Emperor Bill

[RayClay]

And we played better in the second half of the seasons in 2008, 2005, and 2006 too.

I agree. In 2005 we had to scramble because we were basically a Mash unit and in 2008 we were forced into being a balanced creative offense because we had a very green QB.

If you think I'm saying McDaniels isn't intelligent, I'm not.

I actually made my point in a pretty long post about organizational/management styles. It's kind of subtle, and it's quite possible Weis would have been lulled into a more passing oriented, less balanced offense if he had the weapons McDaniels did, who knows?

I'm not making a "This guy's great, that guy sucks argument" Hope you read the other post responding to AJ.

 

[DaBruinz]

BB is a very controlling person. He'll never have the type of delegation Parcells did, it's not in his personality. Both RAC and Weis had the unique attribute of being outsiders that were insiders, but you are correct. However, having his trust allowed them to add to the team rather than being appendages of Belichick (my presumption here).

Bottom line is, Belichick is a detail guy, he's a worker. He doesn't leave things to others. Sometimes a fresh perspective from someone you trust is what you need and he is not one that likes to delegate. BB alluded to this in his day after season presser.

That's why I think the Corwin Brown signing could be significant. It might be that, given his personality, a known player and coach who's also been elsewhere could be effective.

It's management style. Hate to bring up Parcells, but it's instructive I think. BB and Parcells personalities are opposites, detail guy big picture guy. BB has modeled Parcells at various times, he is his biggest mentor, like it or not. Problem is, what works for Parcells personality is usually terrible for BB's, since they are opposites.

Belichick admitted in Cleveland he was trying to be tough guy Parecell's. doesn't mean he isn't tough, just means sarcastic wise cracking abuse of the press ain't him (I could be mis characterizing, but BB historians know he said he made a mistake trying to be Parecells in Cleveland).

Years later, having coaching retirements and defections, he goes to the Parcells model of grooming talented young coaches. Difference is, Parcells taunts his coaches, and is all too happy to delegate work to talented younger coaches. coaches get a "I'll show him attitude" and excel.

I think we have a lot of hard working coaches who feel that doing what BB wants is what brings home the bacon. I doubt they see any reason to prove anything or come up with different ideas, no one out works BB, no one is smarter.

I'm sure people will nitpick this and ignore the point (BB had jobs before Parcells!), that's fine i won't respond unless you want to take time to get the point and disagree.

Like I said, BB referred to this phenomenon (organizational go along group think) and I think Corwin Brown is a good step.

I believe that part of your problem here is that the basis of much of your analysis is from media hacks like Borges and Shaughnessy.

It's very well known that BB delegates a LOT of work to his coaches and that he holds them responsible. Your insinuation that BB's presser somehow contradicted that doesn't make sense. While having trust in a person and delegating to them aren't mutually exclusive, the idea of someone having the confidence to speak up and voice their opinion doesn't fall into that area. And your implication that BB stated such during his presser is not true. BB stated that he wished that someone of his coaches would voice their own opinions and not be "YES" men. That is about showing initiative and being confident in your work.

Now, since you make the claim that BB and BP are the opposite types of managers, lets blow that one up. For BB to be the opposite of BP, BB would have to be soft-spoken and the player's best friend type of coach. And that isn't BB, as we all know. BB is a teacher type manager. If you watched the games, you'll see BB go over while the offense is on the field and be teaching the defensive players. Showing them what they've missed and how to change what they are doing so they don't get beat the same way. I don't remember Parcells doing that with the Giants or with the Pats...

BB and BP are similar managers who use different techniques in the same management style.. BB and BP both delegate. BB and BP both are guys who don't want to hear excuses. They want to know how you intend to fix the problems.

BP showed all of us that he wanted to be micromanager (have more say in the players added to the team) and that when he didn't get his way, he quit on the team.. BB and SP shared the responsibilities of getting players in here. Both in the draft and in free agency. And if both didn't agree on them, they went to the next person. BP, on the other hand wanted it all. He wanted to have the only say in it.... That's why he left New England. And why he left Dallas.

I could go on and on with examples of how you've got BB pegged incorrectly, but I believe I've proven my point.

 

[vyrago]

....On top of that it appears that Adalius Thomas is going to bad mouth the Patriots to all other potential Free Agents. This can not help.

I don't know about the rest of your points, but It seems to me that we would be well shut of anyone who would pay serious attention to Adalius Thomas, so that's a positive, afaic.

