Dreams of a WR Trade

[Ivan]

The caveat is that such concerns or criticisms must be intelligently applied, which requires an understanding of the Patriots' passing scheme. The system requires a very specific set of abilities at WR giving physical and mental aspects equal emphasis. That's where many folks here miss the boat in assessing what they "see" happening.

Oh great. now you are saying that people need to actually know what they are talking about. That pretty much ruins everything.



That picture of gymrat and jetjets "working out' is hilarious.

 

[AzPatsFan]

An interesting factoid on this whole trade stuff, the current Pats roster has 0 players here via trade....

INOW there are not a lot of trades that BB makes...

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-...d/4763459/patriots-influence-in-san-francisco

revert back to gym stuff now...

If you read and understood the SF GM interview you know that...'There is a season unto heaven'. At least that is what a Good Book says.

The season for trades is yet to dawn. As trades are expensive, in both money and/or draft picks, BB chooses to only use them to fix problems that the earlier team building methods did not satisfy; or outstanding values are in prospect. Talib and Sopoaga were meant to address severe needs. Blount was just too convenient a value to pass up.

BB chose to replace Talib, with someone better, and chose not to pay the other two, as other more inexpensive alternatives presented themselves. This season the only current problems, reserves at TE and LB, are not that severe, but he can choose to sign e.g. Keller and Anderson post 6/1.

Interesting enough the Cards are shopping a 'move TE', Housler around the League. He has a respectable resume, and could be an alternative to Keller.

 

[Ivan]

They pay them mediocre guys but don't want to give any $$ to a real talented building block/game changer.

Right on the money. The idiot Blichick won't pay a talented Game Changing CB like Talib, who is a shutdown corner as long as he doesn't get bruised, but he will give big money to a mediocre player like Revis.

 

[patsinthesnow]

http://patscap.com/
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/05/...s-to-break-character-and-acquire-andre-johnso
http://overthecap.com/thoughts-andre-johnson-lessons-learned-contract/

Trading Amendola after June 1st would save us 2.8 million in cap space for this year.
Trading Johnson after June 1st would save the Texans 11 million in cap space for this year.

A potential "win now" trade:

Amendola
Dobson
4th
------------------
Johnson

potential WR depth chart

1. Johnson
2. Edelman
3. Lafell
4. Thompkins
5. Boyce/Gallon
6. Slater

A simple restructure of his contract would get us below the salary cap easily. Stay tuned?

I'm not sure what I would do, but trading for Johnson no doubt makes the 2014 team a better team, but sacrificing cap space (Amendola 2015 cap hit) and the potential of Dobson becoming a good WR in the future.

 

[Ivan]

If you read and understood the SF GM interview you know that...'There is a season unto heaven'. At least that is what a Good Book says.

The season for trades is yet to dawn. As trades are expensive, in both money and/or draft picks, BB chooses to only use them to fix problems that the earlier team building methods did not satisfy; or outstanding values are in prospect. Talib and Sopoaga were meant to address severe needs. Blount was just too convenient a value to pass up.

BB chose to replace Talib, with someone better, and chose not to pay the other two, as other more inexpensive alternatives presented themselves. This season the only current problems, reserves at TE and LB, are not that severe, but he can choose to sign e.g. Keller and Anderson post 6/1.

Interesting enough the Cards are shopping a 'move TE', Housler around the League. He has a respectable resume, and could be an alternative to Keller.

As I have said before TE/LB were priorities for me in this draft, but that was for depth, Belichick apparently felt getting startrs for his OL was more important and he can add depth at those positions with vets this summer.

 

[Ivan]

http://patscap.com/
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/05/...s-to-break-character-and-acquire-andre-johnso
http://overthecap.com/thoughts-andre-johnson-lessons-learned-contract/

Trading Amendola after June 1st would save us 2.8 million in cap space for this year.
Trading Johnson after June 1st would save the Texans 11 million in cap space for this year.

