Defensive Line - scouting the prospects

[captain stone]

Here you go.

Uncanny...

No doubt now, Connor...er...Koa Misi will definitely be one of our 2nd-round picks this year.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Box, I'm really interested in Misi. I've never seen him play, so would you mind filling me in on the points I look for?

How does his initial burst look coming off of the line? Does he replace his hand with his foot and accelerate rapidly into his rush?

Have you seen him check his rush? Does he plant well when doing this?

How is his technique vs a head up blocker when he's standing up? Does he retain leverage and get a full lockout?

Did they loop him at all? If so, does he look fluid or akward as he peels off his lane and into the inside gap?

Does he wade through trash well/find the ball like a heat seeking missle within a couple of yards?

Does he blow contain/bite on misdirection?

I know that's a lot to ask, but your eyes are keen and judgement sound. You're the best I know for getting a read on a player, and anything you way be able to give would be greatly appreciated.

Seriously man, what's wrong with you, why are you asking these kinds of questions? All you need to know is his 40 time, bench press, and arm length

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Seriously man, what's wrong with you, why are you asking these kinds of questions? All you need to know is his 40 time, bench press, and arm length

They are questions which are asked when evaluating a defensive player for the NFL draft. What kinda questions do you ask??

 

[Marqui]

Did Misi play in the Senior Bowl game?

 

[bucky]

They are questions which are asked when evaluating a defensive player for the NFL draft. What kinda questions do you ask??

Must be still cold up there in Canada.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box, I'm really interested in Misi. I've never seen him play, so would you mind filling me in on the points I look for?

How does his initial burst look coming off of the line? Does he replace his hand with his foot and accelerate rapidly into his rush? - I don't consider him a speed rusher, in that he's more like my impression of Vrabel, effort, effort, effort.

Have you seen him check his rush? Does he plant well when doing this? - Yes, as much as I understand what you are asking for, he's under control, gets into the QB's vision, and is disruptive in the throwing lane.

How is his technique vs a head up blocker when he's standing up? Does he retain leverage and get a full lockout? - This is an area he needs to work on, he didn't stand up throughout the games as much as a NE OLB would, so it's a limited sample.

Did they loop him at all? If so, does he look fluid or akward as he peels off his lane and into the inside gap? - Looked pretty fluid to me.

Does he wade through trash well/find the ball like a heat seeking missle within a couple of yards? - Perhaps not a heat seeking missle, but he gets there and doesn't get knocked down or tripped up. As an aside, go to the Pro Day thread and check out the USF videos, it was really interesting watching Pierre-Paul and Selvie doing LB & DL drills: Pierre-Paul looked so smooth working through the bags, while Selvie was too high and stiff, but testing in reverse, Pierre-Paul looked stiff, took extra steps, and the balance he showed in his bag drills was strained, while Selvie looked smooth dropping back and changing direction. Pity we couldn't combine the two.

Does he blow contain/bite on misdirection? - I didn't see it, but I've read at least one scouting report that says he's a little too aggressive in pursuit.

I know that's a lot to ask, but your eyes are keen and judgement sound. You're the best I know for getting a read on a player, and anything you way be able to give would be greatly appreciated.

Answering from my faulty memory (I've deleted everything but his Senior Bowl game and he primarily played OLB there), I'll do my best. I picked him out against Alabama in the Sugar Bowl last January while scouting Paul Kruger whom Baltimore took at #57 last year, Misi looked like the better 3-4 OLB candidate in that game. He's not a man coverage LB against TEs, but he influenced the play.

Misi is #41, playing LOLB, LDE in these clips...

YouTube - Utah vs. Alabama, 2009 Sugar Bowl

another look, defense only...

YouTube - John Parker Wilson Had a bad day

A year later against Cal he's playing RDE and can be seen battling LT Mike Tepper (79, 6'7" 319) and LG Mark Boskovich (70, 6'4" 304). At this point Misi's been losing weight in preparation for the draft season, about three weeks later he weighs in at 244 for the Senior Bowl.

YouTube - 2009 Poinsettia Bowl (Utah vs. California)

Hope it helps.

 

[BritPat]

They are questions which are asked when evaluating a defensive player for the NFL draft. What kinda questions do you ask??

Sense of humour failure?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Sense of humour failure?

Not so much, he's been bitten by snakes before and is sensitive to their nature. :snob:

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Sense of humour failure?

Yea big time and I think I worked to many hours before the long weekend:bricks:

I just thought the guy was being smart.....goes to show who was smart

 

[cstjohn17]

Try two... browser timed out or something...

Casserly said on NFL Network last night that an NFL executive told him that this was one of the deepest drafts in history for D Lineman. The exec said over 25 players graded as potential NFL starters and would be picked within rounds 1 or 2.

