune?"

You like to start sh!t, no doubt about that.

Koppen started having problems w/ big bull rush NT/DT's in '09. He's small, not overly strong, and his injury last year was quite serious for an OL. His decline has been masked somewhat by being part of an elite line.

His pros are that he's a real Center - not some converted G - with a real connection to Brady. He can't play any othr position (a decided negative to BB).

There were a lot of good G's in the draft from Round 3 on last year, and not taking advantage of that was my only beef with BB's choices.

We should go with Connolly and either McDonald or Wendell as part of the 9 OL's we will go with. I can't imagine we burn a slot on Koppen, unless they renegotiate him to the vet min AND don't trust both McDonald and Wendell by the end of camp.

 

[supafly]

Koppen started having problems w/ big bull rush NT/DT's in '09. He's small, not overly strong, and his injury last year was quite serious for an OL. His decline has been masked somewhat by being part of an elite line.

His pros are that he's a real Center - not some converted G - with a real connection to Brady. He can't play any othr position (a decided negative to BB).

There were a lot of good G's in the draft from Round 3 on last year, and not taking advantage of that was my only beef with BB's choices.

We should go with Connolly and either McDonald or Wendell as part of the 9 OL's we will go with. I can't imagine we burn a slot on Koppen, unless they renegotiate him to the vet min AND don't trust both McDonald and Wendell by the end of camp.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying regarding his talents. Good post.

The problem is that we're assuming that BB is against using him due to his lack of versatility, (which is a very understandable and common sense assumption that I agree with) but...we don't know how much Belichick views his chemistry with Brady and his ability to play center over McDonald and Wendell yet.

You are likely right, and that he won't make the team at this point, which is far from what I assumed with Koppen in the offseason. It will obviously all depend upon what Belichick feels, but if the past has anything to do with it, Koppen probably won't be here.

It also has a lot to do with how much 'better' Wendell/McDonald can be too vs. Koppen's abilities.

 

[Claremonster]

I like him for what he did as a Pat. It wouldn't hurt my feelings however if he was cut for an upgrade.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Many of us (including myself) would much rather see McDonald or Wendell play center, thus allowing Connelly to maximize his strength at the guard position. I don't know how Belichick sees Koppen vs. McDonald/Wendell though, and if Belichick would rather use Connelly at center or guard. Coming up with the best possible combination will certainly be one of the deciding factors.

Koppen needs to show improvement to keep his place/earn a spot on this team. Whether or not he can do that is the obvious question, and it isn't looking too good right now, at least if you go by the Greg Bedard reports.

I'm "singing a different tune?" If Koppen isn't going to make it, WHO would you rather see at center besides Wendell/McDonald then? Please tell me.

Why, b/c I stated that I felt Koppen was a lock in the offseason? He should have been. No one could have predicted his losing 9 straight one-on-one battles.

You like to start sh!t, no doubt about that.

Well, I don't know, how about Dan Connolly at Center?

I don't like to start **** but I do like to point out the hypocrisy when someone talks out of both sides of their mouth. When that person shows both ignorance and arrogance when discussing the matter, it makes it a little easier to point that out.

Here are some of your quotes from the last Koppen thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...0456-center-dan-koppen-re-signed-2-years.html

Post 58: "He may "still have to earn a spot?" Really? Koppen just signed for 3 million a year. That's obviously starter money. Even if it wasn't, he certainly "doesn't have to earn a spot." He's more than safe, he's a definite lock."

Post 60: Who is going to beat him out with a 2 yr/6 million dollar pact? Nick McDonald?

Post 65: Comparing Koppen and his 10 yr tenure here to freaking Nick McDonald is hilarious. The NEP did not just give Dan Koppen that kind of money to NOT make the 53 man roster, whether you try to spin signing bonuses, average per yr--whatever. The NEP are not in the habit of throwing money down the drain.

Post 65: We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but with all due respect--you are talking out of your ass. You are claiming that the NEP just decided to give Koppen a 2 yr deal worth 6 million dollars and now he is going to have to suddenly beat out Ryan freaking Wendall and Nick McDonald for at least a backup job. That is beyond ridiculous, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Post 69: But to think that they will somehow beat Koppen out in 2012, thus sending him to the streets after the NEP just re signed him for at the very least this year, is beyond wishful thinking. It would also prove the NEP to be very poor businessmen, which they are not."



I'd call that singing a different tune. I was going to leave it be but then you had to go and accuse me of starting **** so I figured I would.

 

[supafly]

Well, I don't know, how about Dan Connolly at Center?

I don't like to start **** but I do like to point out the hypocrisy when someone talks out of both sides of their mouth. When that person shows both ignorance and arrogance when discussing the matter, it makes it a little easier to point that out.

