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Idle thoughts...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Mar 21, 2009.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    #91 Jersey

    .... God this off season just gets better and better.

    1. I almost didn't listen to BB's interview on weei the other day, because I didn't think I was in the mood to listen to a half hour of world class obsfucation. However I was pleasantly surprised at how forthcoming he was about the Cassel and Peppers situations. Here is my interpretation of what he said.

    Cassel - Clearly the Pats were constrained by their cap situation, so the had to move Matt sometime within the first 2 or 3 days of FA or they would be completely hamstrung to accomplish the rest of what they needed to do to improve the team. One of the things I don't think that people understand is that ANYTHING we got for Matt Cassel was a bonus, since he was in the last year of his contract. The good news is that the Pats has a shot at getting at least something was using the Franchise Tag. The bad news is that THIS particular year using that tag brought us right up to the cap, so we could only keep Cassel on the team for a few days, IF we were going to make some of the other moves that would improve the team. Teams KNEW this well before the draft. They all knew that the Pats HAD to make a quick deal, and that's not good for the Pats negotiating stance.

    Bottom line KC was ready with a deal. The 34th pick most likely gives the Pats a guy with a first round Grade, and KC picks up the risk of signing Cassel to a long term contract, and paying him a GUARATEED $14.6MM. None of the other teams came close to that deal. BB was clear that at the time they had KC's offer in hand there were NO OTHER DEALS on the table. All there was were vague inuendos and rumors of "possible" deals. Bottom line a bird in the hand.....

    PEPPERS - The thing I got was that there CANNOT be a trade for Peppers....to any team... until he signs his Franchise Tender. I'm SURE that most of us didn't know that little fact. The Bottom Line here is that it is kind of useless to even SPECULATE about a possible Peppers trade until we see a new wire announcement that Peppers has signed his Tender. IF that happens before the Draft......THEN I would bet that within 24-48 hrs, Peppers will be dealt....maybe even to the Pats, but I have already made myself clear on how I would feel about that.

    2. I don't see any scenerio where the Pats keep more than 5 rookies on the final 53 man roster, so it will be very interesting to see how Bill uses those 12 picks to get those 5 players. One of the interesting things he said in his interview was the the difference between picking at 23 over 34 is NOT that you will get a better athlete, but that you have more OPTIONS on who that athlete IS. A nice subtle BB observation. Personally I'd LOVE to see him use those bottom 6 picks to move up in the draft to insure they not only get 5-6 great athletes, but they get the guys they want the most.

    3. This is day 17 of the Jason Taylor watch. Somehow I think this may go right up to training camp. Jason usually works out on his own in the off season, so he might want to avoid signing with a team early, so he can avoid all the off season workout programs and mini camps. If he signed now he may feel obligated to participate.

    4. Its not the speed, but the ACCELERATION that is what I'm looking for in our draft picks. I think the 40 yd dash is the most OVERRATED stat. Its not how fast you can run 40 yds, its how fast you can get to your TOP speed. Thats what made Barry Sanders and Jerry Rice so good. ACCELERATION = SEPARATION, both on the offense AND defense. No discussion of a draft pick should be made WITHOUT looking at a players 10 yd split, and cone drill times. Speed is nice, ACCELERATION is nicer.

    5. Could someone put a list of all the best Safety prospects for me. I think I read about a 6'4" 200+ CB who might make an awesome S.

    6. The more I think on it, the more I think the Pats might use one of their first 4 picks on a WR - a big one (Harbin, from MD comes to mind)