I am sure that this would include DE/OLB conversions, but this is good news for the Patriots as they need at least 2 front seven players.

 

[WesWelker83]

Koa Misi looks like trash, he had a whopping 5 sacks his senior season and those came against schools like Wyoming and Colorado State...

Run defense: Explosive coming off the edge if untouched, flexible enough to chase down backs. Lacks the bulk to play end on early downs at the next level, but is strong enough as a linebacker on the edge to be an effective run stopper...

Really? Who isn't explosive off the edge untouched?

Misi is not trash! The guy played in a scheme in which he dropped into coverage alot! He wasnt just rushing the passer every single passing down. I remember against Alabama in 08 bowl game they were blitzing and dropping guys into coverage from all over the front 7. Misi definitely has talent and you have to love the fact he has pass coverage experience. The guy also has a ton of potential and he has a great work ethic. The guy has increased his production every single year. Taking him at 47 or 53 would definitely be a good value.

If you actually read the full scouting report on espn and cbs you would have noticed the positives definitely outweighed the negatives. He just sounds like a Patriot like Pat Chung did last year. Misi is a leader, great work ethic, freak athlete, pass coverage experience, great tackler, great instincts, can set the edge, and can rush the passer.

He needs to develop extra pass rush moves, bulk up, and learn how to use his hands more effectively. He not a finished product but who is? I like this guy more then Kindle, Sapp, Griffen, and Dunlap. I like Brandon Graham more but he might not even last until 22 and he has question marks too like lack of pass coverage experience.

 

[Nonentity]

Another question for Box, and probably jays52 as well. What position does he appear to convert to in our 3-4? The obvious guess is Sam, replacing Vrabel, but an alternative is the Mike position.

Reading the cbs scouting report he can evidently stack and shed, even if it doesn't say it in as many words. He had experience playing in space in college, and is regarded as an excellent tackler. And he can drop into coverage. Bruschi was a DE convert too, and although I hate to compare anyone to him, they look to have quite similar skillsets.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Misi is not trash! The guy played in a scheme in which he dropped into coverage alot! He wasnt just rushing the passer every single passing down. I remember against Alabama in 08 bowl game they were blitzing and dropping guys into coverage from all over the front 7. Misi definitely has talent and you have to love the fact he has pass coverage experience. The guy also has a ton of potential and he has a great work ethic. The guy has increased his production every single year. Taking him at 47 or 53 would definitely be a good value.

If you actually read the full scouting report on espn and cbs you would have noticed the positives definitely outweighed the negatives. He just sounds like a Patriot like Pat Chung did last year. Misi is a leader, great work ethic, freak athlete, pass coverage experience, great tackler, great instincts, can set the edge, and can rush the passer.

He needs to develop extra pass rush moves, bulk up, and learn how to use his hands more effectively. He not a finished product but who is? I like this guy more then Kindle, Sapp, Griffen, and Dunlap. I like Brandon Graham more but he might not even last until 22 and he has question marks too like lack of pass coverage experience.

I know everyone wants to jump on board and love this guy like they did with Barwin last year, but a lot the scouting reports that I've read have said that he is not a great run defender, has average pass coverage skills (even though he has experience dropping), and struggles to get off blocks. I've only seen him play once or twice but I didn't come away that impressed with him. I don't know if he's the "Vrabel clone" everyone is looking for. I think we're in greater need of a "Willie Mac clone" anyway.

I just don't personally see Misi as one of those guys who is an explosive pass rusher. He seems like a blue collar player who is somewhat of a project, and is solid but unspectacular. If we're going to be drafting a project, I'd rather take a chance on a guy who is more explosive and has a higher ceiling. I know a lot of people on here are falling in love with him but I personally am not a big fan, just like I wasn't that big of a fan of Barwin.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Another question for Box, and probably jays52 as well. What position does he appear to convert to in our 3-4? The obvious guess is Sam, replacing Vrabel, but an alternative is the Mike position.

Reading the cbs scouting report he can evidently stack and shed, even if it doesn't say it in as many words. He had experience playing in space in college, and is regarded as an excellent tackler. And he can drop into coverage. Bruschi was a DE convert too, and although I hate to compare anyone to him, they look to have quite similar skillsets.

Positions? We don't need no stinking positions! I'd expect Misi to develop at OLB - either side - Special Teams, and down the road crosstrain at ILB.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

What a horror it would be to have a developing DE/OLB like Barwin with 4.5 sacks and 4 PD in part time play. There are no perfect players in this draft, everybody has their weakness, even the inestimable Suh. The trick, as Bill Belichick has explained, is to find out what a player does well, and project that to NE's system. There are exceptions, the more famous is "don't bring me a defensive player who can't tackle."

Misi 71 TT, 9.5 TFL, 5 sacks, 1 QBH, 3 FF. #3 overall tackler on the team.
Dunlap 38 TT, 10.5 TFL, 9 sacks, 6 PD, 2 QBH. #8 overall tackler on the team.

