Josh McDaniels Q&A, 11/4

[spacecrime]

Which is worse a man crush or people like you who want to blame him for everything from every Patriots loss to tempting Eve from eating from the tree of knowledge. Which is worse, people who think McDaniels is doing a really good job or you who blame him for the sloppiness of the David Thomas penality yet not give him credit that the Pats are on pace to be one of the least penalized teams of the last 30 years event though you say penalties are the Coordinator are responsible for mental mistakes like penalties.

You are definitely not one to criticize people with your double standards when reviewing McDaniels and your blind hatred. I know I may not be always the most objective guy when it comes to this guy, but you of all people shouldn't be criticizing the McDaniels fans. Your blind hatred and lack of objectivity with the guy is only one step below NEM.

It isn't blind hatred. It is an objective analysis.

No one is blaming him for every Patriots loss. Of our last four losses, he takes 'credit' the superbowl and the Colts. The Dolphins and the CHargers are on the defense.

You'll have to show me the post where someone blamed Thomas's penalty on him. You can approve of JM if you want, but kindly don't make stuff up.

Why do you give JM credit for the Patriots not getting penalized? How does his game planning help with false starts, defensive holding, and illegal contact, our three most common penalties, I believe.

You keep saying blind hatred. Over and over. And lack of objectivity. Why is it objective to support his playcalling and in-game adjustments and blind hatred to not support the same?

If you really think JM is good at in-game adjustments, then show me some he made to slow the Giants pass rush.

If you think his playcalling is so great, tell me why he didn't go after the Colts depleted CBs.

Show why he is great, rather than lamely saying, "If you don't agree with me you are unobjective." And that blind hate stuff, too. That's just too weird.

I read his press conference. He said he didn't go down field because Cassel didn't have time in the pocket. I dispute that. Cassel didn't have time every play, but no QB does. But he had time on many plays, and a decent OC would know about rollouts, which would easily give him time for a shot downfield.

There is simply no excuse for not throwing the ball downfield more than once against a weak backfield.

Once. They threw deep once.

That isn't blind hatred, that is observation.

 

[spacecrime]

Come on. I am glad he didn't keep Weis' ability to string together five or six 3 and outs in a game like Weis did prior to 2004. Isn't that a good thing he left out of Weis' playbook. I am glad he gave up on Weis' love of the FB draw. Or his over reliance on trick plays. Weis was not this perfect OC that people like to remember. Prior to 2004, Weis had a lot of critics and somewhat justified in a lot of cases too. Just go back and look at Weis' third down success rate in 2003 vs. any year with McDaniels as OC including this year. Even without Brady, the Pats have a 44% success rate on third downs this year (even with the "garbage" receivers in 2006, the Pats had a 42% third down success rate) while Weis had a 37% success rate in 2003.

I don't think you understand what a playbook is if you think it contains things like 3 and outs. Weiss was a genius at using plays to set up other plays.

There were things about Weiss I didn't like, but overall I thought he was a great coordination. The only thing I didn't like were those damn draw plays, and McDaniels runs them more than Weiss ever did. But then, Weiss used them to set up other plays. Short-short-short DEEP. JM only has the short part down.

Interesting stats you provide to show JM > CW.

How about this stat:

JM is in his fourth year as OC. We have won no superbowls.

In the last four years of CW's OC-dom, we won 3 superbowls.

I do not see how ANYONE can say that JM is even close to the OC that CW was.

I miss Charlie Weiss

At this point, I'd take Charlie Casserly over Josh McDaniels.

 

[Rob0729]

It isn't blind hatred. It is an objective analysis.

No one is blaming him for every Patriots loss. Of our last four losses, he takes 'credit' the superbowl and the Colts. The Dolphins and the CHargers are on the defense.

You'll have to show me the post where someone blamed Thomas's penalty on him. You can approve of JM if you want, but kindly don't make stuff up.

Why do you give JM credit for the Patriots not getting penalized? How does his game planning help with false starts, defensive holding, and illegal contact, our three most common penalties, I believe.

You keep saying blind hatred. Over and over. And lack of objectivity. Why is it objective to support his playcalling and in-game adjustments and blind hatred to not support the same?

If you really think JM is good at in-game adjustments, then show me some he made to slow the Giants pass rush.

If you think his playcalling is so great, tell me why he didn't go after the Colts depleted CBs.

Show why he is great, rather than lamely saying, "If you don't agree with me you are unobjective." And that blind hate stuff, too. That's just too weird.

I read his press conference. He said he didn't go down field because Cassel didn't have time in the pocket. I dispute that. Cassel didn't have time every play, but no QB does. But he had time on many plays, and a decent OC would know about rollouts, which would easily give him time for a shot downfield.

