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Jesus Camp

Discussion in 'Religion and Lighthearted Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Jan 2, 2008.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There's a documentary called "Jesus Camp" that ran on A&E this weekend... maybe (probably) it'll run again. Here's a link, you can watch at least the first couple of segments:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94b1_dx9Q8

    I'm interested in the locals' opinions hereabouts :)

    Thanks,

    PFnV
  2. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

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    It was fine filmmaking, very effective at pushing an agenda by cherry picking the right people and situations to make it appear an entire group of people behave in exactly the same way.

    These documentaries go to the same 2 or 3 churches and focus on the same politically and sexually obsessed Pastors in order to paint all Evangelical Christians with the brush of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, and Ted Haggard.

    I dont agree with Christians who focus on politics and act like all Christians are Republicans. However, I reject this myth that this is the majority of Evangelicals. For example, I live in Kansas City, and in the first scene you hear on the radio the speaker blaring about Rebublican politics. Frankly, most Christians in KC who listen to Christian radio, listen to KLove, or one of the other Christian Contemporary music stations.

    As someone who goes to a church that has connections with New Life Church in Colorado Springs and knows first hand the quality of the people who go there, it saddens me how the obvious failings of one man is used over and over again to diminish the character of thousands of people. 2 of those people were two teenage girls who had served the Lord by going on mission trips to China and to South America to help feed and encourage those less fortunate than themselves. These were amazing kids. In fact, for all I know, they may have been 2 of the 100 or so teens that came to our church on November 4th.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVmSn_hYzHA

    whether or not they were, they were great,unselfish kids who had done more in their short lives for other people than most people do in their entire life. A few weeks ago they were shot dead at church.

    But this wasnt treated like the Mall shooting in Omaha. After all, those people were innocent. In this case, many news organizations used the event to trot out stories about a Pastor that was dismissed a year earlier by the church, the implicit insinuation that somehow New Life church deserved it because their former leader was politically incorrect, and worse yet, a "hyocrite".

    That story came and went very quickly, there were no documentaries about the 15,000 or so great people that attend New Life Church, but I suppose we will hear about the personal troubles of Ted Haggard forever. As if somehow if they focus on the man, that it will bring the church down.

    I have posted many music videos by Desperation Band, the worship leaders from New Life Church, here is one their songs, "Amazed"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGBRkx--w7I&feature=related

    Again, these are quality, loving, caring people who arent as exciting to talk about than about a preacher caught in a sex scandal.

    I, myself, do not go for sending little ones into parks to preach the gospel to people. There are people who take it too far, and children need to be children. But this documentary, like "Friend of God" before it, makes Michael Moore seem like an objective filmmaker. It would be refreshing to have a film made of Christians who arent railing against homosexuals ( believe it or not there are Pastors who dont), or little kids who dont have their heads shaved, or Christians who arent working 100% of the time trying to elect Republican candidates for office. It does exist people.

    You can find nuts to film in every group.

    I suggest this film is no more a representation of Evangelicals than a Woody Allen movie is of Judaism. And to suggest otherwise is ignorant and hateful.

    Peace.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  3. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Lifer, I have a stepson and wife who are very steeped in their church, and spend a far greater amount of their time (and probably money) helping the poor than I ever did. Regardless of the ideology, that behavior's to be lauded and encouraged anywhere you find it.

    It was of minor interest to me that Haggert was connected with "Jesus Camp"... to me, Becky steals the show. Honestly, it sounds like you're coming from and talking about the people the radio host and his guest were talking about... the guest said he was a bible-believing Christian, the radio host said he was raised a Christian, but they thought that the current spin on the religion by some was all messed up.

    It started me thinking: how long has it been since children were in camps being told the willingness to die for Jesus -- as Muslim children will die for their religion -- is crucial? I did not throw in the Muslim part, that was what the woman was telling them.... that there's a willingness-to-die gap.

    It struck me that she exhibited some envy for her opposite number in Islam, based on the commitment she saw... among suicide bombers.

    PFnV
  4. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

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    im not sure what you are saying regarding where you think im coming from, that im like the people running the camps or a more rational crowd. either way, i'll assume the best and move on from that.

    As far as what i think about the intensity of the camps and of what that particular crowd is getting the kids to do and say and think,no, i dont go for that and i and most of my ilk are not part of those kind of churches. 95% of us arent.

    My point is threefold.
    1. This documentary is in no way representive of Evangelical Christianity as a whole. maybe a nutty 5% sect, a nutty 5% sect you can find in any religion.
    2. Coming at this time, along with other stories i have seen trotted out lately suddenly about Ted Haggard, i find it offensive and insensitive to the people who have endured what they have, people that I know personally.
    3. Instead of talking about something positive about what you believe, its solely a swipe at another religion. I wouldnt post videos insinuating crazy and/or dangeous Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc....whatever, so I dont take kindly to the negative thread. Especially directed at this time, and at people who are currently grieving.

    ive pretty much said my peace.
  5. STFarmy

    STFarmy Rookie

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    That's a good point. I disliked how they were insinuating that this group was indicative of all Evangelicals. Evangelical Christianity is such a HUUUGE group, including many different denominations, political beliefs, etc. that it's a little hasty to say that all of them are like the kooks in this "documentary". We are fortunate enough, however, to live in a country where you are free to do something like this. I know that a descendant of Van Gogh made one about Islam, and he ended up dead.
  6. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

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    I agree on both counts. People are free to make such films. People wont be killed for posting about it here. And I am free to criticize the taste of such a post, especially at this time.

