I Would Still Like To Add.....

[Ring 6]

If you say so. Check again.I referred to the playoffs and SB. Koppen, Faulk Dwoling weren't there. I am not buying it Andy.Welker was a Trade.
I don't really understand what you are talking about?
DW Toys

Kind of simple. You tried to claim the team that went to the SB lacked talent and somehow got there with smoke and mirrors.

You tried to say they were built with the draft, and I listed a bunch of the draft choices and stated that I bet you would be hard pressed to find a team that has a better collection of drafted talent on it.

Welker was traded for a draft pick. You can't question why there isn't a player contributing from that draft pick and pretend Welker isn't here.

 

[Ring 6]

OK, OK I see what I did. That was suppose to say defense not offense. Sorry. I stand corrected.
DW Toys

I'm talking about the entire team. No team is built in halves.

 

[mgteich]

We agree. Perhaps we are agree on all our 4 top needs.

In fact, DE is two needs. We need a DE who slides to DT on subpackages, and we need a DE who is an outside pass-rusher.

I believe our other top 3 need is at safety.

Finally, we "need" an impact pass-rushing OLB. Doesn't everyone?

OK. I agree DT is not a need, other than the 34 DE who slides to DT in sub pacakges, but DE is a need, as in my OP.

 

[ATippett56]

We agree. Perhaps we are agree on all our 4 top needs.

In fact, DE is two needs. We need a DE who slides to DT on subpackages, and we need a DE who is an outside pass-rusher.

I believe our other top 3 need is at safety.

Finally, we "need" an impact pass-rushing OLB. Doesn't everyone?

At #27 or #31: Devon Still, DT Penn State or Kendall Reyes, DT Connecticut

NFL Draft - 2012 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

#48: Vinny Curry, DE/OLB Marshall

NFL Draft - 2012 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

 

[patfanken]

Toys, when you "trade" for a draft pick, then it is absolutely fair to count that player (for better or worse) as use of a pick. You can't get around it. Let me put it another way. When is a trade, not a trade? When it's for a draft pick.

As for my FA hopes - BTW the Jets cap guy has us having over $12MM in cap space after the latest signing

1. would be a healthy Andre Carter in June.
2. And additional FS, or perhaps a CB disguised as a S. I'm OK with Steve Gregory. He might even be a starter. Its a start and vast upgrade over what is there now. But I'd rather have another guy there of equal repute to compete for the job. Who knows maybe the FS of my dreams is still already on the roster and I just don't know it.
3. Manny Lawson - He is my "Rob Ninkovich of this season - He has all the physical skills to be a good pass rusher and he already covers and sets the edge pretty well.
4. a big thumping FA RB who can assume the SY/GL role

My Draft hopes are becoming less impactful all the time as I see needs deftly filled by FA's and returning injured players But I do have a few areas of want for the coming seasons beyond 2013

1. Steven Gilmore or Mark Barron -

I'm warming to Barron who I get the feeling isn't just a stiff in coverage. The Pats S's rarely play strictly FS/SS roles. I like Barrett's potential, but it wouldn't hurt to have a back up plan, - Gilmore might be the guy who can come in right away and play a hybrid CB/FS role and contribute right away. Gilmore is my first choice because he's the fast athlete and position flexibility.

2. Fletcher Cox or Marcilus- I'm afraid that Cox will be gone, but he is exactly what the Pats need and could play a big part as a pass rushing DT in a 4-3 alignment or a pocket pushing DE in a 3-4 - Marcilus could be the Andre Carter in training, is more likely to be there, and could help in spots this year.

If we hit any 2 of those 4 players I will be in hog heaven. Other picks that I would hate to see come up with any of the next 3 picks are:

Trumaine Johnson CB/S
Markell Martin FS
Andre Branch DE/OLB
Vin Curry DE/OLB
McClellan OLB

What I DO NOT want to see with any of the first 5 picks are any WR's RB's or ILB's - If we get any picks after the first 4 rounds, then pick all you want.

 

[mgteich]

A) I like to use patriots sources when I can.

New England Patriots 2012 Salary Cap

This site has a total of $11.4. Add two for Johnson's restructure and we are at $13.4 M. In any case, small difference should matter little. What may be useful is for us (or not) to tend to us the same site as we did when our patriot source was Miguel.

B) You wish list seems reasonable. Lawson has always seemed a bit light for us.
Warren is possible in June also, although he will be unnecessary with our 3 new front seven players, drafted in the first 3 rounds.