A potential "win now" trade:

Amendola
Dobson
4th
------------------
Johnson

potential WR depth chart

1. Johnson
2. Edelman
3. Lafell
4. Thompkins
5. Boyce/Gallon
6. Slater

A simple restructure of his contract would get us below the salary cap easily. Stay tuned?

I'm not sure what I would do, but trading for Johnson no doubt makes the 2014 team a better team, but sacrificing cap space (Amendola 2015 cap hit) and the potential of Dobson becoming a good WR in the future.

I appreciate the effort but that's too much imo. I think Amendola has a really good season and believe in Dobson, I wouldn't trade both for Johnson. I realize he is good but I think that they are going back to the 2003-2004 model where they want more good receivers and Brady just goes to the open guy, as opposed to the 2007 model where they would be Johnson and Edelman centric.

 

[Snake Eyes]

They routinely fail on third and long. They fail to sustain drives. I'm not discussing this. Its ridiculous. The wonder twins r mediocre WRs at best. Even former players u used to cheer for r saying Brady deserves better. His former teammates. They lack size,burst,fluidity, athleticism of other good WRs. Do u think Edelman is as good as Hilton? Yet colts see the need to upgrade and add playmakers. This offense stalls in January. Everybody outside of homers know we need a wr opposite Dobson. Edelman/Amendola are #3 slot WRs. Both them on the field at same time is a handicap. Edelman should never have been resigned. We have already had a slot. Amendola. DOBSON WITH EMMANUEL SANDERS WOULD HAVE BEEN LETHAL DUO. Instead watch him tear it up in Denver now. Let's see who makes plays this year. I will requote this when season begins and Sanders lights it up while we all wonder why isn't he doing those things for us. NOBODY showed Edelman any interest. They KNEW Brady made him as he was only wr he knew real well. Look at Edelman catches, he was mostly covered and Brady forced him the ball in tight windows while he was blanketed in coverage. He was just our most experienced with Brady. EVERY team saw that. NOBODY wanted Edelman in the open market. He resigned because he was UNWANTED ANYWHERE ELSE. Our Wr corps is filled with players NOBODY else wanted. When healthy Amendola is a good slot with an extra gear on short routes. Edelman shows less separation. If we really wanted him back we could have got him cheaper because he got zero interest in free agency.

Edelperson is very solid, I'd much rather have him than Amendola, he's just not a #1 receiver.

 

[AzPatsFan]

As I have said before TE/LB were priorities for me in this draft, but that was for depth, Belichick apparently felt getting startrs for his OL was more important and he can add depth at those positions with vets this summer.

Don't feed the Trolls; nor interfere with the doofi Draftniks. Starters are NOT as important as their wishes on Reserves.

After all, don't all teams use their First rounders to draft Reserves ?

 

[Ivan]

Don't feed the Trolls; nor interfere with the doofi Draftniks. Starters are NOT as important as their wishes on Reserves.

After all, don't all teams use their First rounders to draft Reserves ?

Well, I have to admit that I was among them because I wanted Sefarian-Jenkins and a top LB early, but given that I also understand that they have to look to build their roster in the smartest ways they can and simply going by the most obvious needs to fans clearly won't achieve that. I also think that the tendency among fans is offense first and offense all the time, and we see that here in the current arguments as even though Belichick has created the best defense we have seen in years in NE there are many fans upset because they didn't try to build the most powerful offense in the league again.

I think part of the disconnect between fans and the team every offseason is that we look at it in terms of available talent and filling their most obvious needs with it, whereas they are looking at it in as part of an ongoing team building that focuses upon the units and needs for starters and depth as well as how all the pieces fit together to give them a roster that can address all of their special teams needs. they are also looking at it in terms of coming years and age and contracts and will start filling those needs ahead of time so as to not get caught off guard when a player retires, gets hurt, or they can't get the deal done with them, and whereas we can only speculate they already have a good idea of what player's are going to be looking for how much and whether or not that will get done.

