Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

[Brady_to_Moss]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

No, not at all. Between the TE's, Amendola and the rest this crew is far better. Not even close. Why anyone would even attempt that comparison is beyond me.

I think the TEs alone make it better..But amendola is always hurt (as are the TE's as of late)....jones and jenkins may not even make the team.

I can see why people are very frustrated..they have the right to be with what this team has brought in and letting welker go...

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

If Sanders has a good year, he will look for a bigger paycheck than the patriots will be willing to pay. If Sanders has a bad year, we won't want him. Free agency is free agency. If his agent is willing to give the patriots a discount, he probably should be fired.

It's already being reported the Steelers are open to extending him. As I said, maybe the Pats were readly to give him a long term contract once we were awarded him. If we extended him now, he wouldn't cost as much, much like Gronk not being in the top 5 of highest paid TEs per year.

We paid Welker around $18 million for his first 5 seasons here. Do you think that amount wouldn't be much higher if we orginally signed him to a one year deal then tried to re-sign him AFTER the 2007 season?

 

[mgteich]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

I get that the patriots wanted to sign Sanders to a long-term deal. My question is whether, when push came to shove, whether Sanders would have signed a cap-friendly deal with us.

It's already being reported the Steelers are open to extending him. As I said, maybe the Pats were readly to give him a long term contract once we were awarded him. If we extended him now, he wouldn't cost as much, much like Gronk not being in the top 5 of highest paid TEs per year.

We paid Welker around $18 million for his first 5 seasons here. Do you think that amount wouldn't be much higher if we orginally signed him to a one year deal then tried to re-sign him AFTER the 2007 season?

 

[NormZauchin]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

Since you introduced Samuel Beckett, I'll carry the reference one step farther. The discussions on this board concerning the number and type of receivers that the Pats have/should have/will have remind me of Molloy's problem of accounting for his 16 sucking stones in his four pockets.

 

[primetime]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

No, not at all. Between the TE's, Amendola and the rest this crew is far better. Not even close. Why anyone would even attempt that comparison is beyond me.

Because people seem to be very low on Amendola because he's replacing Welker (never mind that he is better than Welker was when each came to New England) and forget about the tight ends and that Hernandez is basically a WR who occasionally moonlights at TE. Sanders is nothing special and it shouldn't really break anyone's heart that they failed to sign him.

 

[Brady2Moss]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

3. I just want to point out that it makes my head want to explode every time people want to throw out that the Pats only scored 13 points in the last playoff game and make it seem like if was because we had a serious flaw with our offense. Those people seem to forget the over 420 yds the offense racked up. The 5 trips into the red zone. The lack of any turnovers to help, and the 2 we gave the Ravens to hinder. Yeah, and losing 4 starters over the course of the game didn't help either (2 on offense)

Laughed real hard at this. 13 points was just a culmination of years of playoff failures due to the offense sucking ass at the most pivotal times due to health, lack of physical talent outside, and no confidence to run the ball with any consistency when down by even a single point.

Maybe that is why they blew the entire receiving corps up this year, because after 3 years of failure due to a multitude of reasons that you cannot ignore just because if Gronk was healthy we'd be the SB champs, BB might had enough.

Now his plan to replace that receiving corps with an injury prone Welker substitution and no one else whose had a lick of success in the NFL is questionable. Jones as an intriguing prospect? He's been in the NFL for 3 years and sucked all 3 of them. Hoping McDaniels and co can hit on 2 receivers in the draft because that is the only way the receiving group will be fine given how injury prone it is.

 

[supafly]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

Now his plan to replace that receiving corps with an injury prone Welker substitution and no one else whose had a lick of success in the NFL is questionable. Jones as an intriguing prospect? He's been in the NFL for 3 years and sucked all 3 of them. Hoping McDaniels and co can hit on 2 receivers in the draft because that is the only way the receiving group will be fine given how injury prone it is.

I honestly don't think that Llyod, Edelman, and Branch were some great WR corps from last season, and I'm surprised that so many are so worried about it.

We've probably improved upon Branch with either Jones/Jenkins, and Edelman has stayed the same, so the only real concern is how to replace ONE receiver at the moment in the early month of April. That can be done in a number of ways. Llyod was a nice contributor for someone who had experience in this system, but he also had around a 50% catch rate, fell down after grabbing the ball just about every time, and couldn't beat man coverage for crap.

It really only comes down to Belichick feeling that we can improve upon Brandon Llyod's talents, attitude, and salary. That seems to be the only concern at the moment. We still have the entire draft, some trade conversations to probably explore, camp/roster cuts, and even the possibility of bringing Llyod back.

