ESPN: Lombardi on Pats "starting price" for Cassel

[ALP]

This is a little off-topic, but I don't know that it got enough attention--Brees had an open receiver for the record on the last play of the season! Considering that there are few records in football people actually know (unlike baseball) this was a pretty big deal, really. And since I don't like Marino, I was kinda bummed he missed the throw.

pressure was too much, pass was horrendus...but then again, its why his name aint Tom brady

but as the annoucners said, he could have thrown underneath, and the guy would ave gotten the yds...teh defenders would have prob allowed him to get a sufficient number

 

[BelichickFan]

As an UFA (tagged or not) Cassel is looking at getting a big signing bonus in the spring. Why would he agree to pass up that type of coin for 17 weekly installments of a smaller amount?? A dollar in March is worth more than a dollar in September. All Lombardi just gave his guess at the parameters of the deal. It is this board who is saying that the deal has to be guaranteed salary (now mostly salary).

If Cassel were to take $22M guaranteed with $10M of it this year he could have a league minimum salary and a $9.5M roster bonus in May, or whenever, if he wanted the money early. The details aren't important, they can be worked out, the only issue for us to wonder about would be how much guaranteed money he would require in the second year to satisfy him that it's worth taking over the risk of "only" making $14.8M if he gets hurt and never gets another contract.

 

[AzPatsFan]

To be a successful QB in the NFL you are one of a select crew of people. You have to have great athletic talent in throwing a football.

If you are a successful QB you have to lead and inspire a group of 50 men. In the military that constantly scrutinizes for leadership, that equates to a line captain at least. Many a second lieutenant, commissioned as a leader is shunted off to other duties, if they can't LEAD men. Cassel seems to have passed that test. There was no complaining and backbiting in the locker room about the kid screwing up, and that he couldn't cut it. Even early in the season when it was obvious to all, he was feeling his way around. Team mates pitched in and helped as best they could. Intangibles and leadership bring that out.

You have to be extremely competitive, too. Some, when they lose the competition, pickup their marbles and go home. Like Gutz did transferring to Idaho State, from Michigan after getting passed by. OTOH, Brady fought for his job against the big time new comer at Michigan, and prevailed. Cassel lost out to Palmer, and Lienart, and even Brady, but he didn't quit. He still aspired to QB the NCAA National Champions at USC. Maybe Palmer or Lienhart would go down or turn bad. He stayed and he competed.

Now the stakes are higher. You can accept a trade to the Detroit Lions and start. You might and probably will get beat up. You might get injured and end your career. You will lose until the talent is better, and pay the price. The Lions 5 year plan can mature, and you can lead a rejuvenated Lions to winning season in 5 years.

Or you can gamble, and compete for higher stakes, the bigger prize. You can compete for the job as Patriots QB. It would be for the best or near best team in the League. Superbowl appearances. MVP possibilities. Winning seasons. Playoffs every year. If you win, you inherit the job as the QB of the building Juggernaut of a renewed dynastic football power.

Sure you're is going against the other guy, former MVP. But you have some cards of your own to play. The other guy is 6 years older, beginning the downside of his athletic career. He has maybe 4 more good years. You have ten years to go, and you haven't yet reached the mark to how good you will be. In a comparison of pure arm strength, you probably win. He is accurate, but so are you. The other guy was never as mobile as you are. Your mobility is a weapon that you have shown can be exploited too. The other guy was severely injured, and may never be the same. As was said he had little mobility before, maybe he won't have enough to succeed now. In the service, many fearless guys, after getting hit, just seem to lose something, some fire in the belly, and are intangibly never the same, even though they are completely healthy. Could this be the case?

The Judge of who wins this competition is not a stranger. Cassel knows him. He is bloodlessly and ruthlessly, realistic, and interested in what will give him the best chance. He has a track record of selecting the best player that can help him win. He cares not for yesterday, and is focused on today and tomorrow. Belichick sat down two fan favorites for the younger guy, who he judged was better for today and tomorrow not based on yesterday's headlines. He is ruthlessly fair.

