if pats and brady win another ring..

[ctpatsfan77]

lets not get carried away. We all thought the pats would dominate the playoffs this past season... did not turn out that way, did it?

It simply proves something Belichick has said (paraphrasing): Winning a Super Bowl isn't easy. . . . even when everything is going your way.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Montana was undefeated in SBs and IMO it would be extremely hard to have Brady pass him by.

I think there’s a slight problem with this argument: TFB might become 4 out of 5 (hopefully) but you need to actually get to the SB before you can lose it, and Montana never went to 5 SBs. Suppose The 49ers beat the Giants and then went on to lose to the Bills, is Montana a worse QB for winning another game, getting knocked out later rather than sooner?

Sure you could say Jerry Rice helped with Montana's successful career but then again would Jerry Rice be the GOAT WR if not for Joe?

Rice was dominant with and without Montana, in fact Rice had better production with Young rather than Montana.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Montana was undefeated in SBs and IMO it would be extremely hard to have Brady pass him by.

Sure you could say Jerry Rice helped with Montana's successful career but then again would Jerry Rice be the GOAT WR if not for Joe?

So what you're saying is that it's better to lose in the Conference Championship game and not make it to the Super Bowl than to actually make it to the Super Bowl and then lose?

I've always heard that losing earlier in the playoffs is considered a bad thing.

 

[NEPatriot]

For me, it would show that TB can still win the big ones. While Brady remains one of the great QB's, for the past few years he's been flat in the big games and not able to carry the team. Watching the Brady 6 a few nights ago and seeing the clip of him all pumped up before the SB (2004 I think), I couldn't help but contrast that to our loss last year to the Jets where TB almost seemed uninterested.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

For Brady, it would mean that there would be a consensus among knowledgeable fans everywhere that the debate about the GOAT could only be a choice between Tommy and Joe. Everybody else would be in a discussion for "who's number three?"

I'm not sure what it would do for Belichick. He's already in any reasonable discussion for GOAT and I don't know that one more ring would set him apart definitively as the greatest ever.

To me, there are five in the discussion today:

Bill Belichick (revolutionized Defense and built consistent champions and contenders in the Cap and FA era),
Paul Brown (invented the role of the modern football coach and NFL coach, taking his teams to seven championship games),
Sid Gillman (father of the modern game and the downfield pass),
Vince Lombardi (five championships and builder of arguably the greatest dynasty in NFL history)
and Bill Walsh (innovator of the West Coast Offense).

They all meant different things for the game at different times and, in many ways, stand in a class of their own in comparison to all others. They each, in their own way, transformed the game, which is something I don't think we can say of any others.

I also think you can make a case that Chuck Noll belongs in it as well. He is a very low key guy and doesn't get the press the others have received, but only Lombardi won more championships. He didn't have the kind of impact on the game that the others had, so I guess I'd put him a small step below the other five in the final analysis.

 

[BaltimorePatsFan]

Joe Montana was not only 4-0 in Super Bowl appearances, but he actually never threw an interception in any of them. Talk about playing your best football at the most important stage.

Tom Brady can never top that, so the case here is closed.

 

[ausbacker]

Joe Montana was not only 4-0 in Super Bowl appearances, but he actually never threw an interception in any of them. Talk about playing your best football at the most important stage.

Tom Brady can never top that, so the case here is closed.

That's not an argument I'd be hanging my hat on if I were you. It's rather simplistic to argue the notion of interceptions in a Superbowl should be a defining factor in judging the greatness of players considering both have multiple Superbowl MVP awards.

It's obvious Montana is the best footballer of all time at this point in time. It's also conceivable that Brady (& dependent upon what the Colts and Manning do) could pass him by the time their respective careers are finished.

 

[patsfan13]

One more for Beli should cement his status as GOAT. Knoll also has four, but BB's doing it in an era of free agency and salary cap. Even now, Beli should be considered top 3 in any GOAT NFL coaching list along with Knoll and Walsh.

Brady, IMO needs at least two more to be GOAT status. Montana and Bradshaw have 4 each. But only Montana is really considered between the two when GOAT discussion is taking place. I think the main reason is that most people perceive Bradshaw to be just a spare part of the Steelers machine when they were winning. Unlike Montana, who was the main catalyst for the 49ers winning all 4 of their championships. The main reason why I think Brady needs at least two more is because the first championship he won, his role was similar to that of Bradshaw in those Steeler teams where he wasn't the main guy they called on from game to game to win. In 03 and 04, he was Joe Montana for us and has been to our success ever since. Two more SB wins would cement his status as GOAT.

If Brady wins #4 he would be clearly be better than Montana. He made it to a 5th SB which no other QB has done also guided to Patriots to 3 14-2 records and a 16-0 regular season.


He also has far and away the highest winning % by any QB in NFL history.

Most wins by a starting quarterback (NFL) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


He also has an outside shot for most wins by an NFL qb.

 

[TealSox]

What is your top 5 and what 2 do you have above BB and VL?

Dare I say, Don Shula.

 

[TealSox]

And if 18-1 and 11-5 after losing the franchise for an entire season and 14-2 and a league MVP constitute your idea of a black cloud, god help you if they ever land under a real one with actual dire consequences again once these two retire.

Personally, I have take nothing away from the last few years of Patriot football. The black cloud I'm referring to is one that stems from the inability to win the big one, i.e. the Super Bowl. Critics will have their arguments against the Patriots till they can prove to them, once and for all, that they don't need Vinateri or cameras to win Super Bowls. The 18-1 season was going to be the Patriots vindication, but were robbed of their glory by the Giants.