Like many here I was focused upon next season and getting a ring, which would only leave my thumb without one, and that would be kind of awkward anyways. So I wanted the move TE and another really athletic LB who could cover and get after the QB, as well as some other things, but he went line and depth, and looking at it afterwards i can understand why and think he did a really good job overall. How good will always depend upon how they pan out, so we will see, but I really like this team and think they could start the season tomorrow if they needed to, and that's a great place to be at in May.


As far as the draftniks go I will say that we have some really good ones, like Grid, Mayo, and Manx (and many others) and others who kind of suck because they believe they could do a better job, which is patently absurd, but from what i can tell overall we actually have one of the best boards in sports when it comes to discussing it, and i give many props to both the posters, the moderators, and Ian for the tenor of it, which manages to stay really civil for the most part.

 

[Ivan]

After all, don't all teams use their First rounders to draft Reserves ?

I think the concept of ""reserves" is changing radically in the NFL as traditional bases are used less than sub packages, so a 2nd TE is really a starter for many teams, as are the 2nd and 3rd RB's for teams that go by committee, and the same goes almost every unit on the team other than OL. The numbers on how much time the Patriots spend in sub packages on both sides of the ball indicate that they can no longer really just build base starters with back-ups for them and more role player are in the mix most of the time.

That said I agree in terms of what they did in the draft as they hopefully got starters for the OL, which is one unit that is basically stable, and addressed depth at RB/DB/QB, as none should be seeing too much time this year.

 

[Gymrat]

Edelperson is very solid, I'd much rather have him than Amendola, he's just not a #1 receiver.

Overall that's correct. I was kinda going off one game where danny looked fairly slippery.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Well, I have to admit that I was among them because I wanted Sefarian-Jenkins and a top LB early, but given that I also understand that they have to look to build their roster in the smartest ways they can and simply going by the most obvious needs to fans clearly won't achieve that. I also think that the tendency among fans is offense first and offense all the time, and we see that here in the current arguments as even though Belichick has created the best defense we have seen in years in NE there are many fans upset because they didn't try to build the most powerful offense in the league again.

I think part of the disconnect between fans and the team every offseason is that we look at it in terms of available talent and filling their most obvious needs with it, whereas they are looking at it in as part of an ongoing team building that focuses upon the units and needs for starters and depth as well as how all the pieces fit together to give them a roster that can address all of their special teams needs. they are also looking at it in terms of coming years and age and contracts and will start filling those needs ahead of time so as to not get caught off guard when a player retires, gets hurt, or they can't get the deal done with them, and whereas we can only speculate they already have a good idea of what player's are going to be looking for how much and whether or not that will get done.

Like many here I was focused upon next season and getting a ring, which would only leave my thumb without one, and that would be kind of awkward anyways. So I wanted the move TE and another really athletic LB who could cover and get after the QB, as well as some other things, but he went line and depth, and looking at it afterwards i can understand why and think he did a really good job overall. How good will always depend upon how they pan out, so we will see, but I really like this team and think they could start the season tomorrow if they needed to, and that's a great place to be at in May.


As far as the draftniks go I will say that we have some really good ones, like Grid, Mayo, and Manx (and many others) and others who kind of suck because they believe they could do a better job, which is patently absurd, but from what i can tell overall we actually have one of the best boards in sports when it comes to discussing it, and i give many props to both the posters, the moderators, and Ian for the tenor of it, which manages to stay really civil for the most part.

I should really refine my utter CONTEMPT for Draftniks who I consider to be Doofuses. It is quite alright to study the prospective Draftees talent, and anticipating the Draft. I do it myself.

But I truly have contempt is for the ones who having done their cursory study, then decide their drafting ability is better than the best current GM in existence, and the staff who do this for a living.