There is simply no excuse for not throwing the ball downfield more than once against a weak backfield.

Once. They threw deep once.

That isn't blind hatred, that is observation.

I never said that McDaniels gets credit for the mental mistakes or lack there of. Maverick has been blaming McDaniels for Gaffney's drop pass and Thomas' roughing the pass penalty. Maverick claims that it is his fault for the "sloppy play". It is the coordinator's responsibility to make sure those don't happen. Luckily the Pats are a disciplined team dispite him and eventhough it his responsibility, the team is on pace for a near record for the fewest amount of penalties. But when those penalties do infrequent do arise, Maverick points out they are clearly McDaniels fault. Sorry what you are doing and what Maverick does is two completely different things.

I keep saying blind hatred over and over again because I am pointing out Maverick's lack of objectivity, not mine. Maverick has started close to half dozen threads this week blaming McDaniels for virtually everything that went wrong with the offense the other night including Gaffney's dropped ball and Thomas' personal foul. How is that objective.

McDaniels didn't have a good game in the Super Bowl, but it wasn't for a lack of trying. He tried virtually everything in the Patriots' arsenal, but the Giants were batting down balls and stuffing players behind the line on quick screens as well as deep passes.

You obviously don't know the history of the argument and the ludicrious arguments that Maverick has made the last few days to bash McDaniels irrationally.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think you understand what a playbook is if you think it contains things like 3 and outs. Weiss was a genius at using plays to set up other plays.

There were things about Weiss I didn't like, but overall I thought he was a great coordination. The only thing I didn't like were those damn draw plays, and McDaniels runs them more than Weiss ever did. But then, Weiss used them to set up other plays. Short-short-short DEEP. JM only has the short part down.

Interesting stats you provide to show JM > CW.

How about this stat:

JM is in his fourth year as OC. We have won no superbowls.

In the last four years of CW's OC-dom, we won 3 superbowls.

I do not see how ANYONE can say that JM is even close to the OC that CW was.

I miss Charlie Weiss

At this point, I'd take Charlie Casserly over Josh McDaniels.

Let's follow that logic and apply it:

Tom Brady isn't as good in the past 4 years as he was the first 4
Randy Moss isn't as good as Deion Branch
Wes Welker isn't as good as Bethel Johnson


Great analysis on your part.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't think you understand what a playbook is if you think it contains things like 3 and outs. Weiss was a genius at using plays to set up other plays.

There were things about Weiss I didn't like, but overall I thought he was a great coordination. The only thing I didn't like were those damn draw plays, and McDaniels runs them more than Weiss ever did. But then, Weiss used them to set up other plays. Short-short-short DEEP. JM only has the short part down.

Interesting stats you provide to show JM > CW.

How about this stat:

JM is in his fourth year as OC. We have won no superbowls.

In the last four years of CW's OC-dom, we won 3 superbowls.

I do not see how ANYONE can say that JM is even close to the OC that CW was.

I miss Charlie Weiss

At this point, I'd take Charlie Casserly over Josh McDaniels.

Charlie Weis doesn't come close to the Coordinator people have made the legend of Weis to be. Weis was a good Coordinator for most of his years, but only a great Coordinator in 2004.

The McDaniels' offense is more successful this year than in 2003 with Brady and Weis. People forget that the Pats had four games that year where the Pats went without an offensive TD. The pats only averaged 21.8 PPG (that is only 1.4 more PPG than this year with Cassel running the offense and that includes 5 defensive TDs). They had ten games where the Pats scored 23 or less points and that included:

-Zero points vs. the Bills week #1

-23 points that included an a Samuel INT for a TD (making 17 offensive points) in week #3

-17 Points vs. the Redskins in week #4

-17 Points (only 10 offensive points) vs. the Giants where the Pats punted 8 times, had 5 three and outs, one 4 play drive, and two 5 play drives

- 19 Points vs the Dolphins with 5 three and outs

- 9 Points vs. the Browns

- 12 Points vs. the Cowboys with 5 three and outs and one four and out and 8 punts in total

- 12 points vs. Miami with seven three and outs and 11 punts.

- 21 points vs. the Jets (only 14 on offense with McGinest returning one for a TD) with six punts, one five play drive lost on downs, and an INT on ten possessions. And Pennington coughed the ball up 5 times in INTs to give good field position.

So let's hold back on the Weis is a genius talk. All of McDaniels' offenses have out performed Weis' 2003 offense and Weis had the benefit of arguably the best Patriots defense of all time that lead the league in turnovers and fewest points allowed. Weis was not a genius in 2003 and the defense carried the offense into the Super Bowl.

