Front Office Observation (or Not)

[jmt57]

Tom Brady is the greatest QB in NFL history there would no reason for the team with the best QB in a sport where the QB is the most significant player to have a losing season.

We played in one of the weakest divisions in the NFL over the past decade also.

I am not saying Belichick doesn't do a terrific job I am just saying that Brady makes it very difficult to have a losing season.

An urban myth that keeps getting repeated so often that it has become accepted as fact.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if I recall correctly the AFC East was was the 2nd or 3rd best division over that approximate time period, and only a couple of wins away from being the best division in the NFL.

Last year was admittedly a down year for the AFC East - and even though that was the case, the division was still better than the AFC North, AFC South, NFC East, NFC North and NFC South.

2013 Division Records:
42-22 -- NFC West -- (30-10 non-division record)
37-27 -- AFC West -- (25-15)
34-30 -- AFC East --- (22-18)
31-33 -- NFC South -- (19-21)
31-33 -- AFC North -- (19-21)
28-34-2 - NFC North - (17-23)
28-36 -- NFC East --- (16-24)
24-40 -- AFC South -- (12-28)

 

[kudzif]

An urban myth that keeps getting repeated so often that it has become accepted as fact.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if I recall correctly the AFC East was was the 2nd or 3rd best division over that approximate time period, and only a couple of wins away from being the best division in the NFL.

Last year was admittedly a down year for the AFC East - and even though that was the case, the division was still better than the AFC North, AFC South, NFC East, NFC North and NFC South.

2013 Division Records:
42-22 -- NFC West -- (30-10 non-division record)
37-27 -- AFC West -- (25-15)
34-30 -- AFC East --- (22-18)
31-33 -- NFC South -- (19-21)
31-33 -- AFC North -- (19-21)
28-34-2 - NFC North - (17-23)
28-36 -- NFC East --- (16-24)
24-40 -- AFC South -- (12-28)

Do you honestly believe that the division has not been pathetic over the last decade ? Bills, Jets , Dolphins really.

 

[Gumby]

Do you honestly believe that the division has not been pathetic over the last decade ? Bills, Jets , Dolphins really.

Do you really not believe that if the Patriots weren't so dominant and split their games with the other Div teams like happen in most divisions (4-2 or 3-3 instead of 6-0/5-1, or having a down year 2-4), that some of those "pathetic years" of jesters/fish might have been playoff years instead (one and done PO years, but PO years) ???

a bit unfair to use the Pats own success (at diminishing their closest opponents) as a measure of their being 'not so good'.

 

[PlainOldEd]

Do you know the %s from the other teams?

+1 :ditto:.......

 

[Ring 6]

Sorry I should have clarified... He has been in Belichicks ear... Was with him during the combine and is a trusted friend

Are you really suggesting that Bill Belichick has undergone a philosophical overhaul because he had a conversation with a guy he was considering as an assistant coach after he failed miserably, and gave a job to a guy who used to work for him and has been out of the league more than in it?
Do you think the CEO of Citicorp makes wholesale changes after having lunch with the cleaning lady?

 

[Ring 6]

I was really happy when I heard Belichick was bringing on an outside perspective in Lombardi. They needed it badly.

You are being sarcastic right?

 

[Brady6]

Do you know the %s from the other teams?

Not off hand, you could go through each teams draft history if you wanted to, I could really careless what every other team does, comparing your shortcomings to others shortcomings does not make your own any less impactful.

 

[ivanvamp]

Really?? "great"? Meh.. I love BB as much as anyone here, but I dunno if i'd classify his GM skills as great.

Belichick is a terrific GM. He's not flawless, but every single GM makes plenty of mistakes. Belichick tends to make more right decisions as a GM than most.

 

[Gumby]

The Patriots have drafted 54 players since 2008, 31 of them are no longer on the roster, for those of you playing at home that is 57% of the players selected. I labeled Vereen, Ridley, Collins, and Slater as a starter (despite that not really being the case) which gives us 13 starters that came out of the draft since 2008, that is 24% of our picks.

