JETS will Pursuit Samuel HARD

[shmessy]

the fact that you don't know who a vastly underrated, small market CB is a YP, not an MP

(Your Problem, not My Problem)



those are exactly the type of signings that teams need. but, that doesn't mean that CB isn't important...it means that talent can be found in all kinds of places

EXACTLY. THAT is how the Patriots FO operates!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone was using those stats to make the case that Aasante Samuel should get Champ Bailey money. Well, those tables show that Asante Samuel isn't even in Roderick Hills league!

You just made my point.

I have every confidence that Belioli will NOT long-term overpay for Asante Samuel. $8 million for a CB who couldn't single handedly (for that money he better) stop AJ Feeley, Kyle Boller and whathisname for the Dolphins have career days this year? Who completely blew several coverages in clutch situations in BOTH playoff games this year???

Underrated players are Patriot specialties. Dan Snyder can chase the guaranteed money contract players all he wants.

 

[Metaphors]

Is he making $8 million per year?

No one is saying he isn't a good player.

Honestly, some of your folks are forgetting that there is a salary cap in the NFL. We aren't talking about trading cards here.

I understand the salary implications, but you were dismissing him as a statistical anomaly when the stats actually back up his production on the field.

And I wouldn't pay him or any other CB $8 million...

 

[shmessy]

I understand the salary implications, but you were dismissing him as a statistical anomaly when the stats actually back up his production on the field.

And I wouldn't pay him or any other CB $8 million...

Thank you. The point I am making is that throwing $8 million/year at Asante Samuel (plus God knows what in guaranteed bonus) would not be in the Patriots' interests.

He's a good player. He's not a game changer. Just ask Kyle Boller, whathisname with the Dolphins, AJ Feeley and David "No ACL" Rivers.

Garrard's a good player, but he looked like Brady in that playoff game also. In particular Mr. $8 million/year + Bonus looked horrible on that 4th and 6 completion in the first half and got abused by Matt Jones on a post TD reception.

Once again, I like Asante. I also like Deion Branch and David Givens and Ty Law.

 

[makewayhomer]

Thank you. The point I am making is that throwing $8 million/year at Asante Samuel (plus God knows what in guaranteed bonus) would not be in the Patriots' interests.

He's a good player. He's not a game changer. Just ask Kyle Boller, whathisname with the Dolphins, AJ Feeley and David "No ACL" Rivers.

Garrard's a good player, but he looked like Brady in that playoff game also. In particular Mr. $8 million/year + Bonus looked horrible on that 4th and 6 completion in the first half and got abused by Matt Jones on a post TD reception.

Once again, I like Asante. I also like Deion Branch and David Givens and Ty Law.

well you were saying before that Asante wasn't elite. that's what we were arguing against (that, and the fact that CB isn't a critical position).

Asante being worth $9m or w/e is a different question, b/c there are a zillion factors to consider.

but the fact is that his absence will hurt the Pats and greatly help the Jets

if the Pats luck out and sign the next Hood (I doubt even the Cardinals thought there were getting a Top 5 CB), then we're set, but those signings are the exception, and not the rule. the Pats batting average in impact free agents is far from 100%, though it's pretty good

 

[Metaphors]

he basically won the Eagles game for us first of all..and how many completions did he let up against Ravens? 1 or 2 to Derrick Mason. Even if he doesnt get a single tackle or an INT..doesnt mean hes not playing well..watching the game, you can see why he doesnt get thrown @ while Hobbs does.

Here is the fundamental problem...you and many others see the interceptions by Asante but seem to miss the erratic play.

If you watch the Eagles game, look about 2 steps behind every crossing route and you will see Asante. He made the pick to close out the game (on a disasterous decision by Feeley) but he hardly "won the Eagles game". In your eyes, one big play wiped out a horrible game by him.

The Ravens game was even worse. Mason is just not a good receiver and still managed 6 catches, a good number of them with Asante in coverage. Was he afraid Mason was going to beat him deep? With Boller throwing? Ravens WR only had 2 other catches in the game...and one of those was Darling's big gain when Asante went for the pick and missed. Boller didn't seem to have a problem throwing at Asante and did pretty well (actually excellent for him).

These were poor games by Asante and you can't seem to see that. No wonder you want to break the bank for him.