Because people seem to be very low on Amendola because he's replacing Welker (never mind that he is better than Welker was when each came to New England) and forget about the tight ends and that Hernandez is basically a WR who occasionally moonlights at TE. Sanders is nothing special and it shouldn't really break anyone's heart that they failed to sign him.

Exactly.

Another thing to consider is that we're still set in the slot with Amendola and Edelman, who are 2 younger players who can take over the majority of Welker's production and even make some plays at more crucial times.

I'm not sure why so many seem to consider Amendola a "weak" player due to his injury status? He returned from a potentially season ending injury in 5 games last year, and just seeing him bust his helmet in the tunnel walking into the locker room when he broke his collerbone tells me that he's got plenty of fire, heart, and determination. The guy was honestly more frustrated about not being able to continue his awesome first half of that Thurs. night game, and letting his teammates down by getting injured than he was worried about having a potentially season/career ending injury. On top of that he's already replaced Welker once at Texas Tech and had a better senior season that Welker did.

If he does end up getting hurt again we'll have to use Edelman for a handful of games like we've done before. The world keeps spinning though.

So many want to laud the front office/Belichick for their incredible attention to everything financial and salary cap related + their dominant run in the past 10+ yrs, but then they question letting go of some fan favorite older vets like Wes Welker? It doesn't work both ways.

I think the TEs alone make it better..But amendola is always hurt (as are the TE's as of late)....jones and jenkins may not even make the team.

I can see why people are very frustrated..they have the right to be with what this team has brought in and letting welker go...

I too can see why some are frustrated, but when you swap out Welker/Amendola which was obviously their plan and has been since last summer (or at least not paying Welker anyway), you're left with a comparison of 2012 vs 2013 WR's that looks something like this:

2012

Llyod
Edelman
Branch



2013

High round pick 1st/2nd/3rd round
Edelman
Jones
Jenkins


How is this really any different? People act like Llyod, Edelman, and Branch were some kind of super receiver grouping, lol. If anything, we've got a very good chance at replacing this group of talent limitations and older players with youth, size, speed, and additional talent.

Edelman remains the same obviously, and could potentially see more looks since he was IR'ed last season. At least he'll back up Amendola in a worst case scenario, so really we have Amendola + Edelman to take over Welker's role. It's hard to imagine either one of Jones/Jenkins at not being able to produce as much as Deion Branch did last season, who's still on speed dial if we happen to need him for a vet player after week one. That leaves the main replacement for Brandon Llyod...who could not beat man coverage to save his life and had something around a 50% catch rate. We also know about his limitations after catching the pass, so that has a chance to be improved upon too.

Belichick may even double up on the WR position in the draft, and there's still the possibility that we sign an additional player sometime before TC. Hell, he may even have a plan B for the Sanders deal, although I have questioned whether or not that was a real deal for the past 5 days, but I won't get into the foil hat conspiracy theories about collusion. Let's just say that there's a very good chance the Pats could have had Sanders had they really wanted him.

 

[supafly]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

If the Patriots only hope for improving their wide receiving corps was
Sanders, then they should have offered him 5 million dollars. Common
sense was an extra 1 million wasn't enough.

Have you considered the possibility that the offer was contrived by the
NFL? The NFLPA can't claim that no players received an offer sheet.

One would definitely think that the Patriots could have had Sanders had they really wanted him, yes.

It is certainly something that has crossed my mind, especially since seeing the 1yr/2.5m dollar offer. They could have offered him something slightly higher to make sure that the Steelers couldn't match, yet they chose not to, so this should tell us how much they 'really' wanted Sanders. They weren't willing to pay him even what Llyod's bonus was...They took a shot. You can't even call it a gamble because they really didn't risk anything. It's more like they took a shot in the dark, and probably didn't feel that strongly one way or another.

I hate to think that way, but after seeing no one interested in offering any talented players offers as RFA's (why pay a guy like Cruz 7.5 million this year, when you can just wait until free agency in February and pay him 12 million?....huh??) it certainly sends up some red flags.

There are talented and explosive WR's lately like Mike Wallace and Victor Cruz, and no one has offered them anything....yet they'll be a line out the door in February when free agency hits for teams willing to pay them 12-13 million a season.

 

[supafly]

re: Idle thoughts ....while "Waiting for Godot" or rather Sanders.

Feels like 2006??

Sweeeet...