.....

in addition to not answering Bruins' question (without the context of other teams HOW DO YOU KNOW that 57% is BAD??? ),

ALSO your logic of how you are measuring is bogus.

If you are trying to measure their draft proficiency the measure is
NOT how many of their draftees are still on the team
but rather how many are still in the NFL

OR even
how many are STARTERS SOMEWHERE in the NFL.

OR possibly
how many were starters (at some point) or saw active time for the Patriots? (maybe GP per contract year)

But to go and pick them apart for the nature of NFL draft (that only X% make the roster or stay more than 1 year) & free-agency (that you cannot retain most guys more than 4 years) is a pretty silly argument; especially without any contextual comparison to their competitors.

 

[ivanvamp]

The Patriots have drafted 54 players since 2008, 31 of them are no longer on the roster, for those of you playing at home that is 57% of the players selected. I labeled Vereen, Ridley, Collins, and Slater as a starter (despite that not really being the case) which gives us 13 starters that came out of the draft since 2008, that is 24% of our picks.

- Jamie Collins-Starter
- Aaron Dobson-Starter
- Logan Ryan-2nd string
- Duron Harmon-2nd string
- Josh Boyce-3rd string
- Michael Buchanan-3rd string
- Steve Beauharnais-3rd string
- Chandler Jones-Starter
- Dont'a Hightower-Starter
- Tavon Wilson-3rd string
- Jake Bequette-3rd string
- Nate Ebner-3rd string
- Alfonzo Dennard-Starter
- Jeremy Ebert-Not on roster
- Nate Solder-Starter
- Ras-I Dowling-Not on roster
- Shane Vereen-Starter
- Stevan Ridley-Starter
- Ryan Mallett-2nd string
- Marcus Cannon-2nd string
- Lee Smith-Not on roster
- Markell Carter-Not on roster
- Malcolm Williams-Not on roster
- Devin McCourty-Starter
- Rob Gronkowski-Starter
- Jermaine Cunningham-Not on roster
- Brandon Spikes-Not on roster
- Taylor Price-Not on roster
- Aaron Hernandez-Not on roster
- Zoltan Mesko-Not on roster
- Ted Larsen-Not on roster
- Thomas Welch-Not on roster
- Brandon Deaderick-Not on roster
- Kade Weston-Not on roster
- Zac Robinson-Not on roster
- Patrick Chung-Not on roster
- Ron Brace-Not on roster
- Darius Butler-Not on roster
- Sebastian Vollmer-Starter
- Brandon Tate-Not on roster
- Tyrone McKenzie-Not on roster
- Rich Ohrnberger-Not on roster
- George Bussey-Not on roster
- Jake Ingram-Not on roster
- Myron Pryor-Not on roster
- Julian Edelman-TBD
- Darryl Richard-Not on roster
- Jerod Mayo-Starter
- Terrence Wheatley-Not on roster
- Shawn Crable-Not on roster
- Kevin O'Connell-Not on roster
- Jonathan Wilhite-Not on roster
- Matt Slater-Starter
- Bo Ruud-Not on roster

A couple of criticisms of this point. First, you haven't provided context. Two aspects of context: (1) The Patriots consistently have among the worst starting draft position every single year in the NFL because they are always so good. That puts them at a draft disadvantage every year. They have a higher degree of difficulty here. And (2) we don't know what the percentages are for other teams. So by itself, this information above is essentially useless.

And second, some of the guys not on the roster still gave contributions to the Patriots: Cunningham, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko, Deaderick, Brace, Butler… all of them. Some (Hernandez/Spikes/Mesko) gave tremendous contributions during their time here. But you list them as if them not being here is a strike against Belichick. Is the fact that Peyton Manning is no longer on Indy's roster a strike against Polian/Irsay?

