Deflate-Gate: Here We Go Again

[strngplyr]

Then the Pats still went against the rules. The ref marks the balls as he approves them after inspection before the game. Teams aren't allowed to just toss in new balls.

Never said they didn't break the rules in my completely made up scenario.

But I also said its a completely made up scenario and that I was intentionally playing the bad guy (insinuating that the rules were broken.)

 

[Love The Drake]

I'm not one of those I want us to dominate the Seachickens.

 

[njpatsfan]

If I get this gay-falkes thing right:

Temp at pumping 25c. Temp at measure point 7c.

Ratio of temps in kelvin is
(273+7)/(273+25) equals 94%.

So absolute pressure goes from (14.7+12.5) which is 27.2 to 25.6.

25.6-14.7 is 10.9 psi.

So the ball would measure 10.9 psi.

Winner!

PV=nRT - Ideal gas law, n and R are constant, linear relationship between P, V and T. With V (volume of the football) assumed constant, the relationship between the pressure at two different temps is given by

P2 = P1(T2/T1) where T is the temp in Kel

Given your starting P of 12.5 psi and your Kelvin ratio of .94, I get:

P2 = 12.5 psi x (.94) = 11.75 psi - not 10.9 psi

The temps look off too. Room temperature is 70F and ambient air temp on the field was about 50 F .... roughly 21 and 10C respectively. If they were inflated at 12.5 psi, this would translate to a decrease of about .4 psi to 12.1 psi. Gets you part of the way there but not the whole story.

The balls were wet, and there was wind, so the surface of the ball would experience some evaporative cooling (assuming they were measured on the sideline), but probably not enough to get you to the delta T to explain the difference, if they were in fact starting at 12.5 psi or higher.

We will need some more facts to figure out if temp was a significant contributor or not.

Rich

 

[FrodoBagginz]

The only team getting kicked out of the Super Bowl are the Seahawks when we lay the smackdown on their ***es.

 

[Deus Irae]

Goodell is in no position to come down hard.

Have you seen Roger's work?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I'm gonna check out for the night myself.

The one last thought I'll say is this: GRONK's tweet still hasn't been taken down.

If the Patriots were that concerned about this, it would have been gone hours ago.

 

[Love The Drake]

If the Ballboys did nothing out of the ordinary its that the refs never measured the balls.
If you punish us punish the packers as well.

 

[The Gr8est]

The haters will take this and never let it go, but my opinion is basically as ChesBay outlined. BB and Brady, and the rest of the league is aware of what they can get away with and try to do so to the benefit of their QBs preference. They may try and get out of spec balls passed through hoping that the refs, as is often the case, don't do a proper test on the balls prior to the game.

This is only an issue because it is the overly scrutinized Pats, and while this will make our haters hate us even more, the fault lies with the refs, and not the Pats. There actually should be no fault at all if all teams know what goes on and accepts it, as is usually the case, unless you get an owner like Irsay who decides to make an issue out of it.

The fact that the Ravens only mentioned it now, the Panthers kicker made his comments, and we have Rodgers comments just confirms to me that it is a widespread practice and everyone is in on it.

Kind of like Spygate and filming as the Pats did was common, until the butt hurt Rats decided to make an issue out of it.

In short, I don't think the Pats are stretching the rules more than other teams do, it's just that they are in the spotlight, and a lot of teams are envious of their long term success.

 

[shmessy]

Folks:

The Ravens kickers claiming that the balls they kicked in the playoff game were under-inflated HELPS the Patriots' cause here.

Kicking balls are only handled by the league officials. They cannot be handled by the teams. There is no way for Patriots sideline personnel to have come in any contact with those game kicking balls.

If the Raven kickers' claims are true, then that is smoking gun proof that footballs do indeed lose pressure in a cold damp game atmosphere - - without the influence of any team ballboys.

 

[kennyb]

PV=nRT - Ideal gas law, n and R are constant, linear relationship between P, V and T. With V (volume of the football) assumed constant, the relationship between the pressure at two different temps is given by

P2 = P1(T2/T1) where T is the temp in Kel

Given your starting P of 12.5 psi and your Kelvin ratio of .94, I get:

P2 = 12.5 psi x (.94) = 11.75 psi - not 10.9 psi

The temps look off too. Room temperature is 70F and ambient air temp on the field was about 50 F .... roughly 21 and 10C respectively. If they were inflated at 12.5 psi, this would translate to a decrease of about .4 psi to 12.1 psi. Gets you part of the way there but not the whole story.

The balls were wet, and there was wind, so the surface of the ball would experience some evaporative cooling (assuming they were measured on the sideline), but probably not enough to get you to the delta T to explain the difference, if they were in fact starting at 12.5 psi or higher.

We will need some more facts to figure out if temp was a significant contributor or not.

Rich

Is it guage pressure or absolute pressure? If absolute goes down 5% then guage pressure in this case goes down by about 1.4 psi.

Outside temp at halftime was 45 I think or about 7c. Inside would be about 22 possibly.

 

[strngplyr]

I'm gonna check out for the night myself.

The one last thought I'll say is this: GRONK's tweet still hasn't been taken down.

If the Patriots were that concerned about this, it would have been gone hours ago.

The simple fact that the players were all jokes or (convincingly) unaware is what has me completely at ease. You'd think that if they had any idea that they were clearly breaking rules they'd be a little more tight lipped.

Otherwise, thats one hell of a good conspiracy and acting job going on.

 

[strngplyr]

Folks:

The Ravens kickers claiming that the balls they kicked in the playoff game were under-inflated HELPS the Patriots' cause here.