Would you take a two year deal and $20-25 million guaranteed; and sit down, play cards, and compete?

 

[RayClay]

To be a successful QB in the NFL you are one of a select crew of people. You have to have great athletic talent in throwing a football.

If you are a successful QB you have to lead and inspire a group of 50 men. In the military that constantly scrutinizes for leadership, that equates to a line captain at least. Many a second lieutenant, commissioned as a leader is shunted off to other duties, if they can't LEAD men. Cassel seems to have passed that test. There was no complaining and backbiting in the locker room about the kid screwing up, and that he couldn't cut it. Even early in the season when it was obvious to all, he was feeling his way around. Team mates pitched in and helped as best they could. Intangibles and leadership bring that out.

You have to be extremely competitive, too. Some, when they lose the competition, pickup their marbles and go home. Like Gutz did transferring to Idaho State, from Michigan after getting passed by. OTOH, Brady fought for his job against the big time new comer at Michigan, and prevailed. Cassel lost out to Palmer, and Lienart, and even Brady, but he didn't quit. He still aspired to QB the NCAA National Champions at USC. Maybe Palmer or Lienhart would go down or turn bad. He stayed and he competed.

Now the stakes are higher. You can accept a trade to the Detroit Lions and start. You might and probably will get beat up. You might get injured and end your career. You will lose until the talent is better, and pay the price. The Lions 5 year plan can mature, and you can lead a rejuvenated Lions to winning season in 5 years.

Or you can gamble, and compete for higher stakes, the bigger prize. You can compete for the job as Patriots QB. It would be for the best or near best team in the League. Superbowl appearances. MVP possibilities. Winning seasons. Playoffs every year. If you win, you inherit the job as the QB of the building Juggernaut of a renewed dynastic football power.

Sure you're is going against the other guy, former MVP. But you have some cards of your own to play. The other guy is 6 years older, beginning the downside of his athletic career. He has maybe 4 more good years. You have ten years to go, and you haven't yet reached the mark to how good you will be. In a comparison of pure arm strength, you probably win. He is accurate, but so are you. The other guy was never as mobile as you are. Your mobility is a weapon that you have shown can be exploited too. The other guy was severely injured, and may never be the same. As was said he had little mobility before, maybe he won't have enough to succeed now. In the service, many fearless guys, after getting hit, just seem to lose something, some fire in the belly, and are intangibly never the same, even though they are completely healthy. Could this be the case?

The Judge of who wins this competition is not a stranger. Cassel knows him. He is bloodlessly and ruthlessly, realistic, and interested in what will give him the best chance. He has a track record of selecting the best player that can help him win. He cares not for yesterday, and is focused on today and tomorrow. Belichick sat down two fan favorites for the younger guy, who he judged was better for today and tomorrow not based on yesterday's headlines. He is ruthlessly fair.

Would you take a two year deal and $20-25 million guaranteed; and sit down, play cards, and compete?

You wrecked a really nice post with this slam.

Like Gutz did transferring to Idaho State, from Michigan after getting passed by.

He won the starting job at Michigan, then tore his shoulder. He wanted to play football. The opportunity he had won was gone and he got to play football his senior year. Something wrong with that?

 

[AzPatsFan]

You wrecked a really nice post with this slam.



He won the starting job at Michigan, then tore his shoulder. He wanted to play football. The opportunity he had won was gone and he got to play football his senior year. Something wrong with that?

I didn't mean it as a slam.

 

[RayClay]

I didn't mean it as a slam.

Some, when they lose the competition, pickup their marbles and go home.

Except he got injured, he didn't lose a competition.

A college career is short. When you win a job after two years, get injured, then don't get a chance to win it back (no surprise, time marches on and nobody owes you one year when you've been replaced) you need to move on if you want a chance.

I'm sure Michigan was grooming a young QB too, that's life.

De La Salle coach Bob Ladouceur was eager to put in a good word about Gutierrez, who helped De La Salle set the national record for consecutive victories (151).