 

[Maroney TD]

Thank you. The point I am making is that throwing $8 million/year at Asante Samuel (plus God knows what in guaranteed bonus) would not be in the Patriots' interests.

He's a good player. He's not a game changer. Just ask Kyle Boller, whathisname with the Dolphins, AJ Feeley and David "No ACL" Rivers.

Garrard's a good player, but he looked like Brady in that playoff game also. In particular Mr. $8 million/year + Bonus looked horrible on that 4th and 6 completion in the first half and got abused by Matt Jones on a post TD reception.

Once again, I like Asante. I also like Deion Branch and David Givens and Ty Law.

Oddly enough the Patriots felt he was worth putting the franchise tag on him even though you feel he's not a game changer. I'm also sure that the 16 INT's he's had in the past two seasons (not including playoffs) were game changing.

I'm not going to act like I know a ton about defensive coverages but it seemed to me that this season other team's threw at Hobbs a lot, which could be them trying to avoid Asante. And just because Boller and Feeley had good games doesn't mean it was all Asante's fault. Its the defensive unit as a whole. Rivers didn't have a good game either time he faced the Pats so I don't know how thats a point against Asante. In River's two games this year he had 2 TDs and 4 INTS for a QB rating of 74 and 46.

 

[shmessy]

well you were saying before that Asante wasn't elite. that's what we were arguing against (that, and the fact that CB isn't a critical position).

Asante being worth $9m or w/e is a different question, b/c there are a zillion factors to consider.

but the fact is that his absence will hurt the Pats and greatly help the Jets

if the Pats luck out and sign the next Hood (I doubt even the Cardinals thought there were getting a Top 5 CB), then we're set, but those signings are the exception, and not the rule. the Pats batting average in impact free agents is far from 100%, though it's pretty good

I still don't think he is elite. I see him as a Terrell Buckley is his prime. Elite ballhawking skills, average to above average coverage skills. A B+ player.

I'd love to see him on the team. I don't want them to ruin the cap for him.

Deion Branch situation all over again. Let him go. They may pay for it in the short term, but will be far stronger in the long-term for it.

 

[Remix 6]

Oddly enough the Patriots felt he was worth putting the franchise tag on him even though you feel he's not a game changer. I'm also sure that the 16 INT's he's had in the past two seasons (not including playoffs) were game changing.

I'm not going to act like I know a ton about defensive coverages but it seemed to me that this season other team's threw at Hobbs a lot, which could be them trying to avoid Asante. And just because Boller and Feeley had good games doesn't mean it was all Asante's fault. Its the defensive unit as a whole. Rivers didn't have a good game either time he faced the Pats so I don't know how thats a point against Asante. In River's two games this year he had 2 TDs and 4 INTS for a QB rating of 74 and 46.

did they complete those crossing routes on Samuel? I didnt see em. I remember a lot of the catches were soft D or Gay who let up a good amount.

You guys all act like "oh $9mil for an elite player. Well look at it this way. You'd rather pay $8-$8.5 million for the #7 pick in draft? Didnt Peterson sign a 5 year $40.5 million deal? Thats $8.1 / year average with $17 million guaranteed. Sorry but rookies being taken that high wont accept $3 million per year. And since thats the case..how ocme i dont hear people bashing the draft pick and stop predicting who were taking at #7 if your unwilling to pay Samuel but instead..a rookie nearly as much money. Trade down? probably.

 

[shmessy]

did they complete those crossing routes on Samuel? I didnt see em. I remember a lot of the catches were soft D or Gay who let up a good amount.

You guys all act like "oh $9mil for an elite player. Well look at it this way. You'd rather pay $8-$8.5 million for the #7 pick in draft? Didnt Peterson sign a 5 year $40.5 million deal? Thats $8.1 / year average with $17 million guaranteed. Sorry but rookies being taken that high wont accept $3 million per year. And since thats the case..how ocme i dont hear people bashing the draft pick and stop predicting who were taking at #7 if your unwilling to pay Samuel but instead..a rookie nearly as much money. Trade down? probably.

#1) You're assuming we think think Asante Samuel is an "elite" player. Once again, B+....and some have already written here that I am being generous with the +.

#2) Adrian Peterson IS an elite player and (cap-wise) worth every penny of that.