.

As for my FA hopes - BTW the Jets cap guy has us having over $12MM in cap space after the latest signing

1. would be a healthy Andre Carter in June.

2. And additional FS, or perhaps a CB disguised as a S. I'm OK with Steve Gregory. He might even be a starter. Its a start and vast upgrade over what is there now. But I'd rather have another guy there of equal repute to compete for the job. Who knows maybe the FS of my dreams is still already on the roster and I just don't know it.

3. Manny Lawson - He is my "Rob Ninkovich of this season - He has all the physical skills to be a good pass rusher and he already covers and sets the edge pretty well.

4. a big thumping FA RB who can assume the SY/GL role

 

[supafly]

OK. I agree DT is not a need, other than the 34 DE who slides to DT in sub pacakges, but DE is a need, as in my OP.

In my opinion, the depth and talent can be improved upon so much that it's probably good enough to take a very early pick if the right guy is there.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest bit if the Pats first or second overall pick (whatever actual number that may end up being) is a DT.

I agree with you that it's pretty obvious what our actual 'needs' are, as the positions are the obvious choices of DE/OLB/S; but an interior DL may be a very good pick early too.

 

[supafly]

As for my FA hopes - BTW the Jets cap guy has us having over $12MM in cap space after the latest signing

1. would be a healthy Andre Carter in June.
2. And additional FS, or perhaps a CB disguised as a S. I'm OK with Steve Gregory. He might even be a starter. Its a start and vast upgrade over what is there now. But I'd rather have another guy there of equal repute to compete for the job. Who knows maybe the FS of my dreams is still already on the roster and I just don't know it.
3. Manny Lawson - He is my "Rob Ninkovich of this season - He has all the physical skills to be a good pass rusher and he already covers and sets the edge pretty well.
4. a big thumping FA RB who can assume the SY/GL role

We may very well end up having 3 out of your 4 wishes already taken care of, although that would be assuming that A.Carter will be healthy enough to return in 4-5 months. I don't find this to be a stretch though, it's at least a reasonable thought.

The FS position may be upgraded exactly how you describe it...in house (or through the signing of Allen). We just don't know what Belichick envisions, but we do know that we have versatile CB's that are currently on the roster. Regardless, there will probably still be an addition of some sort. I think one of the keys to being in a better position already is that there are more options, and improved talent than the majority of last yr. The addition in talent may provide more options for moving parts around until the desired result is achieved. The secondary is not as big of a problem in my eyes, as it is in many others.

And finally the 'big thumping RB' for SY/GL situations may also have been added already too. If not, I would bet anything that a reasonable back for very low price/fair price can still be added, and will.

All that leaves is the addressing of the LB on your wishlist, and the prospect of Lawson does sound obvious to many of us, but apperently Belichick does not think too highly of him. He passed on him initially in the draft, and he has not made the slightest effort to do much in regards of giving him a look since then. Hopefully LB will be addressed via FA + the draft still, as it is a moderate need IMO.

 

[DW Toys]

Toys, when you "trade" for a draft pick, then it is absolutely fair to count that player (for better or worse) as use of a pick. You can't get around it. Let me put it another way. When is a trade, not a trade? When it's for a draft pick.

As for my FA hopes - BTW the Jets cap guy has us having over $12MM in cap space after the latest signing

1. would be a healthy Andre Carter in June.
2. And additional FS, or perhaps a CB disguised as a S. I'm OK with Steve Gregory. He might even be a starter. Its a start and vast upgrade over what is there now. But I'd rather have another guy there of equal repute to compete for the job. Who knows maybe the FS of my dreams is still already on the roster and I just don't know it.
3. Manny Lawson - He is my "Rob Ninkovich of this season - He has all the physical skills to be a good pass rusher and he already covers and sets the edge pretty well.
4. a big thumping FA RB who can assume the SY/GL role

My Draft hopes are becoming less impactful all the time as I see needs deftly filled by FA's and returning injured players But I do have a few areas of want for the coming seasons beyond 2013

1. Steven Gilmore or Mark Barron -

I'm warming to Barron who I get the feeling isn't just a stiff in coverage. The Pats S's rarely play strictly FS/SS roles. I like Barrett's potential, but it wouldn't hurt to have a back up plan, - Gilmore might be the guy who can come in right away and play a hybrid CB/FS role and contribute right away. Gilmore is my first choice because he's the fast athlete and position flexibility.