 

[Rob0729]

I agree. In 2005 we had to scramble because we were basically a Mash unit and in 2008 we were forced into being a balanced creative offense because we had a very green QB.

If you think I'm saying McDaniels isn't intelligent, I'm not.

I actually made my point in a pretty long post about organizational/management styles. It's kind of subtle, and it's quite possible Weis would have been lulled into a more passing oriented, less balanced offense if he had the weapons McDaniels did, who knows?

I'm not making a "This guy's great, that guy sucks argument" Hope you read the other post responding to AJ.

Well if history tells us anything is that Weis would have been pass happy. Between the two of them, the only time the Pats passed 60% or more of the time in a season was 2002 under Weis. That was the most pass happy offensive season of Brady's career before this one. In fact, prior to 2004 the most common complaint about Weis from Pats fans was how he gave up on the run too easily especially in the second half.

So my guess is if we want a more balanced attack, it has less to do with the coordinator than our need to get an elite RB.

 

[RayClay]

I believe that part of your problem here is that the basis of much of your analysis is from media hacks like Borges and Shaughnessy.

It's very well known that BB delegates a LOT of work to his coaches and that he holds them responsible. Your insinuation that BB's presser somehow contradicted that doesn't make sense. While having trust in a person and delegating to them aren't mutually exclusive, the idea of someone having the confidence to speak up and voice their opinion doesn't fall into that area. And your implication that BB stated such during his presser is not true. BB stated that he wished that someone of his coaches would voice their own opinions and not be "YES" men. That is about showing initiative and being confident in your work.

Now, since you make the claim that BB and BP are the opposite types of managers, lets blow that one up. For BB to be the opposite of BP, BB would have to be soft-spoken and the player's best friend type of coach. And that isn't BB, as we all know. BB is a teacher type manager. If you watched the games, you'll see BB go over while the offense is on the field and be teaching the defensive players. Showing them what they've missed and how to change what they are doing so they don't get beat the same way. I don't remember Parcells doing that with the Giants or with the Pats...

BB and BP are similar managers who use different techniques in the same management style.. BB and BP both delegate. BB and BP both are guys who don't want to hear excuses. They want to know how you intend to fix the problems.

BP showed all of us that he wanted to be micromanager (have more say in the players added to the team) and that when he didn't get his way, he quit on the team.. BB and SP shared the responsibilities of getting players in here. Both in the draft and in free agency. And if both didn't agree on them, they went to the next person. BP, on the other hand wanted it all. He wanted to have the only say in it.... That's why he left New England. And why he left Dallas.

I could go on and on with examples of how you've got BB pegged incorrectly, but I believe I've proven my point.

Yeah, you're right, I study Borges and Shaugnessy's columns before I form my opinions.

Especially Shaughnessy. I read everything he comes out with, he's brilliant.

 

[Ring 6]

BB is a very controlling person. He'll never have the type of delegation Parcells did, it's not in his personality. Both RAC and Weis had the unique attribute of being outsiders that were insiders, but you are correct. However, having his trust allowed them to add to the team rather than being appendages of Belichick (my presumption here).

You are very right, and i mention it often, that we are fortunate to have a coach/exec who puts the future of the team first and always fields a competitive team. To me, this is the major factor in success. If you bet the house on a season, then collapse for two or three, your chances are slim, because stuff happens.

I'm a little concerned because i basically agree with everything you posted. Why am I basing BB? I'm not. Red Auerbach had faults. **** Williams had one year. I tried to make a subtle point, and i get "what's your point"? so I exaggerate.

Bottom line is, Belichick is a detail guy, he's a worker. He doesn't leave things to others. Sometimes a fresh perspective from someone you trust is what you need and he is not one that likes to delegate. BB alluded to this in his day after season presser.

That's why I think the Corwin Brown signing could be significant. It might be that, given his personality, a known player and coach who's also been elsewhere could be effective.

It's management style. Hate to bring up Parcells, but it's instructive I think. BB and Parcells personalities are opposites, detail guy big picture guy. BB has modeled Parcells at various times, he is his biggest mentor, like it or not. Problem is, what works for Parcells personality is usually terrible for BB's, since they are opposites.

Belichick admitted in Cleveland he was trying to be tough guy Parecell's. doesn't mean he isn't tough, just means sarcastic wise cracking abuse of the press ain't him (I could be mis characterizing, but BB historians know he said he made a mistake trying to be Parecells in Cleveland).