I'll be looking forward to that 12-4 record then, along with the #2 scoring defense in the league and being up 21-3 in the AFC Championship game with our sights set firmly on another possible Lombardi.

 

[mgteich]

1) You are counting on a draftee to be a starting receiver, and a better one than Lloyd. That is usually not a good idea.

2) You are counting on Jones or Jenkins (presumably this position could be won by a receiver yet to be signed) to replace the production of Branch. First, this is a low bar; we'd like improvement. And second, these players have shown little so far in their careers, and there is little reason to believe that they will succeed where much more skilled veterans have failed. How many receivers have the patriots brought to camp in the past couple of years. How many not named Lloyd were, in the end, even worth a roster spot? It is easy to say Branch didn't do much. Branch was our #3 WR in the oft-run 3 WR set for one of the most productive passing game in the NFL. Unfortunately, Branch likely has little left; but even now he may be able to beat out Jones and Jenkins. I am fine with moving on. I am just pointing out that equal production is not a given. Many mistakes and the occasional WR-caused interception seems more likely.

3) You wish to sweep the Amendola choice under the rug because this seems to be a choice made last year. That doesn't remove the sting of the likely decrease in productivity. Many here would be fine if we had improved the rest of the receiving corps to better balance the production of the receivers.

4) It sucks to go into the draft looking to plug this year's starting lineup at WR. I would much rather have gone into the draft looking for future starters at CB, S, DE, DT and/or OG. Put another way, if I were going to focus on 2013 upgrades, I would have like to have been able to do that at DE or DT.

I honestly don't think that Llyod, Edelman, and Branch were some great WR corps from last season, and I'm surprised that so many are so worried about it.

We've probably improved upon Branch with either Jones/Jenkins, and Edelman has stayed the same, so the only real concern is how to replace ONE receiver at the moment in the early month of April. That can be done in a number of ways. Llyod was a nice contributor for someone who had experience in this system, but he also had around a 50% catch rate, fell down after grabbing the ball just about every time, and couldn't beat man coverage for crap.

It really only comes down to Belichick feeling that we can improve upon Brandon Llyod's talents, attitude, and salary. That seems to be the only concern at the moment. We still have the entire draft, some trade conversations to probably explore, camp/roster cuts, and even the possibility of bringing Llyod back.



Exactly.

Another thing to consider is that we're still set in the slot with Amendola and Edelman, who are 2 younger players who can take over the majority of Welker's production and even make some plays at more crucial times.

I'm not sure why so many seem to consider Amendola a "weak" player due to his injury status? He returned from a potentially season ending injury in 5 games last year, and just seeing him bust his helmet in the tunnel walking into the locker room when he broke his collerbone tells me that he's got plenty of fire, heart, and determination. The guy was honestly more frustrated about not being able to continue his awesome first half of that Thurs. night game, and letting his teammates down by getting injured than he was worried about having a potentially season/career ending injury. On top of that he's already replaced Welker once at Texas Tech and had a better senior season that Welker did.

If he does end up getting hurt again we'll have to use Edelman for a handful of games like we've done before. The world keeps spinning though.

So many want to laud the front office/Belichick for their incredible attention to everything financial and salary cap related + their dominant run in the past 10+ yrs, but then they question letting go of some fan favorite older vets like Wes Welker? It doesn't work both ways.



I too can see why some are frustrated, but when you swap out Welker/Amendola which was obviously their plan and has been since last summer (or at least not paying Welker anyway), you're left with a comparison of 2012 vs 2013 WR's that looks something like this:

2012

Llyod
Edelman
Branch



2013

High round pick 1st/2nd/3rd round
Edelman
Jones
Jenkins


How is this really any different? People act like Llyod, Edelman, and Branch were some kind of super receiver grouping, lol. If anything, we've got a very good chance at replacing this group of talent limitations and older players with youth, size, speed, and additional talent.

Edelman remains the same obviously, and could potentially see more looks since he was IR'ed last season. At least he'll back up Amendola in a worst case scenario, so really we have Amendola + Edelman to take over Welker's role. It's hard to imagine either one of Jones/Jenkins at not being able to produce as much as Deion Branch did last season, who's still on speed dial if we happen to need him for a vet player after week one. That leaves the main replacement for Brandon Llyod...who could not beat man coverage to save his life and had something around a 50% catch rate. We also know about his limitations after catching the pass, so that has a chance to be improved upon too.