2. Fletcher Cox or Marcilus- I'm afraid that Cox will be gone, but he is exactly what the Pats need and could play a big part as a pass rushing DT in a 4-3 alignment or a pocket pushing DE in a 3-4 - Marcilus could be the Andre Carter in training, is more likely to be there, and could help in spots this year.

If we hit any 2 of those 4 players I will be in hog heaven. Other picks that I would hate to see come up with any of the next 3 picks are:

Trumaine Johnson CB/S
Markell Martin FS
Andre Branch DE/OLB
Vin Curry DE/OLB
McClellan OLB

What I DO NOT want to see with any of the first 5 picks are any WR's RB's or ILB's - If we get any picks after the first 4 rounds, then pick all you want.

You mirror the personnel I would like to see added as the thread states. I am more locked in on Mercilius at your .2 though.
I think Vin Curry is the talent that makes is forget about Anderson or at least one can hope.
I saw some about Gilmore last evening and I agree. He has speed, size and is a ball hawk. He can play S and slot CB and compliment Chung who is not the best in coverage.
I agree on Lawson very underrated. Has pass rush talent but never used that way (10.5 sacks his senior season) and speed. Can cover well.

I was thinking out loud about has any Team ever drafted a who selection of star players from one school? Would a Team who has many high picks who is sick and tired of trading down for weaker talent ever considered the move? You know the type. The GM/Coach who for years has Drafted for quantity over quality?

One School, one NFL Team Draft. Up to 4 players

Rules: Two rounds(Patriots 27,31,48,63) and use rounds three and four to move up if necessary:

2012-All Alabama front of Draft

#27 Barron S

#31 Upshaw DE

#48 Kirkpatrick (who seems to be dropping some) CB

#63 Josh Chapman DT

Perhaps dramatically change that. Swap Vereen or Ridley and the #27 pick and perhaps our fourth to move up for Richardson if the Team thought he was that special.

2012-All South Carolina front of Draft:

#27 + #63 for to move up for Mel Ingram DE/OLB near to ten. Add#126 if needed.

#31 Gilmore CB/S

#48 Jeffrey WR

#93 Antonio Allen SS

2012-All Boise Draft:

Swap out of #27 to say Seahawks for their second #43 and third #75 (same points value).
Swap out of #31 for a 2013 first rounder which you already know BB is going to do , and get another third from say Cleveland for their #67, who might take a shot at QB Weeden.

#43 for Doug Martin RB (swap one of our two kids for later picks or keep all three as we are down a RB anyway). 2nd rated RB in the Draft. Very Rice like. 222lbs.

#48 for Shea McClellin (Patriots type of kid OLB/DE can rush the QB. Very quick and smart at combine)

#63 Billy Winn DE Very underrated. Powerful pass rusher 4.82 pro day. Former wrestler BB likes

#67 George Iloka FS 6'4" and 225 actually played some CB for Boise.

2012-All North Carolina front part of the Draft

#27 and #31 to move forward to get DE Couples.He might be special.

#48 Zack Brown your new Patriot FS with a hand time 4.29 40 speed and on the UNC school record 60 meter track Team. Plays all over the field. Has superb instinct and ball skills. Best at coverage. Why not a Safety? Revolutionizes the NFL as a LT type impact BB invention.

#63 Dwight Jones WR 6'3" AND 215lbs. 85 receptions 12 TDs. Tate wasn't even close as a UNC WR. 4.55 speed. Late 2nd to third is about right.

Anyone else see another group from one college?

We are all board waiting for something to happen with the Pats anyway

DW Toys

 

[Ivan]

Then he will trade those picks for a plethora of fourth or fifth rounders. That has been a failure BB. Time for a change in philosophy.

How many years will he keep trying this?
DW Toys

Gee, i don't know, as many as the philosophy keeps the team at the top of the league every season.


There's a reason many Patriot fans believe in and support this team, it's because they are always really good and always in the hunt for the Super bowl, un like every other team in the league, and the morons who keep calling people "kool-aid drinkers" are really just idiot fans who think anything short of actually winning the Super Bowl is abject failure, which is more likely to reflect upon who they are than the Patriots.

The truth is that the Patriots draft as well or better than any team in football, and those who refuse to recognize that even though it has been completely documented are in denial because Belcichik doesn't draft their binkies and that upsets their faux GM egos.