BTW, how can you talk about my objectivity when you say Charlie Casserly with no coaching experience is a better option than McDaniels.

 

[Rob0729]

BTW, it is ironic that people were biatching about McDaniels being too in love with the deep pass last year and now complaining that he doesn't throw the ball deep.

 

[Deus Irae]

BTW, it is ironic that people were biatching about McDaniels being too in love with the deep pass last year and now complaining that he doesn't throw the ball deep.

And the claim, of course, is that he doesn't adjust. You've gotta love the logic.

 

[spacecrime]

And the claim, of course, is that he doesn't adjust. You've gotta love the logic.

Do you know what an in-game adjsutment is? It is when something isn't working, and you change the game plan, change the plays or sequence of plays so that you can counter what is happening.

Your posts in the past (and robo's too) have been very knowledgable, so I don't know why you cannot understand this point, but your post and robl's just prior to this one make no sense unless you think making adjustments is something you do year to year.

I'm sure McDaniels changes his game plan not only year to year, but game to game.

The problem is that he doesn't make in-game (second half, etc) adjustments to compensate, as shown by the superbowl, and that his game plan totally failed to exploit the Colts biggest weakness (depleted and substandard secondary) and failed to capitalize on our big Oline vs their light but fast Dline, as show by tryin to outrun rather than outpower them on the 2-point conversion.

Do you really not understand this the way the last two posts make it seem, or are you just goofing around. I was being serious, but perhaps you aren't?

 

[Rob0729]

Do you know what an in-game adjsutment is? It is when something isn't working, and you change the game plan, change the plays or sequence of plays so that you can counter what is happening.

Your posts in the past (and robo's too) have been very knowledgable, so I don't know why you cannot understand this point, but your post and robl's just prior to this one make no sense unless you think making adjustments is something you do year to year.

I'm sure McDaniels changes his game plan not only year to year, but game to game.

The problem is that he doesn't make in-game (second half, etc) adjustments to compensate, as shown by the superbowl, and that his game plan totally failed to exploit the Colts biggest weakness (depleted and substandard secondary) and failed to capitalize on our big Oline vs their light but fast Dline, as show by tryin to outrun rather than outpower them on the 2-point conversion.

Do you really not understand this the way the last two posts make it seem, or are you just goofing around. I was being serious, but perhaps you aren't?

That is BS. Of course McDaniels makes in game adjustments. Why do you think Moss had no catches in the first half and six in the second. How do you think the Pats beat the Chargers in the AFC Championship game last year when Brady and the offense basically had the ball for one drive almost the entire 4th quarter.

The Pats did exploit the Colts weakness Sunday night too. They were playing two safeties deep most of the night to take away the deep pass. So McDaniels exploited the short and intermediate stuff. The Pats scored on all but two drives and had fours successive scoring drives of 13-15 plays each. Again, look back at the games I posted for Weis in 2003 and tell me that he had that type of success.

What you and others don't understand is that Dungy knew his CBs were a weakness and took steps to shure up that weakness by keeping the safeties deep to double Moss which actually made the running game and short passing game their biggest weakness. Their biggest weakness in that game was not their CBs because Dungy sacrificed other parts of his defensive game to make sure they weren't.

 

[Deus Irae]

Do you know what an in-game adjsutment is? It is when something isn't working, and you change the game plan, change the plays or sequence of plays so that you can counter what is happening.

Yes, I do know. I was making a general point about the silliness of your argument.

Your posts in the past (and robo's too) have been very knowledgable, so I don't know why you cannot understand this point, but your post and robl's just prior to this one make no sense unless you think making adjustments is something you do year to year.

I'm sure McDaniels changes his game plan not only year to year, but game to game.

When a poster you find to be generally knowledgeable and you yourself are posting something diametrically opposed to what he's saying, that should spur you to double check your train of thought. It doesn't mean you should automatically decide to concede your point, but it should make you at least check your facts. Hell, I even posted some links about the Super Bowl where others pointed out the use of screens by the Patriots, yet you haven't admitted you were wrong about your assertion that the Patriots weren't using them, or even conceded the possibility of you having made an error.

The problem is that he doesn't make in-game (second half, etc) adjustments to compensate, as shown by the superbowl, and that his game plan totally failed to exploit the Colts biggest weakness (depleted and substandard secondary) and failed to capitalize on our big Oline vs their light but fast Dline, as show by tryin to outrun rather than outpower them on the 2-point conversion.