Belichick may even double up on the WR position in the draft, and there's still the possibility that we sign an additional player sometime before TC. Hell, he may even have a plan B for the Sanders deal, although I have questioned whether or not that was a real deal for the past 5 days, but I won't get into the foil hat conspiracy theories about collusion. Let's just say that there's a very good chance the Pats could have had Sanders had they really wanted him.

 

[patfanken]

1) You are counting on a draftee to be a starting receiver, and a better one than Lloyd. That is usually not a good idea.

Totally agree. Even with the loss of Sanders, I don't understand those who feel that we can fill the gaps at WR through the draft. History EMPATICALLY tells us that just isn't going to happen. The top Pats rookie WR was Branch and his total was 460yd (#2 Was Edelman at 380). League wide, outside of the occasional top 10 pick its exceeding rare for a rookie WR to make an impact his rookie year. This offense in particular isn't rookie friendly.

Also there are the stats that tell us that in general, 50% of all first round WR picks are busts for their careers, let alone their first year. And where we are likely to pick one that number drops to around 20%

The fact is clear, that while we can improve the receiving corps long term through the draft, its highly unlikely that it can be done forTHIS year.

2) You are counting on Jones or Jenkins (presumably this position could be won by a receiver yet to be signed) to replace the production of Branch. First, this is a low bar; we'd like improvement. And second, these players have shown little so far in their careers, and there is little reason to believe that they will succeed where much more skilled veterans have failed. How many receivers have the patriots brought to camp in the past couple of years. How many not named Lloyd were, in the end, even worth a roster spot? It is easy to say Branch didn't do much. Branch was our #3 WR in the oft-run 3 WR set for one of the most productive passing game in the NFL. Unfortunately, Branch likely has little left; but even now he may be able to beat out Jones and Jenkins. I am fine with moving on. I am just pointing out that equal production is not a given. Many mistakes and the occasional WR-caused interception seems more likely.

This goes back to my opinion that we need to start to forget about the old receiver designations (TE/WR/SR) and start thinking of them as receivers in general. Hernandez and Gronk have proven that they are good for over 2000 yds of production, when healthy. That's a great foundation Getting another 2000 from a combination of 4 WR's and 3 RBs does not seem like wild speculation

3) You wish to sweep the Amendola choice under the rug because this seems to be a choice made last year. That doesn't remove the sting of the likely decrease in productivity. Many here would be fine if we had improved the rest of the receiving corps to better balance the production of the receivers.

I disagree with your supposition that Amendola's production will likely to decrease because of some lack of skill on his part. Hell, of course it will. So would have Welker's if he'd resigned.

The Pats weren't looking to get rid of Welker when last season started. They were looking to spread the ball around more, which meant cutting down on Welker's targets. Those early injuries to Hernandez and Edelman threw that plan in the crapper, and offense remained the same. Welker got his targets and his usual production.

DA's production is going to be less that Welker's because he will see fewer targets if things go as planned. You can't tell me that if Gronk and Hernandez had been healthy all year, that Welker would have had the same numbers

4) It sucks to go into the draft looking to plug this year's starting lineup at WR. I would much rather have gone into the draft looking for future starters at CB, S, DE, DT and/or OG. Put another way, if I were going to focus on 2013 upgrades, I would have like to have been able to do that at DE or DT.

Unless we go an pick up a Devery Henderson or that Denario Alexander guy, its likely the Pats are going to draft a WR with one of their first 3 picks. However I doubt very much they will draft that player with the idea that he's going to make a big impact on the receiver corps, Rather they will draft him with the idea that hopefully he'll become an impact player down the road in a year or two.

 

[supafly]

Totally agree. Even with the loss of Sanders, I don't understand those who feel that we can fill the gaps at WR through the draft. History EMPATICALLY tells us that just isn't going to happen. The top Pats rookie WR was Branch and his total was 460yd (#2 Was Edelman at 380). League wide, outside of the occasional top 10 pick its exceeding rare for a rookie WR to make an impact his rookie year. This offense in particular isn't rookie friendly.

It would depend on how you'd consider Brandon Tate's situation when he was basically redshirted. Technically, he wasn't a rookie, but it certainly was his first real season playing.

He put up 432 yds, which would be above #2 Edelman and close to #1 Branch.

The fact is clear, that while we can improve the receiving corps long term through the draft, its highly unlikely that it can be done forTHIS year.

Unless we go an pick up a Devery Henderson or that Denario Alexander guy, its likely the Pats are going to draft a WR with one of their first 3 picks. However I doubt very much they will draft that player with the idea that he's going to make a big impact on the receiver corps, Rather they will draft him with the idea that hopefully he'll become an impact player down the road in a year or two.