"I said, 'I can't tell you anything about his mechanics. You know that stuff better than me, but I can tell you about his character,' " said Ladouceur. According to the legendary coach, McDaniels replied, "We know about his character. We think he's a lot like the guy we have now."

That guy is Tom Brady.

However, Gutierrez displayed Bradylike class at Michigan, where after waiting two years for his shot, he was supplanted by Henne in 2004 after suffering a torn labrum in his throwing arm. Gutierrez, who had won the starting job, expected to come back as a junior in 2005 and compete for the job. Instead, he was a backup to Henne, who had led the Wolverines to the Rose Bowl in his absence. He transferred to Idaho State for his senior season.

"It was very humbling," said Gutierrez. "The game of football has been known to humble people. That's what's great about it. It's a hard game and I had to go through those experiences to grow and become a better person and become a better player."

Gutierrez said he has no ill will toward Michigan or coach Lloyd Carr. He cited getting his degree from Michigan and the opportunity to play at Idaho State as great life experiences. However, when asked if he felt it was a fair competition, Gutierrez said, "It was what it was. It's in the past and now I'm here and I'm going to come out here and compete every day."

"I think he was told he was going to get an opportunity and he never did," said Ladouceur. "I just wish they gave him a real chance to compete for that job."

This rookie's story sure sounds familiar - The Boston Globe

 

[fair catch fryar]

I didn't mean it as a slam.

Nice post prior to this reply, but why can't it also be agreed that Cassel can have some say to where he gets traded even if it means lesser compensation for the Pats in the end. IE..the Pats send him to Arizona for a couple of lower round picks instead of to Detroit for a sure-fire 1st round. If there is bargaining that is going on under the table, then this could happen. IMO, if Brady is back to %100, then it doesn't matter how hard Cassel competes, this IS Brady's team and I personaly wouldn't want it any other way. He's in his prime and is the best there is and/or ever was IMO.

 

[Miguel]

If Cassel were to take $22M guaranteed with $10M of it this year he could have a league minimum salary and a $9.5M roster bonus in May, or whenever, if he wanted the money early. The details aren't important, they can be worked out, the only issue for us to wonder about would be how much guaranteed money he would require in the second year to satisfy him that it's worth taking over the risk of "only" making $14.8M if he gets hurt and never gets another contract.

The details are important.

From the CBA:
Amounts Treated as Signing Bonuses. For purposes of determining Team Salary under the
foregoing, the term “signing bonus” shall include:....In a Player Contract executed after September 28, 2005, any amount of a Salary advance, off-season workout bonus, off-season roster bonus, or off-season reporting bonus that is guaranteed for skill, injury and Salary Cap terminations, on a non-contingent basis for all of the guarantees. (Notwithstanding Subsections (8)- (9) above, a Salary advance, off-season workout bonus, off-season roster bonus, or off-season reporting bonus that is guaranteed for skill, injury and Salary Cap terminations, but on a contingent basis for any of the potential guarantees, shall be included in Team Salary only in the League Year in which the bonus is earned by the player; e.g., in the case of an off-season roster bonus, in the League Year in which the player is required to be
on the roster to earn the bonus. The rules set forth in this Subsection (11) shall not affect Salary Cap accounting for any other purpose.);"

I take the above to mean that a fully guaranteed roster bonus would be treated as a signing bonus.

 

[patchick]

It boils down to this: If I'm an opposing GM, have I seen enough of Cassel to warrant giving up my first round pick, thus deciding he's going to be my franchise QB? To me the answer would be no, but then there's a reason I'm not an NFL GM.

Think of it this way :

If you are the Vikings and have pick #23 what options for your "franchise QB" do you have ? And do you have to get a "franchise QB" or will a QB who you can win with be sufficient ?

Or this way: if you're the Vikings with a top defense, a solid and pricy OL and Adrian Peterson in your backfield, what one player available for the #23 pick is going to improve your team the most? I can't think of anybody who compares to Cassel there.