 

[Kontradiction]

If Pryor is healthy I'm not seeing a huge need for another interior pass rusher. He and Fanene next to each other in sub-packages would create headaches for any interior OL. Ultimately, the Pats should be targeting DE/OLB early on (take your pick) and secondary (CB, Safety) shortly after. If BB sees someone he likes earlier than we're slated to draft in the first, I would hope he moves up instead of trading out of the first round (assuming the compensation wouldn't be a killer). The Patriots have plenty of ammo to do that this year while still being able to fill out needs in the secondary, at WR, and at RB.

 

[Dragda]

I don't see DT as as big a need. We have that interior rusher in the sub package on the roster already: Pryor. He's good. Good enough to start next to Wilfork if we go with a four man line. I haven't seen Fanenee in the Pats system, but I have seen enough of Pryor to be confident. I don't think we can upgrade him in FA with anything that's out there now.

We still need to replace Andre Carter, but I think he comes back to us. Most teams have spent their money in FA so I don't think he gets a big payday being injured. He will likely come on for a modest one or two year deal at the beginning of TC.

We should always draft a good DL if he's sitting there when we pick.

Our biggest need is the defensive backfield, but we could use better depth at linebacker so Koutavides and Tracy White can stick to ST.

 

[Ring 6]

If Pryor is healthy I'm not seeing a huge need for another interior pass rusher. He and Fanene next to each other in sub-packages would create headaches for any interior OL. Ultimately, the Pats should be targeting DE/OLB early on (take your pick) and secondary (CB, Safety) shortly after. If BB sees someone he likes earlier than we're slated to draft in the first, I would hope he moves up instead of trading out of the first round (assuming the compensation wouldn't be a killer). The Patriots have plenty of ammo to do that this year while still being able to fill out needs in the secondary, at WR, and at RB.

Pryor in his career has no full sacks and 2 half sacks.
I can't feel comfortable relying on him as a primary inside rusher.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Can someone explain why so many people think we're going to pick a DT early? I thought we were fine there, especially compared to OLB/DE and cover safety.

You take them when you can get them, and this year there may be a few that fall to us.

I too think the LBs are now OK. But good ones will fall to us after a long drought. I think Belichick will draft one, as they have been as scarce as hens' teeth lately.

People forget just how long it takes to make a LB. Brusci took 6 years, Vrabel 4 or 5, Ninkovitch 5, and Mincey 6, Anderson 7, and Carter 5, and I'd wager Cunningham will only start to show now in his 4th, and Spinks in his 3rd, and be even better in 2013-14.

It would seem that we have lost Pass Rush with Mark Anderson gone, and Carter recovering and unsigned. Carter may return, but Fanene and Scott can both garner a half dozen or more each, replacing both Anderson's production and some of Andre Carters too, which may fall off some with his return from injury.

Don't ignore Mo Pryor's return or discount his interior rushing ability either, or the developing ability of the ILB delayed pass rush which started to show itself last year. The Pass Rush will probably garner 40 or so sacks/season, just like last season, but it will come from lots of more places, even more encouragingly.

People are so used to criticisng the Pats for no Pass Rush, that no one noticed that the sacks/season had returned to Superbowl levels at the low 40s levels, lst year. But they did. Merely to reproduce last year's sack rating should be really possible just from the current FA signings. Anything more from the Draft would be pure gravy.

Everyone bemoans the Safety situation, but it can't be worse. We played for more then half a season with zero experienced Safeties, and survived well enough to go to the Superbowl. Chung's presence along with Gregory and Alles coming here and the development of Edelmen and Moore will likely close that problem, not to ProBowl levels, but adequately.

I personally would feel very comfortable without a Draft, merely on the basis of the present FA signings, and two more, Welker and Carter.

 

[DW Toys]

Gee, i don't know, as many as the philosophy keeps the team at the top of the league every season.


There's a reason many Patriot fans believe in and support this team, it's because they are always really good and always in the hunt for the Super bowl, un like every other team in the league, and the morons who keep calling people "kool-aid drinkers" are really just idiot fans who think anything short of actually winning the Super Bowl is abject failure, which is more likely to reflect upon who they are than the Patriots.

The truth is that the Patriots draft as well or better than any team in football, and those who refuse to recognize that even though it has been completely documented are in denial because Belcichik doesn't draft their binkies and that upsets their faux GM egos.