Here are some of your quotes from the last Koppen thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...0456-center-dan-koppen-re-signed-2-years.html

Post 58: "He may "still have to earn a spot?" Really? Koppen just signed for 3 million a year. That's obviously starter money. Even if it wasn't, he certainly "doesn't have to earn a spot." He's more than safe, he's a definite lock."

Post 60: Who is going to beat him out with a 2 yr/6 million dollar pact? Nick McDonald?

Post 65: Comparing Koppen and his 10 yr tenure here to freaking Nick McDonald is hilarious. The NEP did not just give Dan Koppen that kind of money to NOT make the 53 man roster, whether you try to spin signing bonuses, average per yr--whatever. The NEP are not in the habit of throwing money down the drain.

Post 65: We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but with all due respect--you are talking out of your ass. You are claiming that the NEP just decided to give Koppen a 2 yr deal worth 6 million dollars and now he is going to have to suddenly beat out Ryan freaking Wendall and Nick McDonald for at least a backup job. That is beyond ridiculous, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Post 69: But to think that they will somehow beat Koppen out in 2012, thus sending him to the streets after the NEP just re signed him for at the very least this year, is beyond wishful thinking. It would also prove the NEP to be very poor businessmen, which they are not."



I'd call that singing a different tune. I was going to leave it be but then you had to go and accuse me of starting **** so I figured I would.

I openly admitted that I fully expected (like about 90% of the fanbase) Koppen to make the squad. Now that many of us realize that may not be the case, we have to move on with another plan. Is that too far out of the realm of possibility for you to understand?

Since I am still arguing that point despite his shortcomings, I'm not sure where you will attempt to go with this, but I have to admit I am curious.

I haven't seen you post in a thread about a single subject, then you suddenly pop up and comment on (guess) the Dan Koppen thread.

If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were Dan Connelly's mother.

Connelly may very well start at guard, due to the Logan Mankins/Brian Waters situation. Most of us realize that. It will be up to the coach to decide where to use his abilities in the best way.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

I openly admitted that I fully expected (like about 90% of the fanbase) Koppen to make the squad. Now that many of us realize that may not be the case, we have to move on with another plan. Is that too far out of the realm of possibility for you to understand?

Since I am still arguing that point despite his shortcomings, I'm not sure where you will attempt to go with this, but I have to admit I am curious.

I haven't seen you post in a thread about a single subject, then you suddenly pop up and comment on (guess) the Dan Koppen thread.

If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were Dan Connelly's mother.

Connelly may very well start at guard, due to the Logan Mankins/Brian Waters situation. Most of us realize that. It will be up to the coach to decide where to use his abilities in the best way.

Don't presume that 90% of Patriot fans shared your assessment, give them more credit than that.

Right, I think Connolly should be the starting Center so I must be his mother.

Aren't you clever. What debating skills! What humor and wit you have.

Well done, you really got me with that zinger. You should be proud.

 

[supafly]

Don't presume that 90% of Patriot fans shared your assessment, give them more credit than that.

Right, I think Connolly should be the starting Center so I must be his mother.

Aren't you clever. What debating skills! What humor and wit you have.

Well done, you really got me with that zinger. You should be proud.

Your propensity to consistently argue his cause would lead me to believe that you are indeed his mommy.

And yes, due to Koppen's history etc, the majority certainly expected him to make the roster. It may not have been my stated "90%," but it was pretty high.

Like I said before, just because the situation has changed does not mean that I am "talking out of both sides of my mouth."

I already admitted my mistake in assuming that he was going to make the roster, but in my defense, so did most. Furthermore, it isn't over yet anyway.

P.S.--For the record, I am not on here to "debate." There are much better forums to "debate" anything. It isn't a legal forum. I'm here, like most, to talk football. Since everyone has an opinion, there are rarely right and wrongs, with the exception of people having incorrect stats etc. If you would like me to once again, admit that I was wrong in assuming that Koppen would make the team when signed 4 months ago, I would be happy to do it. You seem to have a hard time keeping up, as you pop in and out a few times a year and think that you can pick right back up with the discussion from 4-5 months ago. We've been talking about it daily for awhile now.

 

[goheels22002]

Okay..except there wasn't any "2005" SB team.

They won in 2001, 2003 and 2004. 3x in 4 yrs.

You may have meant that he played in 3 SB's (if you are including the 2007 season), in 5 yrs. It'd have been 2003, 2004, and 2007.

At any rate, I like what you said and we're in agreement somewhat. That's why I listed the telling Belichick quote and went over Koppen's accomplishments.

The Super Bowls were actually played in '02. '04, '05, '08 and '12, - I get it. Koppen started three Super Bowls in five years, not four. Three more than me.

I agree with your post about Koppen being able to do the play-calling but not the blocking. The TC videos are discouraging - he's getting pushed around and winds up on the ground a lot. Getting old sucks.