#3) I'm fine with trading down. However, if there is one glaring hole on this team next year it is at ILB. We need a young beast there. A #7 pick, if he fits with BB/Pioli and they decide to allocate the cap space towards filling that gap, that would be perfect.

 

[makewayhomer]

#2) Adrian Peterson IS an elite player and worth every penny of that.

he's an injury prone player at a less valuable position. I'm very, very happy he's not on our team with that salary

 

[shmessy]

he's an injury prone player at a less valuable position. I'm very, very happy he's not on our team with that salary

But you want a B+ Terrel Buckley Ballhawk like Asante Samuel at a higher price than that?

Adrian Peterson took over several games in his rookie year this season. He averaged 5.6 ypc and missed only 2 games. (I wish Lawrence Maroney was as "injury prone" in his rookie year).

Asante Samuel had Kyle Boller, whathisname of the Dolphins and AJ Feeley make him look bad in his 5th year.

Look, it's just a difference of opinon. You evidently believe that Asante Samuel is worth $8+ million per year in cap space to the Patriots with a large guaranteed bonus. I don't.

 

[makewayhomer]

But you want a B+ Terrel Buckley Ballhawk like Asante Samuel at a higher price than that?

Adrian Peterson took over several games in his rookie year this season. He averaged 5.6 ypc and missed only 2 games. (I wish Lawrence Maroney was as "injury prone" in his rookie year).

Asante Samuel had Kyle Boller, whathisname of the Dolphins and AJ Feeley make him look bad in his 5th year.

Look, it's just a difference of opinon. You evidently believe that Asante Samuel is worth $8+ million per year in cap space to the Patriots with a large guaranteed bonus. I don't.

I don't think I said Asante was worth $8m.

I do think that if FORCED to pay ADP or Asante $8m, I would much rather pay it to Asante. it's not quite as bad as the lopsided Champ Bailey / Clinton Portis trade, but the same idea

CB's are way, way, way, way more valuable than RB's. NFL GM's agree - just look at what the top RB's make vs the top CB's

 

[Remix 6]

#1) You're assuming we think think Asante Samuel is an "elite" player. Once again, B+....and some have already written here that I am being generous with the +.

#2) Adrian Peterson IS an elite player and (cap-wise) worth every penny of that.

#3) I'm fine with trading down. However, if there is one glaring hole on this team next year it is at ILB. We need a young beast there. A #7 pick, if he fits with BB/Pioli and they decide to allocate the cap space towards filling that gap, that would be perfect.

"we think" how about so called experts, people in media, players around league, fans around league, coaches..
examples
--------
*Made several All Pro ballots
*Pro Bowler (fans and players think hes very deserving)
*Rodney Harrison called him the best corner in league
*Coach Belichick praises Samuel, franchised him and really wants him here

so based on what your thinking and what coaches/players see on game film, its different. Hard to tell what the defense is doing at times when the camera is focused on the ball.

Peterson an elite player? I think so too but it has nothing to do with him being elite. He wasnt elite until he played the season after signing a contract. That was his rookie deal, they had nothing to base him off besides his college game. And if you want, we can talk about busts like Sullivan who got paid a lot and did nothing.

Glaring need. If you take away Samuel, i think CB could be a more glaring need. If Hobbs isnt dominating #2 WRs..what makes u think he will when he lines up on the best usually on the left side of D? or Gay who i honeslty have to say had a disappointing year after 1 day being considered starter worthy to letting up quiet a bit catches and a step back everytime.

Take away Samuel and you make our defense more vulnerable.

So you tell me, pay around a million less to a rookie or just pay one of the best at his position. Patriots arent afraid to pay people who they really feel they need. Seymour, Light, Thomas, Warren all got paid big. It just happens that CB is 1 of the highest paid positions defensively now a days. Lets stop speculating and wait and see what we offer him and what he wants. You act like its a sure thing hes leaving after the SuperBowl when really..theres a good chance hes back imo.

 

[Remix 6]

But you want a B+ Terrel Buckley Ballhawk like Asante Samuel at a higher price than that?

Adrian Peterson took over several games in his rookie year this season. He averaged 5.6 ypc and missed only 2 games. (I wish Lawrence Maroney was as "injury prone" in his rookie year).