    7. I heard that the NFL was looking into changing the draft order, so that teams that made the playoffs wouldn't be drafting before teams that didn't. If it comes to pass I think it would mean the Pats would draft at #20 instead of 23. What are the chances of that happening for this draft.
  2. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    On #7, if that were to change then it would not take place until next year. There is zero chance of it changing the order of next month's draft.
  3. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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  4. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    1----I'm always happy to hear CoachB...and he was said quite a lot about both situations. I think all Patriot fans knew how it was with Cassel and the cap...the trade was needed ASAP to free up money for players. NO question about that. As far as Peppers has gone..I think most fans realize that he has to sign the tender...SO..basically a trade would be worked out and then he would sign it and it would be done...case in point Tebucky Jones a few years ago..he signed it and the trade happened. I agree..when he signs teh trade will be done..BUT that is just a formality..it has to be done and would be..he gains nothing at that point by NOT signing it. Not big on Peppers coming here esp for big money...but for short term 2 years or so..it MAY be OK. Although I would rather he clog up someone else's cap not ours. He may say teh write things to get here..and change modes quick..so that is why I am saying short term.
    2----Of course one always gets a better pick further up one is in the draft...and what he did not mention is that players drop out of the first round and can be scooped up at 34..with 2nd round money. There is an advantage being higher, but some years there is a plateau at certain places in the draft where talent is similar and places mean little.
    3----Agreed..if Taylor is not signed..it may be he is waiting to land here before TC. No reason to rush his signing for those reasons..so that he has not signed is OK. (And makes the Peppers watch take fold..)
    4---A nice observation..true.
    5----Sean Smith Utah 6'4" 214 Utah...I am sure that some others can name the top ones..and why they would make it here
    6----Top 4?? maybe I think sometime they will but..we shall see.
    7----Not for this draft...MAYBE next year.
  5. eom

    eom Rookie

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    apparently, in this case 'most of us' = patfanken.
    can't trade him if he's not under contract, dude.

    this just means they can't trade him today, not that they can't trade him tomorrow --- and speculation usually concerns tomorrow....
  6. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    2. That's the final 53 man roster, there's also 8 other players needed to fill out the Practice Squad. NE has already used one of the "12" picks (assuming the projection of 3 comp picks works out). With the remaining 11 picks NE can indeed move around a little to get whom they want, and they could also trade a couple forward, but I think 5 rookies sticking isn't thinking in terms of the roster renovation BB started last year.
    -- By the end of the 2008 season, NE had 16 rookies under contract. They've since released two of them.
    -- Most of the rest are late round/UDFA kids who aren't locks by any means.
    -- Finally, there's a number of veteran reserves who could stand an upgrade, not to mention some veterans who are worrisome candidates for injury.
    NE may only keep 5 rookies on the 53 after final cutdown, but they're likely to keep as many again on the Practice Squad, and call another 2-3 back as they raid the Practice Squad for injury replacements.

    6. Did you mean Heywood-Bey of Maryland or Harvin of Florida?
  7. mayoclinic

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    I don't believe that is strictly true. It is true that there can be no trade for Peppers while he is not under contract to Carolina, which is his current status. In order for Carolina to trade him they have to have him under contract. All the franchise tender does is protect them from having another team sign him away for nothing in return. However, there are 2 ways in which they could trade him: (1) have him sign the franchise tender; and (2) have him sign a long-term contract. Either way, he would be under contract to them, and hence tradeable. Theoretically, Peppers' agent could negotiate a deal as the middleman between the Panthers and another team, and the Panthers would then sign Peppers and then trade him. What BB did say was that he would not do business that way; he wants Peppers signed and under contract before he starts serious negotiations.
  8. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He has to sign the franchise tender first even if he wanted to stay with the Panthers long-term.
  9. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rookie

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    The person who gave this thread 1 star deserves no stars for the rating.
  10. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I gave it 5 just to make up for that guy.
  11. ctpatsfan77

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    For 2009, zero—too late to change things.

    Interestingly enough, though, it sounds like they're considering making that change only for the first round (i.e., if it were done in 2009, the Pats would move up three spots in the first, but not in other rounds).
  12. mayoclinic

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    That's very interesting, and not what I understood. If everyone wants this to happen, what is to stop Carolina from withdrawing the franchise tender and signing Peppers to a long-term deal and then trading him?
  13. reflexblue

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    Re: Idle thoughts.....