These last 2 statements sound like you'd be right using common sense, but again--I think that depends on what your expectations are, and what skillset we could take advantage of from a rookie.

We all saw Tate stretch the field, average 17 ypc+, score 3-4 TD's etc by only catching 25 or so balls. But Tate was in place to make some bigger plays from time to time, and he also made some to draw some attention from coverage too (obviously). Belichick is a master is using strengths to our advantage while hiding weaknesses. We certainly have use for a fast, field stretcher at the moment--even if he only catches 25-30 balls this year he will still add a new element to this offense that we've been lacking lately.

If we can get 35 or so catches out of a high round rookie, we're golden...not just for the future, but he can add to this year, and more than many seem to think.

We still need another piece or two of course, but we could get more pluses from the rookie than you may think.

 

[supafly]

1) You are counting on a draftee to be a starting receiver, and a better one than Lloyd. That is usually not a good idea.

2) You are counting on Jones or Jenkins (presumably this position could be won by a receiver yet to be signed) to replace the production of Branch. First, this is a low bar; we'd like improvement. And second, these players have shown little so far in their careers, and there is little reason to believe that they will succeed where much more skilled veterans have failed. How many receivers have the patriots brought to camp in the past couple of years. How many not named Lloyd were, in the end, even worth a roster spot? It is easy to say Branch didn't do much. Branch was our #3 WR in the oft-run 3 WR set for one of the most productive passing game in the NFL. Unfortunately, Branch likely has little left; but even now he may be able to beat out Jones and Jenkins. I am fine with moving on. I am just pointing out that equal production is not a given. Many mistakes and the occasional WR-caused interception seems more likely.

Mg--give me a break...

Deion Branch caught a whopping 16 balls last season. If you don't think we can potentially improve upon that production and age etc, then you're just looking at it too negatively.

Bill Belichick, Tom Brady, and Josh McDaniels are not stupid people. We will field a viable WR grouping that will still produce us points. And no, I'm not assuming that a rookie WR will be able to come in a take over Llyod's role. I'm assuming that he'll be able to do what Brandon Tate did with around 400-500 yds and 3-4 TD's as an improvement on the WR3.

We still have a hole that needs filled in Llyod's shoes, but let's not make him out to be Randy Moss 2007 either. Llyod had obvious limitations, couldn't beat man coverage at all, and couldn't get any YACs. To think that we can potentially stay on equal ground there or even improve isn't out of the realm of possibility.

3) You wish to sweep the Amendola choice under the rug because this seems to be a choice made last year. That doesn't remove the sting of the likely decrease in productivity. Many here would be fine if we had improved the rest of the receiving corps to better balance the production of the receivers.

It doesn't have anything to do with the choice being made last year. It has to do with them being pretty confident in the decision. Do you really think they'd play with fire over a million or so dollars? They'd have raised their offer to 2/11 and Welker would have probably stayed here and passed on DEN's 2/12 offer since ours had more guaranteed money in the first year.

All he wanted was something competitive and reasonable. They chose to play hardball in a militant and tiring fashion, over and over again...They did this because they know something (along with the other 31 GM's) that we don't as far as production from the slot etc, and Welker in general. We can't laud the front office for being at the top of the salary cap game for 10+ yrs, and then whine about cutting older vet players who have served their purpose.

Amendola does many things better than Welker, and he already has experience in this system--which is the biggest positive yet. Our worry is that he won't be able to "get on the same page with Brady as Welker was," but that's nothing but pure speculation. Amendola's already replaced Welker once down at Texas Tech, and he improved upon Welker's senior season, so this isn't his first go 'round in this situation. Brady and Belichick are going to give him similar numbers of targets as they likely did Welker, so the production worry may not be as different as you think.

On top of that the ultimate choice was to go with Amendola and Edelman over Welker...while I do feel nostalgic about Wes' time here, it's a done deal made by one of the greatest HC's of all time. That's a decision that's been made. When you look at the "rest" of last season's pathetic WR grouping of Llyod, Edelman, and Branch--you can see why I feel it may be a tad overrated.

We're choosing to go with Amendola, Edelman, Jones/Jenkins (one or the other in my opinion, much more likely Jones), one of the top 2-3-4 WRs in the entire draft, and probably some type of veteran/camp or cap casualty. Life will go on. Brady/Belichick will work them hard both in film and playbook, because that's what they do here. It's the next man up.

We still have not much change to our top 3 receiving options, a very good dedication to the running game, and even the potential to improve on last yr's WR3 and WR4.