    Its all good, :)
  7. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your assumption's correct. I figure based on your own post here, which focused on other aspects rather than us-vs-them versions of christianity, you reflected an attitude very much like the talk show host and his guest featured in the documentary.

    And that's a good thing, for anybody of any religion (from my POV!)

    Pretty true. Your mileage may vary sect to sect, but there's a way to be an ********* no matter who you pray to, and somebody will find it.

    ???? I don't get who's being insensitive how? Insensitive to haggard's targets? His family? congregation? I don't get this. The documentary was about the woman and haggard showed up for maybe 5 minutes.

    It's a documentary, Lifer, about a real person with a real camp. I don't get who's grieving about what. By the way, I saw several documentaries about "holy warriors" which dealt with that syndrome among Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I've seen tons of footage, including whole documentaries, about how Muslims indoctrinate their children.

    Who are you grieving for at this woman's summer camp? That's what the documentary is about. Again, I'm confused.

    If so, I'll let it lie. I do know that recently a former parishoner shot up his church, and that's got to be harrowing. I just don't see the connection.

    What I was trying to get at by even talking about the radio host and his caller, is that 95% of any faith are realistic people not bent on a crusade, and that I assumed that to be the case with you.

    PFnV
  8. PatsBowlorBust

    PatsBowlorBust Rookie

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    It was a OK movie, I liked it. The kids talking to the President cut out, is a great example of the horrible infusion of Church with State we live in nowadays. Something that is spoken of in Revelations
  9. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 Rookie

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    Last edited: Feb 24, 2008
  10. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

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    the Pastor was a drug addict and the camp was shut down.....thats your sum up??

    for one thing, the Pastor I believe you are referring to wasnt even a part of the camp. You might want to read the earlier posts. Ted Haggard has been gone from New Life Church for a couple of years now. And a few months ago a gunman opened fire and killed and injured churchgoers there.
    As far as the camp being shut down, it was shut down because of the vandals and threats made by non-Christians reacting to the film. I give the filmakers some credit for acknowledging that and showing some remorse for that.


    two examples of anti-Christian violence that gets buried under the "humor" of how "nutty" Christians are. Once again, I didnt care for, and 99% of Evangelicals dont practice, the level of zealousness portrayed in the movie "Jesus Camp". And I dont condone the actions of Ted Haggard, although it sometimes forgotten that, one, he is a human being just like everyone else, and two, there are 14,000 good people doing good things there.
    But lets not forget, neither the people of New Life Church or the people from the so-called Jesus Camp, gunned down two teenaged girls or vandalized, threatened, or bullied a camp to close.
    Let us not forget who is who among the perpetrators and the victims.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    Watching this now. Frightening, and sad. I don't understand how people can do this to their children. I hope this is just the fringe among evangelicals.
  12. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    I can tell you from experience that this is actually fairly common stuff in the "charismatic" circles of the evangelicals. I wonder what I would have thought of this back when I was a Christian?
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    what does that mean -- " 'charismatic' circles "?

    Looks like one if the guys in the film is actually fairly prominent now -- Lou Engle? In the movie he comes across as a dirtbag, imo
  14. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Charismatic Christianity is a term that defines a subset of evangelical Christianity that believes that certain "spiritual gifts" are available to all true Christian believers, such as healing, exorcism, prophecy, and "speaking in tongues" (the inane chanty-babbling you sometimes heard in the video). It's a relatively new phenomenon, not really catching on big time until the 1970s-1980s. It's a big and growing slice of the pie in American Christianity.

    Hands are waiving, strange chanting is going on, and people pray using wild motions and bold, declarative statements. They say things like "I command [insert item here] in Jeeeezus name!"

    In any case, it has nothing to do with the word "charismatic" in the sense that any of those leaders has any charisma, but is rather based on a phrase coined by a Pentecostal leader in the 60s.
  15. Rossmci90

    Rossmci90 Rookie

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    Except Atheism ;)
  16. gomezcat

    gomezcat It's SIR Moderator to you Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not so sure; I'm pretty nutty and I'm an atheist. :singing:
  17. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    If the religionists spent as much time genuinely cultivating their own spirituality as they do masturbating over whatever dogma they've inherited or adopted, this world would be a much saner (and safer) place.
  18. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Too true. The people with the strongest religious opinions are the ones who spend all their time thinking everybody should think and worship just like they do in place of taking care of their of soul. The reason why in today's world the majority of the people are either Christians or Muslims is because they have been instructed to force feed it to everybody and kill those who don't believe. If more people took a Buddhist or Pagan view on spirituality and took care of themselves it would be a much safer and saner world.

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