 

[Brady6]

in addition to not answering Bruins' question (without the context of other teams HOW DO YOU KNOW that 57% is BAD??? ),

ALSO your logic of how you are measuring is bogus.

If you are trying to measure their draft proficiency the measure is
NOT how many of their draftees are still on the team
but rather how many are still in the NFL

OR even
how many are STARTERS SOMEWHERE in the NFL.

But to go and pick them apart for the nature of NFL free-agency (that you cannot retain most guys more than 4 years) is a pretty silly argument; especially without any contextual comparison to their competitors.

I provided the information, which is all; I did not say it was good or bad. You have determined on your own that it is poor. What I posted was a list of players, their roles, and status with the team. If you feel that it is bad than that is on you, and if you feel it is good that is also on you. If you would like to compare it to other teams to determine what it is, (good or bad) that is your choice but I am not going to do the legwork for you.

 

[Brady6]

A couple of criticisms of this point. First, you haven't provided context. Two aspects of context: (1) The Patriots consistently have among the worst starting draft position every single year in the NFL because they are always so good. That puts them at a draft disadvantage every year. They have a higher degree of difficulty here. And (2) we don't know what the percentages are for other teams. So by itself, this information above is essentially useless.

And second, some of the guys not on the roster still gave contributions to the Patriots: Cunningham, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko, Deaderick, Brace, Butler… all of them. Some (Hernandez/Spikes/Mesko) gave tremendous contributions during their time here. But you list them as if them not being here is a strike against Belichick. Is the fact that Peyton Manning is no longer on Indy's roster a strike against Polian/Irsay?

As I stated to the last poster, I provided a list of our draftees since 2008, I did not offer an opinion on what I thought of the results, and I only provided the results. If you feel the results are poor that is a conclusion you came to all on your own.

 

[Bruins29]

I did not offer an opinion on what I thought of the results, and I only provided the results. .

Really? Calling them "shortcomings" isnt your opinion of the results?

So what was it then? And what is your point?

 

[Bella*chick]

What were some of you like when this team couldn't make the playoffs?

Not born yet?

 

[1960Pats]

Do you know the %s from the other teams?

Give me a minute and I'll have those.

Okay, I went back the same time frame but I broke it up in halfs.

Team / Drafted 2011-13 / On Team / In NFL
Buff / 25 / 17 / 3
Mia / 22 / 18 / 3
NE / 22 / 18 / 2
NYJ / 21 / 18 / 2

Team / Drafted 2008-13 / On Team / In NFL
Buff / 52 / 25 / 10
Mia / 48 / 26 / 16
NE / 54 / 25 / 12
NYJ / 34 / 22 / 8

The numbers look fairly close for everyone. I like the Pats recent success considering they've drafted behind the rest of the AFCE

 

[Pats-Phan]

How did GB and Indy do when their qb's went down?

BB makes plenty of mistakes but make no mistake about it he brings in premium talent whether it be Mankins, Moss, Welker, Mayo, McCourty, Gronk, Talib, Revis and possibly Jones and/or Solder if either one can make a small leap this year.

The Patriots have drafted 54 players since 2008, 31 of them are no longer on the roster, for those of you playing at home that is 57% of the players selected. I labeled Vereen, Ridley, Collins, and Slater as a starter (despite that not really being the case) which gives us 13 starters that came out of the draft since 2008, that is 24% of our picks.