Years later, having coaching retirements and defections, he goes to the Parcells model of grooming talented young coaches. Difference is, Parcells taunts his coaches, and is all too happy to delegate work to talented younger coaches. coaches get a "I'll show him attitude" and excel.

I think we have a lot of hard working coaches who feel that doing what BB wants is what brings home the bacon. I doubt they see any reason to prove anything or come up with different ideas, no one out works BB, no one is smarter.

I'm sure people will nitpick this and ignore the point (BB had jobs before Parcells!), that's fine i won't respond unless you want to take time to get the point and disagree.

Like I said, BB referred to this phenomenon (organizational go along group think) and I think Corwin Brown is a good step.

I was with you until about half way through the post you started to tell me how BB and Parcells act toward employees and how the employees feel about, which is nothing more than a wild guess. You have absolutely no way to know that.
And the copying Parcells part was about dealing with the media, which turned out to be a big downfall, because the football media in Cleveland at the time held more power than maybe anywhere else, partly because Modell was nothing but a PR guy.

 

[RayClay]

I was with you until about half way through the post you started to tell me how BB and Parcells act toward employees and how the employees feel about, which is nothing more than a wild guess. You have absolutely no way to know that.
And the copying Parcells part was about dealing with the media, which turned out to be a big downfall, because the football media in Cleveland at the time held more power than maybe anywhere else, partly because Modell was nothing but a PR guy.

Of course I'm getting an impression from years of stories etc. It's been reported that BB made fun of Parcells behind his back for Parcells taking credit for others work. There are quotes. Though they didn't "like" each other so much, Parcells was a mentor, just the simple fact he was BB's boss for so long.

I'm not presenting these things as "facts", they are thoughts based on what seems like their management styles. Parcells is abrasive, making even coaches he groomed tend to want to prove something, "show him". Same way with players. He's sarcastic and challenging and insulting. he used to call Belichick the genius I believe.

I imagine coaches want to be like BB. He's hard working and consistent, he chooses hard working and consistent coaches. When he looks for a different opinion or viewpoint, he tends to find a group of people that agree with him.

Of course that's an interpretation, but based on what we know, I think it's probably not real far off.

For what it's worth...

 

[Ring 6]

Of course I'm getting an impression from years of stories etc. It's been reported that BB made fun of Parcells behind his back for Parcells taking credit for others work. There are quotes. Though they didn't "like" each other so much, Parcells was a mentor, just the simple fact he was BB's boss for so long.

I'm not presenting these things as "facts", they are thoughts based on what seems like their management styles. Parcells is abrasive, making even coaches he groomed tend to want to prove something, "show him". Same way with players. He's sarcastic and challenging and insulting. he used to call Belichick the genius I believe.

I imagine coaches want to be like BB. He's hard working and consistent, he chooses hard working and consistent coaches. When he looks for a different opinion or viewpoint, he tends to find a group of people that agree with him.

Of course that's an interpretation, but based on what we know, I think it's probably not real far off.

For what it's worth...

I think you are turning stereotype into personality, and thats dangerous.
In any event, the original point, I think, was whether BB is better served having 'lieutenants' to carry out his overall plan, or to have coaches that he cedes philosophy, scheme and decision making to. I think we can all agree that the former is better for him and the success of the organization.

 

[RayClay]

I think you are turning stereotype into personality, and thats dangerous.
In any event, the original point, I think, was whether BB is better served having 'lieutenants' to carry out his overall plan, or to have coaches that he cedes philosophy, scheme and decision making to. I think we can all agree that the former is better for him and the success of the organization.

But that wasn't my point. I'm fine with him taking over the defense and I'm glad he's bringing in a player with outside experience from the same coaching and playing tree.

I never said he ceded anything to RAC and Weis, I said he respected their opinion and they weren't in awe of him and likely felt free to disagree at times.

On offense he has no opinionated outsider from the tree and is not known to have been an offensive genius as an assistant. Whether one chooses to exaggerate or not, there's evidence, to me, he considered the possibility of echos, rather than dissent, in his organization. Addressed on defense. Not on offense IMO.

I didn't start this thread and am not bound to agree with the thread starter.

 

[Ring 6]

But that wasn't my point. I'm fine with him taking over the defense and I'm glad he's bringing in a player with outside experience from the same coaching and playing tree.

I never said he ceded anything to RAC and Weis, I said he respected their opinion and they weren't in awe of him and likely felt free to disagree at times.