A lot of what you said is true. It is the Coach that makes the players her not the other way around. His Draft record other than one quality year has been mediocre, nobody denies that. It is his ability to get more out of inferior players or injured or even "talent dormant" ones like Vrable (new term!).
Think of it this way and you will get my point. No one is arguing he is not successful. Perhaps the best coach ever. We are also very spoiled here......but......that being said, he makes it harder on himself when he deal with quantity rather than quality.

My faux GM status would say that seeing what the results have been on this trading down stuff and it has been well documented as mixed results at best. He is better at trades, FA, and UDFA pick ups. My GM question would be ..........Bill, would it not be easier to Coach up a higher Draft pick with more starting talent, than to take four or five kids that won't make the grade and are sow's ear talent and force feed them to be NFL ready? Doesn't it take less agita to work with talent?

That's all I am saying.

As example, I am sure that even though Cannon had some high Draft placement prior to his illness, he did not have as much talent as Solder. Wasn't Solder easier to coach than Cannon? (example), Was not Dowling easier to Coach than Malcomb whatsisname as a DB?

DW Toys

 

[Ring 6]

Bill, would it not be easier to Coach up a higher Draft pick with more starting talent, than to take four or five kids that won't make the grade and are sow's ear talent and force feed them to be NFL ready? Doesn't it take less agita to work with talent?

DW Toys

Your argument makes sense but the facts you base it on are all screwed up.
You make a convincing argument that trade a first round pick for 4 4ths is a terrible idea.
BB has never done that.
What he DOES DO is trade down a few spots, and adds additional picks by doing it.
When he does it, it is either because the best players available do not fit need, or the system or for some reason are not a good fit, or he sees as much value 3,9, or 12 spots down as where he is. Many times he trades down and picks the same player he would have if he didn't move down.

You have a foolproof argument going on but it isn't the argument that fits the facts of what has happened.

 

[Arrington Planet]

I'm not sure our inside pass rush can rely on a guy who has missed 21 games the last two seasons, we can imply that he's good and will come back without any problems, but I'd feel more comfortable if we added competition here.

 

[supafly]

I'm not sure our inside pass rush can rely on a guy who has missed 21 games the last two seasons, we can imply that he's good and will come back without any problems, but I'd feel more comfortable if we added competition here.

I'm a big fan of Pryor too, and I think he's got some decent potential here.

I also agree with your thoughts that as of now, he hasn't really shown enough, if even the ability to stay healthy for us to actually assume that he'll be a productive force on the line.

I think we go through this every single year....there are many who say "but we don't NEED that particular position as much as others," (like in the case of DT in this thread).

As we've seen many times, it's not always how Belichick perceives 'need,' it's often about getting the best talent that available to you with that particular pick---at a position that you can use him for, of course. DT is certainly one of those positions that if the right guy is there early, Belichick may very well take him; even though we need DE/OLB and S more.

 

[supafly]

Everyone bemoans the Safety situation, but it can't be worse. We played for more then half a season with zero experienced Safeties, and survived well enough to go to the Superbowl. Chung's presence along with Gregory and Alles coming here and the development of Edelmen and Moore will likely close that problem, not to ProBowl levels, but adequately.

I agree, and it's quite possible that we're all having this discussion again in about a month, when the draft has completed.

There's probably just as good of a chance that safety is not taken in the first 3-4 rounds as there is that a safety IS taken. Everyone will disagree and the board will go nuts, much like last year after the lack of the DE/OLB picks that everyone assumed, but there are other positions that Belichick may feel need attending to more than safety--for the reasons that you listed above.

 

[DW Toys]

Your argument makes sense but the facts you base it on are all screwed up.
You make a convincing argument that trade a first round pick for 4 4ths is a terrible idea.
BB has never done that.
What he DOES DO is trade down a few spots, and adds additional picks by doing it.
When he does it, it is either because the best players available do not fit need, or the system or for some reason are not a good fit, or he sees as much value 3,9, or 12 spots down as where he is. Many times he trades down and picks the same player he would have if he didn't move down.

You have a foolproof argument going on but it isn't the argument that fits the facts of what has happened.

Thanks for the observations. Obviously I was exaggerating with the bunch of fourths, but his trading down stuff has not been a bonafide winner. That's why I suggested he might change his Drafting philosophy. Falls into the heading "Do your job." That is what he expects. Fair-play here.
DW Toys