- Jamie Collins-Starter
- Aaron Dobson-Starter
- Logan Ryan-2nd string
- Duron Harmon-2nd string
- Josh Boyce-3rd string
- Michael Buchanan-3rd string
- Steve Beauharnais-3rd string
- Chandler Jones-Starter
- Dont'a Hightower-Starter
- Tavon Wilson-3rd string
- Jake Bequette-3rd string
- Nate Ebner-3rd string
- Alfonzo Dennard-Starter
- Jeremy Ebert-Not on roster
- Nate Solder-Starter
- Ras-I Dowling-Not on roster
- Shane Vereen-Starter
- Stevan Ridley-Starter
- Ryan Mallett-2nd string
- Marcus Cannon-2nd string
- Lee Smith-Not on roster
- Markell Carter-Not on roster
- Malcolm Williams-Not on roster
- Devin McCourty-Starter
- Rob Gronkowski-Starter
- Jermaine Cunningham-Not on roster
- Brandon Spikes-Not on roster
- Taylor Price-Not on roster
- Aaron Hernandez-Not on roster
- Zoltan Mesko-Not on roster
- Ted Larsen-Not on roster
- Thomas Welch-Not on roster
- Brandon Deaderick-Not on roster
- Kade Weston-Not on roster
- Zac Robinson-Not on roster
- Patrick Chung-Not on roster
- Ron Brace-Not on roster
- Darius Butler-Not on roster
- Sebastian Vollmer-Starter
- Brandon Tate-Not on roster
- Tyrone McKenzie-Not on roster
- Rich Ohrnberger-Not on roster
- George Bussey-Not on roster
- Jake Ingram-Not on roster
- Myron Pryor-Not on roster
- Julian Edelman-TBD
- Darryl Richard-Not on roster
- Jerod Mayo-Starter
- Terrence Wheatley-Not on roster
- Shawn Crable-Not on roster
- Kevin O'Connell-Not on roster
- Jonathan Wilhite-Not on roster
- Matt Slater-Starter
- Bo Ruud-Not on roster

I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. My point is it isn't Brady and a bunch of jags we have plenty of guys who are at the top 5-10 at their positions.

 

[Brady6]

I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. My point is it isn't Brady and a bunch of jags we have plenty of guys who are at the top 5-10 at their positions.

We started an UDFA at RB, WR, TE, OC, and RG last season. We could do a much better job putting talent around Brady and if you asked Belichick he would tell you the same thing I can assure you.

 

[Pats-Phan]

We started an UDFA at RB, WR, TE, OC, and RG last season. We could do a much better job putting talent around Brady and if you asked Belichick he would tell you the same thing I can assure you.

Every year you don't win the super bowl you could have done a better job of adding talent to your roster but that doesn't mean your gm isn't good.

"BB the gm screws over BB the coach" is a popular thing to say but frankly I don't buy it. IMO BB the coach is overrated and BB the gm is underrated. Barry freakin Switzer won a superbowl with a stacked roster. It's not like the Pats run some crazy exotic scheme that looks totally different from every other nfl team. At the end of the day the players have to play. Our results speak for themselves and the results say we have a very talented roster, regardless of qb.

 

[Brady6]

Every year you don't win the super bowl you could have done a better job of adding talent to your roster but that doesn't mean your gm isn't good.



"BB the gm screws over BB the coach" is a popular thing to say but frankly I don't buy it. IMO BB the coach is overrated and BB the gm is underrated. Barry freakin Switzer won a superbowl with a stacked roster. It's not like the Pats run some crazy exotic scheme that looks totally different from every other nfl team. At the end of the day the players have to play. Our results speak for themselves and the results say we have a very talented roster, regardless of qb.

I do not view Belichick as a bad GM I think he is very good. Over the past 4-5 years, he has been making some philosophical changes to his offensive and defensive approaches. Many players drafted in 08-11 do not fit his new way of thinking and that caused a lot of turnover.

Brace
Chung
Deaderick
Cunningham

Among others would be good examples of this. I think he is looking for something in particular at safety, and he may have it in Browner, he moved away from the enforcer type (Chung, etc.) and is focusing more on coverage, which led him down the road of a player like Tavon Wilson who played CB and safety in college.

When you are trying to reinvent yourself to some degree it is going to be trying and I think we have witnessed that in recent years as he makes these changes.

 

[Bruins29]

I said it is not a lot of effort, maybe you should stop by an apple store and pickup some technology.

I have a Iphone 5s and an Ipad mini. It will not make me post more than I deem necessary.