 

[JSn]

Or this way: if you're the Vikings with a top defense, a solid and pricy OL and Adrian Peterson in your backfield, what one player available for the #23 pick is going to improve your team the most? I can't think of anybody who compares to Cassel there.

Basically, anyone who wavers, even briefly, about whether Cassel is worth a first+ the moment he is on the trade table... WILL NOT get him. The bidding will start high. Where will it end? I'm just saying it might be wise to fasten your seatbelts kiddies.

If even two team get it into their minds they MUST HAVE MC, expect the price to get silly. I cite the Cowboys as an example of teams who will toss around picks on a whim. And that's not even a team needing a QB (or is it... bah, save that for another a thread, I guess).

 

[Patsman]

In rewinding a bit on the Derek Anderson comparison - I think there are some major differentiators. Someone mentioned that Anderson's value was all built up during the first half of the year, which is true. Cassel, on the other hand, only got better, also true. You can't forget the fact that the first 5-6 games were on a very tight leash as well.

I also think there is some major equity built into the fact that he is coming out of the Patriots system and NOT the Cleveland Browns. Look around this league currently - every coaching opportunity seems to involve some type of ex Patriot coordinator or a GM. There is market value in starting for the NE Patriots successfully for a year and plainly, just being and learning in the organization for 3 years prior to.

I still err to the side of his value being better than what we'd might perceive. He's young, he's good and he's been groomed the right way.

 

[BelichickFan]

I take the above to mean that a fully guaranteed roster bonus would be treated as a signing bonus.

Honestly, I can't even read the part from the CBA. From what you wrote, though, if the roster bonus I referred to was treated as a signing bonus that would be fine. In fact, forget my roster bonus and make it a signing bonus of $10M or so with a minimum salary year one - that gets him his money immediately as opposed to 17 installments. That's all I was saying.

 

[dhamz]

I hope the Pats and Cassel can make a 2 year deal work but I just don't see how it works for both parties. It is very easy to see how it works for the Pats.

How does it work for Cassel who isn't just going to be looking for financial security but also the chance to play. A guy who sat for almost a decade isn't going to want to potentially sit for two more. I'm not sure he'll even want to sit for 1 but a guy who has made what he has in his career wouldn't hold out with 15m on the table.

There is no reason for him to sign anything more than the tender if they are going to trade him this offseason. Without question the Pats will not be paying him what his new team will give him.

If he stays as insurance for Brady, Cassel can sign the franchise tender and worst case he would sit only for a year, make almost 15m, and then hit free agency in an uncapped year - still with some pretty high market value. The risks if Brady can't go and he plays are injury or poor play. I don't think he would be worried about the second one. With the 09 franchise $ in the bank, I'd think the Pats would probably have to go pretty high above 15m to make it worth his while to give up a starting job until 2011 and the potential $ on the 2010 market because he wants to eliminate injury risk. It then probably doesn't make it a good deal for NE.

 

[amazinPats]

In rewinding a bit on the Derek Anderson comparison - I think there are some major differentiators. Someone mentioned that Anderson's value was all built up during the first half of the year, which is true. Cassel, on the other hand, only got better, also true. You can't forget the fact that the first 5-6 games were on a very tight leash as well.

I also think there is some major equity built into the fact that he is coming out of the Patriots system and NOT the Cleveland Browns. Look around this league currently - every coaching opportunity seems to involve some type of ex Patriot coordinator or a GM. There is market value in starting for the NE Patriots successfully for a year and plainly, just being and learning in the organization for 3 years prior to.

I still err to the side of his value being better than what we'd might perceive. He's young, he's good and he's been groomed the right way.

I think this is a good point. It's possible that teams become a bit wary about some of the people the Pats let go, since the Pats are viewed as good judges of talent. The fact that the Pats are open about tagging Cassel speaks volumes. If the Pats feel that Cassel is the real deal; so will the rest of the league.

 

[AzPatsFan]

The details are important.