Asante Samuel had Kyle Boller, whathisname of the Dolphins and AJ Feeley make him look bad in his 5th year.

Look, it's just a difference of opinon. You evidently believe that Asante Samuel is worth $8+ million per year in cap space to the Patriots with a large guaranteed bonus. I don't.

have u watched a Patriot game this year? Feely and Boller did nothing on Samuel. Only QB i recall getting a few completions against Samuel was Peyton Manning and Garrard really.

 

[Metaphors]

have u watched a Patriot game this year? Feely and Boller did nothing on Samuel. Only QB i recall getting a few completions against Samuel was Peyton Manning and Garrard really.

Dude. If you think Feeley and Boller did nothing against Samuel, you aren't watching the games. Seriously. Even the highlight packages for those games expose Asante.

I like Asante as much as the next guy, but even his mom wouldn't talk to him after those stinkers.

Edit: To be fair, in the Eagles game he played way off the receivers all day except for the first pick...I don't know that he wasn't told to do that (anticipating the eventual crippling turnover by Feeley). No excuse for the Ravens game.

 

[shmessy]

have u watched a Patriot game this year? .

Not really, I'm pretty new to American Football. But thanks for the attitude.

 

[Pats726]

I'm sure they will. We made our bed and next year we'll have to sleep in it - hopefully with a perfect season to cuddle up to. I wish Samuel would take a hell of a lot of money but keep it reasonable and stay hear but it's not likely to happen. The Jest would have a strong secondary with Samuel, Revis, Rhodes but they'd still have a lot of issues that Samuel can't fix.

AND if they overpay for Asante..they will have LESS money to fix the problems...

 

[Remix 6]

Dude. If you think Feeley and Boller did nothing against Samuel, you aren't watching the games. Seriously. Even the highlight packages for those games expose Asante.

I like Asante as much as the next guy, but even his mom wouldn't talk to him after those stinkers.

Edit: To be fair, in the Eagles game he played way off the receivers all day except for the first pick...I don't know that he wasn't told to do that (anticipating the eventual crippling turnover by Feeley). No excuse for the Ravens game.

alright im gonna go back and see highlights. i'll tell u what i see.

here:
Eagles game
*Asante Pick 6

*Avant on left side with Harrison trailing it seems and then Sanders was over
to make stop

*Greg Lewis over Eddie Jackson

*Greg Lewis catch on right side zone. Gay had undernearth that route. Samuel had the outside and Baker seemed late coming over and then missed tackle. Judging by that, looks like Gay was supposed to gain more depth or Baker was supposed to be ready to close because they had him surrounded.

* Greg Lewis TD over middle (Randall Gay on coverage)

*LJ Smith catches pass on Rodney as they slide for ball

*Curtis catch under Hobbs who gave a huge cushion..maybe the LB was supposed to be under that.

*flea flicker in front of Hobbs on sideline

* Reggie Brown middle for TD on Gay i believe

*westbrook dump off left side

* Reggie Brown 8 yard catch in front of Samuel. you got your first

*Curtis in front of Hobbs

*pick by Asante

thats all the throws on highlights. Asante showed up 4x. 2 on INTs, 1 on allowing a catch and 1 on zone.

u said highlights so im looking.

Ravens
* Boller completes pass to Darling after running for 30 seconds. Samuel did miss a pick as he seemed to run by the ball
* Mason TD catch between Harrison and Thomas
*completion to Mason in front of Samuel who stumbled as he went to break towards Mason/the ball

okay so him overrunning a ball after 30 seconds of coverage? fixable..completion..he stumbled but that was one of the catches i remember and considering that didnt happen more than 1-2 times really.

 

[BionicPatriot]

Let them pay Samuel. Hate to lose him, ecspecialy there of all places. But take away a good front 7 and you take away some of the DB. Samuel is proven, no doubt. But he isn't fixing that defense alone.

 

[Remix 6]

Let them pay Samuel. Hate to lose him, ecspecialy there of all places. But take away a good front 7 and you take away some of the DB. Samuel is proven, no doubt. But he isn't fixing that defense alone.

and fixing the defense doesnt happen by allowing Samuel to walk either. Losing him is a downgrade. Lets try to keep the good things and simply add to it.