 

[patriot lifer]

Dare I say, Don Shula.

As much as it pains me to concede, very strong arguments can be made for Shula. He won sooo many games, much more than BB.

 

[Observer]

In any of these greatest ever conversations, the players of yesteryear always get the front seat, people don't want to unseat the consensus great unless they are absolutely sure. If Brady wins one more then the debate against Montana will become more interesting. The problem right now is that despite his numerical domination in touchdowns, ratings, yards etc. the big memories of Brady have become the big loss in 2007, the season lost to injury, the pummeling by Baltimore and the poor display against the Jets.

He needs a win to wash away the bad stuff and truly enter the discussion against Montana. Another win after that and he is surely GOAT.

 

[TealSox]

When you look the career of Tom Brady, you have the years in which he won 3 Super Bowls and the years he didn't. In the first years, he resemble Joe Montana with his ability to stay cool under pressure and put his team in position to win every Sunday. In the years of late, he has resembled Dan Marino insomuch as he has proven to throw his team into the WIN column - thus building a solid statistical argument to being one of the Greatest.

For the sake of Tom Brady, I only wish he could merge the two and be both the statistical threat most QBs are judged, as well as the leader that embodies the "it" factor that allows him to win big games against all odds.

 

[Ring 6]

Joe Montana was not only 4-0 in Super Bowl appearances, but he actually never threw an interception in any of them. Talk about playing your best football at the most important stage.

Tom Brady can never top that, so the case here is closed.

No the case is not close to closed. Brady can match and exceed the number of SB wins. He has also exceeded Montana in many other ways, including passing numbers, overall record and success outside of SB trophies.

 

[Ring 6]

When you look the career of Tom Brady, you have the years in which he won 3 Super Bowls and the years he didn't. In the first years, he resemble Joe Montana with his ability to stay cool under pressure and put his team in position to win every Sunday. In the years of late, he has resembled Dan Marino insomuch as he has proven to throw his team into the WIN column - thus building a solid statistical argument to being one of the Greatest.

For the sake of Tom Brady, I only wish he could merge the two and be both the statistical threat most QBs are judged, as well as the leader that embodies the "it" factor that allows him to win big games against all odds.

In the years Montana didnt win the SB he also didnt look like the Montana you are describing.
You talk as if Montana won the SB every year. But for an Asante Samuel drop, Brady has the same results, actually better results than Montana. Somehow you turn that into Montana was cool under pressure for his entire career and Brady turned into Marino. Its just not reality.

 

[Ring 6]

Dare I say, Don Shula.

Well you could, but then you would be wrong. And that still doesnt add up.

 

[Ring 6]

For me, it would show that TB can still win the big ones. While Brady remains one of the great QB's, for the past few years he's been flat in the big games and not able to carry the team. Watching the Brady 6 a few nights ago and seeing the clip of him all pumped up before the SB (2004 I think), I couldn't help but contrast that to our loss last year to the Jets where TB almost seemed uninterested.

Since 2004, the last SB Championship
2005 won a playoff game
2006 2 wins, into AFCC game and the defense folded. Brady's ability to win the big one hardly in question here
2007 undefeated season until SB, leads team back for go ahead score, and defense hands it back. Brady's ability to win big game hardly in question here
2008 injured
2009 defense gets destroyed
2010 throws for 300 yards, brings team back, defense fails.

Please show me where Bradys contribution to winning big games has changed at all. He cannot win by himself. He didnt in 01-04 and no QB ever will.
I guess we have to take every QB who has gone any 5 year stretch without winning a SB regardless of anything else and say they cant win the big one, right?

 

[Observer]

I guess we have to take every QB who has gone any 5 year stretch without winning a SB regardless of anything else and say they cant win the big one, right?

Its not that they can't, its that they haven't. It becomes tough to argue that you are the greatest when you are losing at the end of each season. Like I said earlier, one win and all that will be forgotten but until then the most recent memory of Brady that we are going to have is going to be yet another disappointing loss.

 

[TealSox]

In the years Montana didnt win the SB he also didnt look like the Montana you are describing.
You talk as if Montana won the SB every year. But for an Asante Samuel drop, Brady has the same results, actually better results than Montana. Somehow you turn that into Montana was cool under pressure for his entire career and Brady turned into Marino. Its just not reality.

I can't speak to the legacy of Montana. I'm simply trying to speak to the differing halves of Brady's career. And that isn't to say that Brady hasn't been the same winning QB he was early in his career, but statistically, he burst on the scene. And in doing so, he answered a lot of critics that held it against him in the Manning vs. Brady argument, which one argument on the way to GOAT.

 

[NEPatriot]

Since 2004, the last SB Championship
2005 won a playoff game
2006 2 wins, into AFCC game and the defense folded. Brady's ability to win the big one hardly in question here
2007 undefeated season until SB, leads team back for go ahead score, and defense hands it back. Brady's ability to win big game hardly in question here
2008 injured
2009 defense gets destroyed
2010 throws for 300 yards, brings team back, defense fails.

Please show me where Bradys contribution to winning big games has changed at all. He cannot win by himself. He didnt in 01-04 and no QB ever will.
I guess we have to take every QB who has gone any 5 year stretch without winning a SB regardless of anything else and say they cant win the big one, right?

We just look at this differently. I just don't see the same QB in big games. I think if he had some of these big games his status among the greatest QB's wouldn't even be in question.