Certainly everyone makes mistakes in the Draft and subsequent injury can ruin a perfectly good prospective career of a draftee. BB must gamble on his 2nd and 3rd rounders to make up for the poor drafting position all the winning creates. Certainly that leads to failures there.

But I saw Paul Brown driven out of Cleveland, and Don Shula forced out of Miami by the vicious backbiting of such as these contemptible people that I derisively label as 'Draftniks'.

I can see the same kind of idiocy going on here in Foxboro. Over time the conventional wisdom becomes established that these erstwhile Coaches couldn't coach, or manage a team anymore. The 'game had passed them by' or he 'wasn't as sharp as he used to be' were the terms used for Brown and Shula respectively. After they were gone it was decades, if ever, before their Teams ever won much of anything.

I see the same thing happening here in Foxboro. It simply is not true that Belichick is a terrible GM, and that he can't draft or acquire talent. His record reveals how many Pro Bowl players he has found drafting at the tail end of the Draft every year. The record shows how many shrewd acquisitions he has found among the supposed detritus of other teams rosters. The record is unsurpassed for finding over looked talent in the past-over, UDFA rookies.

The overall record of never having posted a losing record, save in his first re-organization season here, is uncontested. No other team has anywhere near as good a winning record,encompassing as it does through about three generations of players.

 

[Ivan]

AZ-you won't get any argument from me that Belichick is a great GM or that the people who think they can do better are mentally ill.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I think the concept of ""reserves" is changing radically in the NFL as traditional bases are used less than sub packages, so a 2nd TE is really a starter for many teams, as are the 2nd and 3rd RB's for teams that go by committee, and the same goes almost every unit on the team other than OL. The numbers on how much time the Patriots spend in sub packages on both sides of the ball indicate that they can no longer really just build base starters with back-ups for them and more role player are in the mix most of the time.

That said I agree in terms of what they did in the draft as they hopefully got starters for the OL, which is one unit that is basically stable, and addressed depth at RB/DB/QB, as none should be seeing too much time this year.

In the Goode Olde Days', the term that was most frequently used was 'situational substitution'. BB knew that it was difficult to find complete players. He could find say Defensive players who were good in one aspect, say against the Pass, or against the Run. It was why he always emphasized 'Depth', sometimes of a certain kind.

He could insert the most appropriate player as the situation demanded. Sometimes it was on a per play basis, but as often or not it was on a per game basis. BB has always been described as a 'Game planner'. Often that means planning to utilize his anti-run talent against Running teams. And conversely planning on using his anti-Passing players against Passing clubs.

It often involved varying the formations against the Pass or Run too. Similarly the situational game planning was done for the Offense as well.

There is little new under the Sun.

 

[Ivan]

In the Goode Olde Days', the term that was most frequently used was 'situational substitution'. BB knew that it was difficult to find complete players. He could find say Defensive players who were good in one aspect, say against the Pass, or against the Run. It was why he always emphasized 'Depth', sometimes of a certain kind.

He could insert the most appropriate player as the situation demanded. Sometimes it was on a per play basis, but as often or not it was on a per game basis. BB has always been described as a 'Game planner'. Often that means planning to utilize his anti-run talent against Running teams. And conversely planning on using his anti-Passing players against Passing clubs.

It often involved varying the formations against the Pass or Run too. Similarly the situational game planning was done for the Offense as well.

There is little new under the Sun.

We disagree on that, i think that they are building series of sub units and using them extensively and not just putting in back-ups for starters. They spend more time in nickel and dime formations than the base and that blurs lines between starter and reserve and requires a higher level of talent across the roster, which is an advantage for the Patriots imo because Belichick is better at building that kind of team than other GM's, and his management of the cap in relation to building a stronger overall roster is a big reason why.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I should really refine my utter CONTEMPT for Draftniks who I consider to be Doofuses. It is quite alright to study the prospective Draftees talent, and anticipating the Draft. I do it myself.