From the CBA:
Amounts Treated as Signing Bonuses. For purposes of determining Team Salary under the
foregoing, the term “signing bonus” shall include:....In a Player Contract executed after September 28, 2005, any amount of a Salary advance, off-season workout bonus, off-season roster bonus, or off-season reporting bonus that is guaranteed for skill, injury and Salary Cap terminations, on a non-contingent basis for all of the guarantees. (Notwithstanding Subsections (8)- (9) above, a Salary advance, off-season workout bonus, off-season roster bonus, or off-season reporting bonus that is guaranteed for skill, injury and Salary Cap terminations, but on a contingent basis for any of the potential guarantees, shall be included in Team Salary only in the League Year in which the bonus is earned by the player; e.g., in the case of an off-season roster bonus, in the League Year in which the player is required to be
on the roster to earn the bonus. The rules set forth in this Subsection (11) shall not affect Salary Cap accounting for any other purpose.);"

I take the above to mean that a fully guaranteed roster bonus would be treated as a signing bonus.

More nice research, Miguel.

 

[BelichickFan]

I hope the Pats and Cassel can make a 2 year deal work but I just don't see how it works for both parties. It is very easy to see how it works for the Pats.

How does it work for Cassel who isn't just going to be looking for financial security but also the chance to play.

Signing with the Patriots works for "a chance to play". If Brady is out, he would play. If Brady ends up doing well he'd be traded. Signing a two year deal that's structured to make him tradeable is very good for his chance to play. The worst case for his chance to play is to sign the franchise tag and not talk about a new deal. Then he's behind Brady if Brady is OK but unlikely to be traded with a one year contract.

 

[aluminum seats]

In rewinding a bit on the Derek Anderson comparison - I think there are some major differentiators. Someone mentioned that Anderson's value was all built up during the first half of the year, which is true. Cassel, on the other hand, only got better, also true. You can't forget the fact that the first 5-6 games were on a very tight leash as well.

I also think there is some major equity built into the fact that he is coming out of the Patriots system and NOT the Cleveland Browns. Look around this league currently - every coaching opportunity seems to involve some type of ex Patriot coordinator or a GM. There is market value in starting for the NE Patriots successfully for a year and plainly, just being and learning in the organization for 3 years prior to.

I still err to the side of his value being better than what we'd might perceive. He's young, he's good and he's been groomed the right way.

All good points, and as I posted earlier, what really gets me is how Anderson is referenced over and over and over again!! Enough already! OK, so a qb looked good and then fell off--I mean, let's move on. How many first round QB busts are there, like every year? Lerner, Young are only the most recent. There's a risk with every player. As qbs go, Cassel is an excellent bet. There's NO WAY the Pats don't get at least a first rounder for him.

 

[Deus Irae]

Here's a hypothetical surrounding this issue:

If the trade were with Detroit, would you rather get the Dallas #1 and Detroit's #2, or would you rather get the #1 overall pick in the draft?

 

[Miguel]

Honestly, I can't even read the part from the CBA. From what you wrote, though, if the roster bonus I referred to was treated as a signing bonus that would be fine. In fact, forget my roster bonus and make it a signing bonus of $10M or so with a minimum salary year one - that gets him his money immediately as opposed to 17 installments. That's all I was saying.

Because of the 30% rule, his 2010 salary can not be more than 130% of his 2009 salary. The minimum 2009 salary for a player with Cassel's experience is $620,000. 30% of $620,000 is $186,000. That means his 2010 salary can be no more than $806,000.

Your deal gives Cassel less money in two years than signing the franchise tender immediately.

 

[Miguel]

How does it work for Cassel who isn't just going to be looking for financial security but also the chance to play.

Not only to play but to start and presumably to succeed as his starter.

If Cassel signs a deal in early March, he can take part in his new team's OTAs, passing camps, and training camp. The sooner Cassel is with his new team the more he increases his chances of picking up his new team's system. Why would Cassel then agree to a deal that makes it easier for the Patriots to keep on the roster for a couple of months??