Kicking balls are only handled by the league officials. They cannot be handled by the teams.

If the Raven kickers' claims are true, then that is smoking gun proof that footballs do indeed lose pressure in a cold damp game atmosphere - - without the influence of any team ballboys.

Its proof that they lose pressure or proof that the referees don't properly check the balls, either way helps our cause.

 

[NJPatsfan26]

Folks:

The Ravens kickers claiming that the balls they kicked in the playoff game were under-inflated HELPS the Patriots' cause here.

Kicking balls are only handled by the league officials. They cannot be handled by the teams.

If the Raven kickers' claims are true, then that is smoking gun proof that footballs do indeed lose pressure in a cold damp game atmosphere - - without the influence of any team ballboys.

so the ravens helped our cause? i feel dirty

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

The Colts and the Patriots QBs, TEs, WRs, RBs, Centers, those making interceptions, those making fumble recoveries, those catching kickoffs and punts, those picking the ball up after a play, and multiple referees all clutched these footballs. Presumably all these players have grasped footballs before many many many many times. No referees or players raised a concern. The game concluded with a lopsided 45-7 score. Afterwards, supposedly, 11 balls were all numerically short the minimum 12.5 psi by (quick math) something like 11% (with, as some suggest, some of that 11% is to be expected due to extreme cold game time temperature).

I just want to make sure I am hearing "people", many coming out of the woodwork though some surprisingly not, exactly right, this is what makes you butt hurt? Wow, just wow.

Here's the story and it's been an ongoing for a while: What will a logic/fairness challenged (based on a clear recent track record) NFL front office do with the SCANDALOUS information noted in my first paragraph. Hey, who knows what these dolts will do, however, whatever they spout/do ain't going to effect the upcoming Patriot Super Bowl one iota (or the 2015 season for that matter). Otherwise than being the slow news week prior to Super Bowl week and the routine 'Patriots win too much' based click bait loudmouths and their troll/dimwhit following, this is a non story (sorry if I killed anyone's suspense).

 

[ctpatsfan77]

PV=nRT - Ideal gas law, n and R are constant, linear relationship between P, V and T. With V (volume of the football) assumed constant, the relationship between the pressure at two different temps is given by

P2 = P1(T2/T1) where T is the temp in Kel

Given your starting P of 12.5 psi and your Kelvin ratio of .94, I get:

P2 = 12.5 psi x (.94) = 11.75 psi - not 10.9 psi

The temps look off too. Room temperature is 70F and ambient air temp on the field was about 50 F .... roughly 21 and 10C respectively. If they were inflated at 12.5 psi, this would translate to a decrease of about .4 psi to 12.1 psi. Gets you part of the way there but not the whole story.

The balls were wet, and there was wind, so the surface of the ball would experience some evaporative cooling (assuming they were measured on the sideline), but probably not enough to get you to the delta T to explain the difference, if they were in fact starting at 12.5 psi or higher.

We will need some more facts to figure out if temp was a significant contributor or not.

Rich

Only commenting on this b/c I saw it just after my last post. . . .

Again, you have to use absolute pressure (i.e., add 14.7 PSI to the gauge pressures) in Gay-Lussac calculations. The pressure inside the football is ~27 PSI, not ~15.

 

[ChesBay]

It's worth pointing out here that it's an open question* what the temperature inside the football is. Picture a cooler. The walls of the cooler are designed to reduce, though not stop, the flow of heat over time. The walls of the football work much the same way. We simply don't know whether the temperature inside the balls was 40°F or 70°F or somewhere in between.

*Open both in the sense that no data has been provided (and I strongly suspect none will) and in the sense that I personally couldn't tell you what those values should be in a scenario like this. I can describe the general phenomenon, but I can't provide specific numbers.

Yes I agree...using the PV=nRT stuff leads you to the determination that there can be as much as a 2.46 psi differential (in pressure) if a 30 degree change in temperature is experienced, which would conform to the situation where the balls were initially tested at room temperature (i.e. indoors) and then utilized outdoors. However....if those same balls were again tested indoors (i.e. after the game), they should return to the initially tested pressure UNLESS THEY WERE ALTERED IN THE INTERIM.

 

[fnordcircle]

Je suis deflated.

 

[Jlaff]

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?...ence-first-cold-weather-super-bowl-180949521/


1:45 mark

Sports Science exposed a football at 10 degree temperatures for 1 hour. Its air pressure dropped over 20%.

The exact same laws of physics applies when the weather is in the 40's and 50's as well.

As several experts have guestimated, the expected drop in air pressure would have be from 1.4 psi to 1.75 psi.

Droped by 2.5 psi in an hour at 10 degrees, brilliant, just brilliant. Can't thank you enough for finding that, as far as I'm concerned that puts this garbage to rest. Ironic thing is, ESPN produced that.

 

[Deus Irae]

Folks:

The Ravens kickers claiming that the balls they kicked in the playoff game were under-inflated HELPS the Patriots' cause here.

Kicking balls are only handled by the league officials. They cannot be handled by the teams. There is no way for Patriots sideline personnel to have come in any contact with those game kicking balls.

If the Raven kickers' claims are true, then that is smoking gun proof that footballs do indeed lose pressure in a cold damp game atmosphere - - without the influence of any team ballboys.

"Patriots handled refs' balls. Story at 11."

 

[Love The Drake]

Droped by 2.5 psi in an hour at 10 degrees, brilliant, just brilliant. Can't thank you enough for finding that, as far as I'm concerned that puts this garbage to rest. Ironic thing is, ESPN produced that.

Post this on every major website please.