But I truly have contempt is for the ones who having done their cursory study, then decide their drafting ability is better than the best current GM in existence, and the staff who do this for a living.

Certainly everyone makes mistakes in the Draft and subsequent injury can ruin a perfectly good prospective career of a draftee. BB must gamble on his 2nd and 3rd rounders to make up for the poor drafting position all the winning creates. Certainly that leads to failures there.

But I saw Paul Brown driven out of Cleveland, and Don Shula forced out of Miami by the vicious backbiting of such as these contemptible people that I derisively label as 'Draftniks'.

I can see the same kind of idiocy going on here in Foxboro. Over time the conventional wisdom becomes established that these erstwhile Coaches couldn't coach, or manage a team anymore. The 'game had passed them by' or he 'wasn't as sharp as he used to be' were the terms used for Brown and Shula respectively. After they were gone it was decades, if ever, before their Teams ever won much of anything.

I see the same thing happening here in Foxboro. It simply is not true that Belichick is a terrible GM, and that he can't draft or acquire talent. His record reveals how many Pro Bowl players he has found drafting at the tail end of the Draft every year. The record shows how many shrewd acquisitions he has found among the supposed detritus of other teams rosters. The record is unsurpassed for finding over looked talent in the past-over, UDFA rookies.

The overall record of never having posted a losing record, save in his first re-organization season here, is uncontested. No other team has anywhere near as good a winning record,encompassing as it does through about three generations of players.

People said the game passed Tom Landry, and it seems they were correct.

Miami has declined since Shula left, I wonder how much of that was due to having a HoF QB to...not having one.

 

[AzPatsFan]

We disagree on that, i think that they are building series of sub units and using them extensively and not just putting in back-ups for starters. They spend more time in nickel and dime formations than the base and that blurs lines between starter and reserve and requires a higher level of talent across the roster, which is an advantage for the Patriots imo because Belichick is better at building that kind of team than other GM's, and his management of the cap in relation to building a stronger overall roster is a big reason why.

I would argue that the Defense is much more talented then it used to be. There are complete players and Stars or potential Stars spread throughout the various squads. Look for example at the secondary. How many starting caliber CBs are there? Revis, Browner, Dennard, Ryan, Arrington and you could add McCourty too. How many clubs have that much talent in a single squad?

I think there are five superior players amongst the dozen or so candidates on the Defensive line. Even the 'thin' LBs can offer 4 superior players if called on, in Mayo, Hightower, Collins and Ninko.

 

[Ivan]

People said the game passed Tom Landry, and it seems they were correct.

.

They weren't saying it when his team was one of the best team's in the league every year.

 

[Gymrat]

Well, I have to admit that I was among them because I wanted Sefarian-Jenkins and a top LB early, but given that I also understand that they have to look to build their roster in the smartest ways they can and simply going by the most obvious needs to fans clearly won't achieve that. I also think that the tendency among fans is offense first and offense all the time, and we see that here in the current arguments as even though Belichick has created the best defense we have seen in years in NE there are many fans upset because they didn't try to build the most powerful offense in the league again.

I think part of the disconnect between fans and the team every offseason is that we look at it in terms of available talent and filling their most obvious needs with it, whereas they are looking at it in as part of an ongoing team building that focuses upon the units and needs for starters and depth as well as how all the pieces fit together to give them a roster that can address all of their special teams needs. they are also looking at it in terms of coming years and age and contracts and will start filling those needs ahead of time so as to not get caught off guard when a player retires, gets hurt, or they can't get the deal done with them, and whereas we can only speculate they already have a good idea of what player's are going to be looking for how much and whether or not that will get done.

Like many here I was focused upon next season and getting a ring, which would only leave my thumb without one, and that would be kind of awkward anyways. So I wanted the move TE and another really athletic LB who could cover and get after the QB, as well as some other things, but he went line and depth, and looking at it afterwards i can understand why and think he did a really good job overall. How good will always depend upon how they pan out, so we will see, but I really like this team and think they could start the season tomorrow if they needed to, and that's a great place to be at in May.