    On #4 i agree the 40 yard dash is very overated for Most players. I like the 10 yrd dash better especially for DL and LB. Again its about acceleration as you said. How many times during a game does one of the front seven have to run 40 yards if they have to something very wrong happened.
    And as far as this years 12 picks and rookies i think there is a limite like you said of how many make the team. But i think BB will trade them for future higher picks. A 2 for a 1 or a 3 for a 2 and so on next year.
  14. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    If they signed him,,,obviously Peppers would have to agree...yes?? SO..if they withdrew the franchise tag...he's a free agent so Carolina and every other team could bid on him. He would have the final say. So..why would he sign a long term deal with Carolina in teh first place?? He wants out...
  15. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's a fairly obvious risk, which is why I said IF everyone agreed. If Peppers had the deal in place that he wanted and merely wanted to get traded to NE (or some other specific team), then he wouldn't have any incentive to look elsewhere. Similarly, there's always the risk that Peppers signs with Carolina (either the franchise tender or a long term deal) and they refuse to trade him. But I'm not sure it's in anyone's best interest to not act in good faith.
  16. eom

    eom Rookie

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    if they remove the franchise tag, he's ufa and signs with the pats --- carolina gets no compensation.

    if carolina, peppers, and pats work out a deal, pep signs long term, then carolina says, "haha...joke's on you!" and refuses to trade, then he refuses to play --- carolina gets no compensation.
    not to mention, those kind of deals might also be run by the league office beforehand, for all I know.

    if peppers signs tender, then signs long term deal, then carolina trades him --- carolina gets compensation.
  17. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    He can also play hardball and just Deion Branch his way out of Carolina. Carolina can play hard ball and demand two number ones..but they do risk not getting that and being stuck with a player that does not want to be there.
  18. BradyFTW!

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    Can the contract itself be made contingent on a trade, or is it just assumed that everyone will operate in good faith?
  19. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    Why wouldn't Carolina simply sign him first to the franchise, then to the contract drawn up by the other team, and then trade him with that exact contract. Wouldn't that have the same effect and put no one (particularly Carolina) at risk?
  20. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yup, and unless he signs a long term contract with the Panthers that contains no signing bonus, which he won't do because he isn't stupid, they probably aren't going to trade him in the last capped season where bonus accelerates...and because even beyond cap consequences it would be the equivalent of paying him to play for someone else...

    I have never seen a season where fans were so confused about the tag or the cap.

    If he signs the tag Carolina can put him on the trading block. They would still need to find a team willing to either absorb his tag or sign him to a pre negotiated long term deal on the day he's traded and compensate Carolina sufficiently with draft picks to allow them to walk away from the cornerstone of their defense.

    If he doesn't sign the tag he and his agent can continue to talk to as many teams as they want but no deal gets done unless they find one for Carolina and Carolina agrees to listen and negotiate with that team. Then if they can all agree to terms he signs the tag on that day, is traded on that day, and likely signed to a new long term extension by his new team on that day. That's the way it most often works in tag and trade.

    When NY traded Abraham to Atlanta he had not signed his tag. In fact he had made it clear he was not going to play for the JETS ever again. Atlanta wanted him and he wanted them but they were not willing to trade 2 firsts for him. So he asked NY (who always intended to trade him) to work something out with Atlanta AFTER he and his agent had agreed to contract parameters. NY asked for Schaub and a 2nd rounder. Atlanta said no, we'll give you a second, period. Then NY said well Seattle caught wind of this and is interested and they'd give us a first. Only Atlanta's first was a lot higher and Abraham refused to negotiate with Seattle on a contract. But rather than eventually lose him if Seattle offered substantially more to him in contract or he just had to do a deal to get out of NY, Atlanta went to Denver and did a picks trade that gave them a late 1st they were willing to part with for Abraham. He then signed his tag and was traded and extended by Atlanta the same day...but the whole process took a couple of weeks from start (agent locates Atlanta and agrees to parameters of a deal for his client) to finish (Atlanta and NY agree on compensation).

    That whole part in the middle is what BB wants no part of...
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