Do you really not understand this the way the last two posts make it seem, or are you just goofing around. I was being serious, but perhaps you aren't?

This isn't a problem, because you're simply wrong. Using the Colts game is a perfect example of you acting as if you know more than the O.C. when you are clearly wrong, given what both McDaniels AND Moss have said about it. In fact, Madden and Michaels also made a point of pointing out that the Colts safeties were playing deep to defend the long pass.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

It's pretty obvious that space isn't really into objective analysis after this loss. He's into irrational frustration because we lost to the @#&%##&@*%@# Colts on the road in a game we appeared to have in hand under our Brady replacement QB in a season when they are struggling despite still having Manning under center. Frustration is justifiable. Irrationality never is.

I can point directly to at least 2-3 reasons (failure to execute or mental mistakes or in hindsight bad decisions) why we lost that game that have absolutely nothing to do with the game plan or the OC. Had we won 22-18 or 26-18 would you have still been trashing the OC? Because that's what the game plan and his play calling should have yielded had those 2-3 miscues not occurred. Of course if not for a rookie LCB's inexperience and some supposedly rag legged PK's performance the score to beat might have remained 7 too in part due to our offensive game plan limiting Manning's opportunities on offense.

PS - there is not magic bullit adjustment any OC can make in game to counter his OL getting physically manhandled by 4 and 5 man rushes after his starting RG and dedicated blocking TE leave the game. It's been documented ad nauseum that the Patriots ran every play in their arsenal designed to counter the rush or blitz (and the Giants blitzed less than 30% in that game) but an exceptional Giants DL playing their best game of the season countered their counters... The Patriots essentially had two shots at scoring against that defense all evening - in the first drive before Neal was lost and in the last drive when the Giants DL was gassed. They scored on both of those drives. They lost that game because our OL was overmatched, our pro bowl LCB couldn't catch a cold, our DL couldn't get a grip on a desperately determined scrambling QB and they rolled the dice on a blitz in the closing minute of that game and came up craps.

BTW turns out for all it's warts the NFC team they lost to was no sixth seed flash in the pan, either...

OC's are the whipping boys of fanboy nation who will always believe it coulda, woulda, shoulda been better... Charlie got whipped pretty good around here for 5 seasons even as the team won 3 rings. Easier in theory to rationalze replacing that guy following any loss than a big name HC or star position player.

 

[NYCPatsFan]

To all you experienced posters who posted in the last two pages, sorry for this mild interruption in the form of a congratulatory message:

this is a great exhibition of arguments and opinions with the right degree of annoyance that makes it a pleasure to read all points of view. Nice to see none of you go overboard with stringent criticism of others irrespective of how you disagree with their points.

Awesome to have you guys duke it out. Wish every discussion is like this!

Please continue!!

 

[maverick4]

BTW, it is ironic that people were biatching about McDaniels being too in love with the deep pass last year and now complaining that he doesn't throw the ball deep.

??????
It is called situational awareness. Against a monster pass rush, you use certain runs and screens to beat the pass rush, you don't go to more shotgun to try to keep forcing the ball vertically like McDaniels did in the Superbowl. Look at the link Mo posted in the 'still mad' thread, it lists for all to see the moronic play calling that took place in the 4th quarter.

Against the Colts their 3 CB's were complete garbage, and we only went deep once.

It is not 'irony', you don't even have a command of the English language. We are talking about recognizing weaknesses and exploiting them. McDaniels is horrible at this. He basically goes into a game with 5 plays he decided he wants to do, and does it over and over regardless of whether it's working or not.


Whenever I meet McDaniels defenders I feel like I'm debating with a neo-con sheeple about politics. Just completely irrational. Somehow against a horrible secondary and with us having the best WR in the game, going short all day is a brilliant game plan.

 

[maverick4]

Yeah, his DEFENSIVE playcalling was horrendous vs. the Colts in the AFC Championships in the 2006 season. It was all McDaniels fault that the Pats gave up a 21-3 half time lead. It was all McDaniels fault that Dallas Clark ate apart the Pats defense in that game.

And yes, I know it is the McDaniels' haters mantra that Belichick forced McDaniels to make brilliant halftime adjustments against the Chargers and the

1. Again, you have no concept of what situational awareness means. Our defense was completely gassed in that 2006 game, it was obvious to everyone, and instead of trying to slow the game down, McDaniels ends up in a bunch of quick 3 and outs that barely burn any clock and put our dying defense out there over and over in the second half of that game. The guy does not understand how different units are tied together in a football game. This point as raised by multiple people back in 2006.