As far as the draftniks go I will say that we have some really good ones, like Grid, Mayo, and Manx (and many others) and others who kind of suck because they believe they could do a better job, which is patently absurd, but from what i can tell overall we actually have one of the best boards in sports when it comes to discussing it, and i give many props to both the posters, the moderators, and Ian for the tenor of it, which manages to stay really civil for the most part.

While I admit that is an intelligent highly scientific scheme its far to Robotic. Backup RB depth b4 a much needed starting legit playmaking WR. Are you kidding? RBs r a dime a dozen. Furthermore if the starting WRs are feared and respected and the OLine can compete man up. RB will take care of itself. Dominant OLine and feared playmakers and I'll get a 4th or 6th round RB to rush for 1500 yards. Bryce Brown,a talented Rb just went for a 7th rounder.

BTW I like Housler. Big potential platogetherh Tom Brady. I also like a HEALTHY returned to form Finley. Mike Williams would have been nice to pair with Dobson. I like Dobson a lot. Its just at this stage he isn't the MAN who can suck up double coverage and still kick butt. Even if he ever is that guy means little now. He will be awesome as part of a duo for now.

I would prefer to give up a #2 draft pick than Dobson. He and Andre would be lethal together. There's Noway in HE!! They want Amendola as part of that trade. They already have dead cap space when Johnson leaves. Amendola at his overpaid price as psrt of a deal would make thebackuph. For taking on Johnsons cap hit while not having his production will take some compensation. Mallet and a #2 for starters while a young cheap potential playmaker would entice them such as Boyce and Thompkins. Most likely Boyce. I would give up both over Dobson. The #2 pick is necessary, any team would laugh at anything less.

A #2 isn't giving up much. Would prefer getting Johnson than Tavon or a Cunningham or a backup qb or RB. I liked this draft as a whole Loved Easley even with the risk. Liked OLine picks although I liked Antonio Richardson over Fleming, unless Fleming is projected to Guard. Where his power at 6'5 330 with decent athleticism would stand out I really like Zach Moore. More raw ability than 2nd rounder Kony Early. BUT obviously a wr was needed. I like idea trading up for Marquise Lee. If We were really that high on GP we could have traded Mallet for a #3 then traded a future #2 and Boyce with the #3 we got for Mallet to select Garappolo. That's if we really see Jimmy as our futuQB starter. Otherwise he was just a backup QB with no major confidence as a future franchise QB. Or we could have traded up couple spots for Paul Richardson or Allen Robinson then traded Mallet for Texans #3 draft pick along with future #2 or #3 to land GP. That is only if we are truly that high on JG being anything nearly similar to Manning's successor Andrew Luck. Which personally I do.

With that said,most fans would have been happy with landing a legit feared WR like Richardson,Robinson,or Marty Bryant as well through some maneuvering. Bryant would have been the cheapest and most easy to obtain. It would of cost us backup RB white at most. A small price for a high ceiling WR.

Could have traded Mallet to gain a pick,then maneuvered to still get those OLineman,Zach Moore,Jimmy Garappolo and a Wr talent. Whether Bryant in round4 over White or maneuvering to acquire them guys along with Lee or Richardson or Robinson to pair with Dobson. Jimmy Johnson who many consider is very likely the greatest Coach/GM ever, did lots of maneuvering, to get the particular players he needed and he felt would become standouts and dominate like he required of his players. Rather than stand put and accept whatever trash fell to him.

 

[Snake Eyes]

They weren't saying it when his team was one of the best team's in the league every year.

No, they said it afterwards when they were very mediocre, and it seems to have been proven correct when Jimmy Johnson quickly came in and built a dynasty, one that would have been fare more grand had Jerry Jones not screwed things up by belittling and alienating Johnson.