On offense he has no opinionated outsider from the tree and is not known to have been an offensive genius as an assistant. Whether one chooses to exaggerate or not, there's evidence, to me, he considered the possibility of echos, rather than dissent, in his organization. Addressed on defense. Not on offense IMO.

I didn't start this thread and am not bound to agree with the thread starter.

There is a lot of experience knowledge and intelligence on the offensive staff. If Dante were OC no one would bat an eye. There is no doubt he assumes some of the responsibilities that an OC typically has. I find it hard to believe that Dante is afraid to give an opinion. Same with Ivan Fears who has a ton of experience coaching many postions, and not all of his experience is under BB. You seem to find OBrien to be basically a moron who cannot think or offer anything. BB clearly disagrees, and regardless of the difference in football knowledge BB obviously has viewed, judged, talked to, analyzed, dealt with, managed, praised and criticized OBrien while you haven't. Your opinion is based on never meeting the guy, so it can't really be accurate, except by luck.

 

[RayClay]

There is a lot of experience knowledge and intelligence on the offensive staff. If Dante were OC no one would bat an eye. There is no doubt he assumes some of the responsibilities that an OC typically has. I find it hard to believe that Dante is afraid to give an opinion. Same with Ivan Fears who has a ton of experience coaching many postions, and not all of his experience is under BB. You seem to find OBrien to be basically a moron who cannot think or offer anything. BB clearly disagrees, and regardless of the difference in football knowledge BB obviously has viewed, judged, talked to, analyzed, dealt with, managed, praised and criticized OBrien while you haven't. Your opinion is based on never meeting the guy, so it can't really be accurate, except by luck.

Look, we have a fine coaching staff. Dante has survived almost continuously since Ron Myer, I doubt it's by rocking the boat. He's a great coach, either way.

you've decide i couldn't possibly have a worthwhile opinion, which is fine with me, we're just going over the same ground anyway. Thing is, BB himself, in a long thoughtful answer, seemed to acknowledge exactly the phenomenon I'm talking about. Obviously, he thinks the possibility is worth discussing, for some reason.

Both Q + A are cropped for legal reasons, but it's the last question in the link.

Q: ... I wonder if there isn't a level of awe that they may feel to be on your staff, whereas Josh McDaniels, Tom Dimitroff, Scott Pioli, Charlie Weis, you all came up together. What I'm driving at is are you getting enough pushback from the guys on your staff? Do you know what I mean?

BB: Yeah, absolutely. And I've talked to other coaches about that - coaches that are pretty well established, and I get the nature of your question. There's definitely Romeo [Crennel] or Charlie or somebody; they wouldn't really be afraid to at times say, 'What are you doing? Are you serious? Are you seriously considering that?' ...

Bill Belichick Press Conference - 1/11/2010

 

[captain stone]

OK, Now I think we officially can discard the In Bill We Trust.

VP, GM, Head Coach, OC, DC....what's next: Chief of Scouting?

Seems like a train wreck waiting to happen

I would like to know one other time in NFL history when one man has assumed so many responsibilities for one organization with a good outcome.

On top of that it appears that Adalius Thomas is going to bad-mouth the Patriots to all other potential Free Agents. This can not help.

To those of you with rose colored glasses..I would like to see the positive spin on this.

There is no positive spin on this; none at all.

Some people may believe in the IBWT, but Bill seems to believe in...Nobody. In fact, his obvious mistrust of anyone with an opinion has now entered Paranoia territory. And as Ray Davies put it: paranoia may destroy ya.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Tight end Greg Olsen led the Bears with 60 catches and eight receiving touchdowns in 2009, but Martz suggested that Olsen will need to focus primarily on blocking in 2010.

"All tight ends, their first responsibility, they have to put their hand down on the line of scrimmage and be a successful blocker, and then they move to receiving," Martz said. "To just skip by that and say, 'He's a terrific receiver,' well, then you might as well just put another wide receiver in there."

Those who have longed for a genius OC to come here and straighten BB out on how to run this offense often mention Martz. If Angelo doesn't find him several more WR targets this will be a short lived stint with the Bears. He intends to not coral Cutler but to showcase his arm. He also likes some things about Hester but obviously not others. Says Hester will remain primarily a returner because he's "stupid good" in that role and using him as other than an optional slot WR might negate his best use...

Guys in this league lose jobs for the same reason they get them, stubborn belief in their system of choice even in the absence of sufficient talent to run it. Fans always expect coaches to just do whatever it takes to win regardless of their silly career long convictions or excuses like specific or systemic talent limitations. That's why they're called fans. Mike Martz will go to his grave running his system even if it means he's getting QB's killed and jeopardizing good friend's careers.

