How will the Front 6 look next season?

[supafly]

27 of our players currently under contract are dedicated to the defensive FRONT 7. That's very different than the defensive line.

Yes, certainly my mistake, although many of the defensive line spots will also be interchangable with LB spots, depending upon the looks, or where you'd consider the positions.

Not sure about the need for the 'confused face' as everyone is human, but to each his own.

The rest of the post was quite appropriate in my opinion.

Nice to see you back on the forum though, as I enjoy your posts.

 

[BTTA]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...front-7-look-next-year-page2.html#post3044851

Mayoclinic opined in the Front 7 thread that even though Spikes played creditably in sub packages, that wasn't likely to be a major use of him. That makes sense.

However, what about a 3-3-5, with 1 true DL, 2 LB/pass rusher types with their hands down, and 3 true LBs? You might well want a Spikes-quality ILB then to make up for the lack of beef otherwise.

The front seven thread was about next year. That's a hundred years in football terms. For this season, I think this makes sense. By next year, I would expect the team to plan for a decline in Wilfork's production and take action to shore up the middle beef.

 

[mayoclinic]

Yes, certainly my mistake, although many of the defensive line spots will also be interchangable with LB spots, depending upon the looks, or where you'd consider the positions.

Not sure about the need for the 'confused face' as everyone is human, but to each his own.

The rest of the post was quite appropriate in my opinion.

Nice to see you back on the forum though, as I enjoy your posts.

Thanks.

The confused face was just to indicate what I said - that you confused DL with front 7. I agree your post was appropriate, and I wasn't trying to be critical at all.

 

[jsull87]

I'd say it would generally look like.

4-2

C.Jones Fanene Wilfork Hightower/Bequette

. Mayo Fletcher

3-3

. C.Jones/Bequette Wilfork/Fanene Warren/Ninko/Hightower

. Mayo Fletcher/Spikes Hightower/Ninko

 

[MalaysiaPatsFan]

I certainly hope the rookies can contribute significantly even this year. However, Trevor Scott appears to be a forgotten man in these discussions. Doesn't anyone expect him to be a major contributor? His experience (even if it isn't with BB's schemes) may give him an initial edge over the rookies.

We have so many 6'3" - 6'5", 250 - 280 guys on the roster that I am really looking forward to that camp competition even more so than the WR competition.

 

[supafly]

We have so many 6'3" - 6'5", 250 - 280 guys on the roster that I am really looking forward to that camp competition even more so than the WR competition.

I agree. The defensive front seven competition should be great.

I am certainly curious to see the potential of guys like Scott, Fanane, and the rookies.

It will also answer some questions about the status of guys like Cunningham, M.Carter, (well, both Carters to be honest), Brace, Pryor...the list goes on.

Hopefully the depth will be increased, as will the talent in the front seven; for I feel that the secondary will be in a much better position this year.

 

[Marqui]

I certainly hope the rookies can contribute significantly even this year. However, Trevor Scott appears to be a forgotten man in these discussions. Doesn't anyone expect him to be a major contributor? His experience (even if it isn't with BB's schemes) may give him an initial edge over the rookies.

I think there's a great chance Scott is this year's Anderson, except with more versatility. He's already played both DE and linebacker earlier in his career before he got injured. If he's healthy, not only should he make the team but he could be heavily featured in the rotation playing 4-3 DE, 4-3 OLB, and 3-4 OLB positions.

 

[VJCPatriot]

In the nickel you generally want your LBs to be faster. Mayo is an obvious choice but the spot next to him in the nickel could be Tracy White or Jeff Tarpinian, at least on third downs anyway.

PS: a "4-1-6" nickel is called a dime

I think with Mayo and Hightower you'd have all the speed you'd need at LB for the 4-2-5. Mayo has sideline to sideline range and Hightower is more athletic and rangy than Spikes. As for their coverage skills. I can't speak for that yet. Let's see how they look in camp. Who was our usual coverage LBer last season?

 

[mayoclinic]

We have so many 6'3" - 6'5", 250 - 280 guys on the roster that I am really looking forward to that camp competition even more so than the WR competition.

From Mike Reiss' chat today:

James (Derry, NH): Hi Mike, we all know that the NFL is a copycat league. The Patriots have a lot young speedy athletic DE/OLB, with that in mind could we see BB take a page out his old friend Tom Coughlin's play book and unleash a Patriots version of the "Nascar Front" that the Giants use? Some combination of Jones, Bequette, Scott, M. Cater, A. Carter(assuming he resigns), and Cunningham getting after the QB could generate some serious pressure.

Mike Reiss (12:24 PM): Yes, yes, yes. James, I think this is one of the big stories of the team's offseason. Bill Belichick acknowledged that more of the game is being played in space and that the D is not in its base 3-4 as much as it used to be. So you need a different type of player -- 250-275 pounds, a little faster, a little longer -- because you're in a sub almost 65-70 percent of the time (according to Nick Caserio). This is a significant shift, IMO, in how BB has viewed and valued defense/defensive personnel in recent years.