2. If it weren't for Troy Brown's miraculous strip in the Chargers game, we would have lost that game. I saw no 'brilliant' adjustments as you claim, I saw more of the same. Now I kind of wish Troy hadn't made that strip, so that McDaniels would have been fired after that year.

 

[Deus Irae]

1. Again, you have no concept of what situational awareness means. Our defense was completely gassed in that 2006 game, it was obvious to everyone, and instead of trying to slow the game down, McDaniels ends up in a bunch of quick 3 and outs that barely burn any clock and put our dying defense out there over and over in the second half of that game. The guy does not understand how different units are tied together in a football game. This point as raised by multiple people back in 2006.

2. If it weren't for Troy Brown's miraculous strip in the Chargers game, we would have lost that game. I saw no 'brilliant' adjustments as you claim, I saw more of the same. Now I kind of wish Troy hadn't made that strip, so that McDaniels would have been fired after that year.

The irony of you claiming that others have no situational awareness is exquisite.

 

[Rob0729]

1. Again, you have no concept of what situational awareness means. Our defense was completely gassed in that 2006 game, it was obvious to everyone, and instead of trying to slow the game down, McDaniels ends up in a bunch of quick 3 and outs that barely burn any clock and put our dying defense out there over and over in the second half of that game. The guy does not understand how different units are tied together in a football game. This point as raised by multiple people back in 2006.

2. If it weren't for Troy Brown's miraculous strip in the Chargers game, we would have lost that game. I saw no 'brilliant' adjustments as you claim, I saw more of the same. Now I kind of wish Troy hadn't made that strip, so that McDaniels would have been fired after that year.

Ummmmmm...... How did Troy Brown have a miraculous strip in a game he was inactive? It would have to be a miraculous strip for him to do it without even being suited up on the sidelines nevermind on the field. I think Brown deserves HOF consideration if he can strip the ball while not being activated. I guess since you are clueless to which game I was talking about, you shouldn't be casting stones.

Jesus, give it up. Your irrrational hatred of McDaniels has gone to NEM levels and he was baffoon when it comes to discussing McDaniels.

 

[Rob0729]

??????
It is called situational awareness. Against a monster pass rush, you use certain runs and screens to beat the pass rush, you don't go to more shotgun to try to keep forcing the ball vertically like McDaniels did in the Superbowl. Look at the link Mo posted in the 'still mad' thread, it lists for all to see the moronic play calling that took place in the 4th quarter.

Against the Colts their 3 CB's were complete garbage, and we only went deep once.

It is not 'irony', you don't even have a command of the English language. We are talking about recognizing weaknesses and exploiting them. McDaniels is horrible at this. He basically goes into a game with 5 plays he decided he wants to do, and does it over and over regardless of whether it's working or not.


Whenever I meet McDaniels defenders I feel like I'm debating with a neo-con sheeple about politics. Just completely irrational. Somehow against a horrible secondary and with us having the best WR in the game, going short all day is a brilliant game plan.

LOL! You might want to look in the mirror, Mr. "It is McDaniels' fault Dave Thomas committed the late hit and Gaffney dropped an easy TD". You might want to look up the word irrational.

There is no use arguing with you.

 

[maverick4]

At this point you are just diverting discussion towards ad hominem because you cannot debate based on the merits of argument.

Explain how it is a 'brilliant' game plan to go short all day against a horrible secondary, when we have the best deep threat in the game.

Explain how it was defensible to repeatedly go deep, even switching mostly to shot gun in the second half, on a team with a monster pass rush where the d-line wasn't even looking to play both run/pass.

Show me an example in the past 3 years where the OC made a good half-time adjustment.

Basically, he is above average in coming into a game knowing how he wants to play, but in a game setting if it isn't going to plan he is screwed.

 

[Rob0729]

At this point you are just diverting discussion towards ad hominem because you cannot debate based on the merits of argument.

Explain how it is a 'brilliant' game plan to go short all day against a horrible secondary, when we have the best deep threat in the game.

Explain how it was defensible to repeatedly go deep, even switching mostly to shot gun in the second half, on a team with a monster pass rush where the d-line wasn't even looking to play both run/pass.

Show me an example in the past 3 years where the OC made a good half-time adjustment.

Basically, he is above average in coming into a game knowing how he wants to play, but in a game setting if it isn't going to plan he is screwed.

Why bother? Would it change your mind? You hate McDaniels and blames him from everything from gameplans to adjustments to player's mental mistakes. Any proof to disprove your argument would get summarily dismissed and ridiculed.

What point is it to debate with someone who has a blind irrational opinion on someone or something and will refuse to conceed a point. That is why everyone turned on NEM when it came to McDaniels.