On top of all this Lovie, who is fighting for his HC life, has a crumbling defense to turn around concurrent with Martz trying to reinvent his offense on a team historically built around defense and the capacity to play at least 10 games a season outdoors in a potentially harsh, cold weather environments. Martz isn't going to attempt to fashion an offense around Cutler and his roster players. He's going to force his offensive system on whatever players he's inherited and if they fail it will be because they didn't fit it...or the FO failed to support it.

The system and coaching here are fine. They work best when the talent and execution match the system for consistency. I can live with that and the fact it won't always mesh or deliver for a variety of reasons including such variables as matchup, scheduling, health, luck... That still beats the heck out of chasing some pie in the sky alternative system fix every time is doesn't. This scouting staff is also built on the premise it knows what the system requirements are. They obviously don't get it right every time, but they got it right enough to get to 5 AFCC games in a decade and it just doesn't get any consistently better than that.

 

[bigfandan]

There is no positive spin on this; none at all.

Some people may believe in the IBWT, but Bill seems to believe in...Nobody. In fact, his obvious mistrust of anyone with an opinion has now entered Paranoia territory. And as Ray Davies put it: paranoia may destroy ya.

A thoughtful post from Captain. Hope you are wrong... b/c I can't take it if you are right.

Ultimately, the separation of FO and Coaching benefits the coaches more than anyone else. FO/HC can play the bad cop/good cop roles in dealing with tough issues, be it player contracts, or playtime, or discipline (such as A Thomas situation); there are times a GM needs to sit down and straighten up a discontent player or someone who outplayed his contract, coach can stay out of these emotional issues and focus on player performance... now everything goes to Bill, financial, family, on field performance. It's a lot to take on already without a GM or VP. No OC, no DC, it's going to be even tougher. Bill has too much confidence in himself. Today's game is too complex and too specialized to be run like it's 1950.

 

[Sicilian]

There is no positive spin on this; none at all.

Some people may believe in the IBWT, but Bill seems to believe in...Nobody. In fact, his obvious mistrust of anyone with an opinion has now entered Paranoia territory. And as Ray Davies put it: paranoia may destroy ya.

Not handing out the TITLES of OC and DC does not equal paranoid distrust of the other coaches. If the responsibilities of the OC and DC are spread out amongst various people, and he still has the opinions of Brady, Pepper, Patricia, and Dante to give him outside opinions, who the hell cares what we call all those people?

I work for a company that hands out fancy titles like they're after dinner mints. We have so many VP's, the title loses all it's meaning, because they're not doing anything an Executive Director or regular old manager would not be doing.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

A thoughtful post from Captain. Hope you are wrong... b/c I can't take it if you are right.

Relax, that the captain is wrong is basically a given...

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Relax, that the captain is wrong is basically a given...

That's my Captain Downer, the best barometer of team health there is. :singing:

 

[Rob0729]

There is no positive spin on this; none at all.

Some people may believe in the IBWT, but Bill seems to believe in...Nobody. In fact, his obvious mistrust of anyone with an opinion has now entered Paranoia territory. And as Ray Davies put it: paranoia may destroy ya.

Actually, Bill believes in his people. That seems pretty clear. He wouldn't put young coaches in positions to grow into coordinator roles so quickly like he has with McDaniels, Mangini, O'Brien, and either Patricia or Peppers (or both) unless he had trust in them. Add the fact that he is doing the same in the front office with Caserio. Sorry, you got it all wrong.

It is kinda funny how we have gone on this board from a guy like Maverick4 who loved to beat on McDaniels because Belichick gives his coordinators total autonomy to this guy complaining about Belichick about being a control freak who doesn't trust anyone in one short year.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

OK Now I think we officially can discard the in Bill we trust.

VP, GM Head Coach OC DC....whats next Chief of Scouting.

Seems like a train wreck waiting to happen

I would liek to know one other time in NFL history when one man has assumed so many responsibilities for one organization with a good outcome.

On top of that it appears that Adalius Thomas is going to bad mouth the Patriots to all other potential Free Agents. This can not help.

To those of you with rose colored glasses..I would like to see the positive spin on this.

Jerry Jones.....HC, OC, DC, VP of Operations, GM, Owner, Chief Scouting Director, Capologist, and one very certifiable nutjob