Chat: Chat with Mike Reiss - SportsNation - ESPN Boston

The other guy who I think is being overlooked is DE/DT Jonathan Fanene. I think he'll fit in where the Pats tried to use Shaun Ellis last year. He can essentially play inside our out in 4-3 and 4-2-5 schemes, and outside in 3-4 and 3-3-5 schemes. He could probably even play standing up occasionally, though not on a regular basis. Eric Mangini wrote last year that the Jets used Ellis in that kind of role very effectively:

Eric Mangini -- Shaun Ellis 'really good signing' for New England Patriots - ESPN Boston

Ellis just didn't have enough left in the tank last year, but Fanene offers similar versatility.

 

[mayoclinic]

Doug Kyed of NE Patriots' Draft discusses how Chandler Jones may fit into the defense:

When the Patriots traded up to draft former Syracuse DE Chandler Jones, I was neither surprised nor overly excited. From what I saw on tape, I don’t think that he’s a perfect fit for the defense. Yet.

Despite glowing combine workout numbers, his change of direction not only didn’t flash on tape, it looked like a weakness. He was rarely asked to stand up, either in pass coverage or in rushing the passer, and when he was playing in space, he played with his pad level far too high and looked awkward at times running.

But Jones was also struggling with a knee injury all last season, which obviously could have affected his mobility. His stellar workout numbers, especially in the 3 cone tell me that the knee injury could have been affecting him more than we could have thought.

With the concerns I have regarding Jones, I don’t see him starting early in his NFL career. If the Patriots played a straight 4-3, rather than a hybrid 3-4/4-3, he could likely start at DE, but the Patriots have an interesting alignment. They essentially play a 3-man front with two 5-techs and a 1-tech, last year it was Love/Wilfork at 1-tech, and Wilfork, Shaun Ellis and Brandon Deaderick at 5-tech. Then they have a 7-tech/OLB next to Wilfork on the weak side. Last year that position was played by Andre Carter/Mark Anderson once Carter went down/in sub packages.

With Carter unsigned and injured and Anderson gone to Buffalo, I expect the Patriots to employ a rotation at that “elephant” position this season. Jones could eventually fill that role, but he’s not experienced enough yet in dropping back into coverage or rushing standing up. His strengths are his length, his natural strength, his run defense and his interior rush. I think that Jones will likely play in four man front sub packages on the strong side and in the base defense when that 7-tech/elephant will have his hand on the ground.

Jones could either morph into a great elephant, but if the Patriots don’t see that upside, he could also pack weight onto his frame and become a dominant 5-tech filling that Shaun Ellis/Brandon Deaderick role from last season. Jones weighed in at 266 at the combine this season and has a frame that looks like it could easily add weight. Ellis played that 5-tech/7-tech position at just 290 last season, so Jones really needs to add just 25 pounds to have a legitimate shot at playing strong side DE/5-tech.

Obviously it’s not reasonable to expect Jones to add that much weight in one off-season, and I’m not saying that’s definitely going to be his career path, but like many players that the Patriots bring in, Jones has versatility and if he’s not showing enough growth as an elephant this season, he could transition into a stellar interior rusher.

Jones wasn’t my favorite player the Patriots brought in during the draft, but he could very well wind up being the best player the Pats drafted.

NEPD Mailbag: Chandler Jones Edition | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

 

[Marqui]

I think Kyed is a little off on his assessment of Jones. Belichick in an interview on Sirius straight up said Jones is a perimeter "end of the line player". I think there's zero chance he ends up as a full-time 5 tech and will be a DE/OLB only. And the Patriots wouldn't have traded up for him in the first round if they "didn't see that upside" in Jones.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think Kyed is a little off on his assessment of Jones. Belichick in an interview on Sirius straight up said Jones is a perimeter "end of the line player". I think there's zero chance he ends up as a full-time 5 tech and will be a DE/OLB only. And the Patriots wouldn't have traded up for him in the first round if they "didn't see that upside" in Jones.

I completely agree. I think Kyed's struggling trying to fit new players into old paradigms.

As I mentioned a few days ago, I do think that there is a role for the kind of player that Shaun Ellis used to be - a 285-290# guy with the ability to shift inside to DT, play the 5-tech and 7-tech, and occasionally even stand up. Not a classical "elephant", but definitely a hybrid DL of sorts. That's the kind of role I envisioned Cameron Jordan being able to play. But I think that the guy who may be capable of doing most of that is not Jones, but rather Jonathan Fanene - I'm not so sure if Fanene can stand up and drop into coverage, but he can certainly do the rest of it. And that seems to be how Kyed sees Fanene, too:

2012 Free Agency: Jonathan Fanene | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

I see Jones as a different beast altogether, a pure DE/OLB, as you put it. He's strong enough that he could be moved inside once in a while, especially if the Pats use some kind of NASCAR package. But that would be relatively rare. I think that it would be a relative waste to try to "convert" Jones to a classic 5-tech player. If that's what the Pats wanted, they could have gotten any number of prospects in the last 2 drafts with a much short developmental timecourse. They wanted something very different.

 

[VJCPatriot]

To put it simply, I believe that BB drafted Jones to be a passrusher. Whether that's at rush end in a 4 man front, or blitzing OLB when we go to a classic 3-4 base, remains yet to be seen. But he will see the field in those types of situations. Chandler Jones also has the prototypical build that BB has SAID HIMSELF that he is looking for - an athletic freak about 6-4 to 6-6 in height with 4.6-4.8 speed along with agility who can get after the QB and disrupt the passing game that is now the staple of the NFL game.

I also don't see the point of trying to bulk up Chandler Jones to 290 lbs and turning him into a stout run-stop first defensive end. Chandler Jones is not a Seymour replacement, his job is to get up the field, create pressure, make plays and hopefully cause some fumbles, turnovers, ints, rushed throws, sacks, etc. IE make impact plays.

Chandler Jones to me is a scalphunter, a lethal anti-QB weapon. Hightower to me is the all-around LBer. I could see him playing a McGinest type elephant role and moving all around on our D. Both project to be impact players to me.

The only question is how long will it take for them to get up to speed in BB's new D. Patricia also has the keys to the car. So I am excited to see the playcalling and packages that the Pats use in 2012 with these versatile new weapons at LB/Rush end.

I completely agree. I think Kyed's struggling trying to fit new players into old paradigms.

As I mentioned a few days ago, I do think that there is a role for the kind of player that Shaun Ellis used to be - a 285-290# guy with the ability to shift inside to DT, play the 5-tech and 7-tech, and occasionally even stand up. Not a classical "elephant", but definitely a hybrid DL of sorts. That's the kind of role I envisioned Cameron Jordan being able to play. But I think that the guy who may be capable of doing most of that is not Jones, but rather Jonathan Fanene - I'm not so sure if Fanene can stand up and drop into coverage, but he can certainly do the rest of it. And that seems to be how Kyed sees Fanene, too:

2012 Free Agency: Jonathan Fanene | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

I see Jones as a different beast altogether, a pure DE/OLB, as you put it. He's strong enough that he could be moved inside once in a while, especially if the Pats use some kind of NASCAR package. But that would be relatively rare. I think that it would be a relative waste to try to "convert" Jones to a classic 5-tech player. If that's what the Pats wanted, they could have gotten any number of prospects in the last 2 drafts with a much short developmental timecourse. They wanted something very different.

 

[Fencer]

BB will try anything for a twist. Kyle Arrington lined up at DE. Mike Vrabel lined up at NT. Tom Brady lined up at WR.

But I think it's right that Jones is seen as an outside-rushing player, who with rare exceptions only comes inside on stunts, or to punish personnel groupings that over-commit to stopping the outside rush.

 

[supafly]

I think that it would be a relative waste to try to "convert" Jones to a classic 5-tech player. If that's what the Pats wanted, they could have gotten any number of prospects in the last 2 drafts with a much short developmental timecourse. They wanted something very different.

I think this statement is spot on.

From the article it seemed for a minute there that the description was of Ty Warren on the other side

As you said, there were any number of players who could have fit that mold in the first 2-3 rounds in the past couple of yrs; probably many in this yr's draft alone.

 

[mayoclinic]

As you said, there were any number of players who could have fit that mold in the first 2-3 rounds in the past couple of yrs; probably many in this yr's draft alone.

Derek Wolfe and Kendall Reyes come to mind. Both decent prospects, but the Pats seem to be looking for something entirely different.

 

[Fencer]

Actually, isn't Jones suited for 5-technique?

What he's not suited for is I-say-5-but-I-mean-4, which is the classic 3-4 DE position.

 

[supafly]

Actually, isn't Jones suited for 5-technique?

What he's not suited for is I-say-5-but-I-mean-4, which is the classic 3-4 DE position.

I think it's still yet to be determined, Fencer. I certainly trust that Belichick and his staff will properly assess Jones, try him in different scenarios/packages, see what's needed for the team itself, and then make that determination.

His versatility and athleticism would point to him being used in the "7-tech" elephant role, or at least that's the thought from many here due to Belichick's passing on plenty of decent prospects who could have been space eaters/run stoppers at a much lesser price in a lower round.

However, I also believe that you are correct on some level too. He very well may be used as the typical 3-4 "5 tech" depending upon some other various factors such as his on the field play in different scenarios, whether or not he lives up to his challenges with versatility, the needs of the team itself, etc.

I think what mayoclinic is saying is that it would be somewhat of a waste to at least NOT try him at the more athletic pass-rushing + versatile role, seeing as how he has good size and measurables, and we moved up to get him in the first round etc.

Surely something to keep a close eye on though, and the eventual answer will probably not be totally 100% determined until sometime into the 2013 season, although of course I could be way off base too.

 

[mayoclinic]

Justin Smith was 6'4" 267# coming out of Missouri in 2001. He spent 7 years as a 4-3 DE for Cincinnati before being converted to a 5-tech, and is now probably the best in the NFL. It took a while, though. Jones has the frame and the strength to bulk up to 285# and to play the 5-tech, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him used that way on occasion. But it doesn't seem like the obvious way to go, at least at first.