What can we take from a comparison of binkies? Dunlap makes big plays 25.5 to Misi's 17.5, but Misi finds the ball nearly 2 to 1.

Dunlap has extraordinary physical attributes, Misi is average for an NFL prospect, but clearly makes the most of his talents. Dunlap could be a superstar, it's why people drool over him, Misi will show up with his hardhat and lunch pail - everyday. So is anyone advocating drafting Misi in round one? The highest I've seen him projected is mid-second, which is the latest I've seen Dunlap projected.

Vrabel, Bruschi, Phifer, Colvin - hard hat & lunch pail guys who worked hard to know the system and apply it to the field. They are the reason I look at a Koa Misi or a Connor Barwin and see a Patriot. Bruschi was drafted with no position in the third, 86 overall. Colvin was 111 overall in the fourth. Phifer a second round pick in 1991. Vrabel was 91 overall. I expect some team to draft Misi anywhere from the late second on and have a 10 year player - that's good value. The kind of value I want for NE.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Oghobaase should be avail. later than the 2nd/3rd round. 4th or 5th is where he deserves to go.

The reason Oghobaase will last that long is that he is a poor tackler. Just watch the film, he whiffs on a lot of tackles. Yes he has good size and length for the position, but he's not what I'd call an exceptional run defender. He has some potential, but he's a 4th round or later player for a reason.

 

[cstjohn17]

What a horror it would be to have a developing DE/OLB like Barwin with 4.5 sacks and 4 PD in part time play. There are no perfect players in this draft, everybody has their weakness, even the inestimable Suh. The trick, as Bill Belichick has explained, is to find out what a player does well, and project that to NE's system. There are exceptions, the more famous is "don't bring me a defensive player who can't tackle."

Misi 71 TT, 9.5 TFL, 5 sacks, 1 QBH, 3 FF. #3 overall tackler on the team.
Dunlap 38 TT, 10.5 TFL, 9 sacks, 6 PD, 2 QBH. #8 overall tackler on the team.

What can we take from a comparison of binkies? Dunlap makes big plays 25.5 to Misi's 17.5, but Misi finds the ball nearly 2 to 1.

Dunlap has extraordinary physical attributes, Misi is average for an NFL prospect, but clearly makes the most of his talents. Dunlap could be a superstar, it's why people drool over him, Misi will show up with his hardhat and lunch pail - everyday. So is anyone advocating drafting Misi in round one? The highest I've seen him projected is mid-second, which is the latest I've seen Dunlap projected.

Vrabel, Bruschi, Phifer, Colvin - hard hat & lunch pail guys who worked hard to know the system and apply it to the field. They are the reason I look at a Koa Misi or a Connor Barwin and see a Patriot. Bruschi was drafted with no position in the third, 86 overall. Colvin was 111 overall in the fourth. Phifer a second round pick in 1991. Vrabel was 91 overall. I expect some team to draft Misi anywhere from the late second on and have a 10 year player - that's good value. The kind of value I want for NE.

Why not take both? Dunlap and Msi? So what if the immortals Ninkovich, Woods or Crable has to get cut. As I see it Dunlap would play the McGinest \ Vrabel role with Msi being the Rosie Colvin \ TBC type.

Don't seel Bruschi and Vrabel short, they were outstanding college players. Bruschi was the NCAA all time sack leader (since broken) and Vrabel was Ohio States all time sack leader. They didn't have a pure NFL position but were very productive in college and had a proven talent to get to the QB.

 

[Marqui]

I know everyone wants to jump on board and love this guy like they did with Barwin last year, but a lot the scouting reports that I've read have said that he is not a great run defender, has average pass coverage skills (even though he has experience dropping), and struggles to get off blocks. I've only seen him play once or twice but I didn't come away that impressed with him. I don't know if he's the "Vrabel clone" everyone is looking for. I think we're in greater need of a "Willie Mac clone" anyway.

I just don't personally see Misi as one of those guys who is an explosive pass rusher. He seems like a blue collar player who is somewhat of a project, and is solid but unspectacular. If we're going to be drafting a project, I'd rather take a chance on a guy who is more explosive and has a higher ceiling. I know a lot of people on here are falling in love with him but I personally am not a big fan, just like I wasn't that big of a fan of Barwin.

Completely agree.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Why not take both? Dunlap and Msi? So what if the immortals Ninkovich, Woods or Crable has to get cut. As I see it Dunlap would play the McGinest \ Vrabel role with Msi being the Rosie Colvin \ TBC type.

Don't seel Bruschi and Vrabel short, they were outstanding college players. Bruschi was the NCAA all time sack leader (since broken) and Vrabel was Ohio States all time sack leader. They didn't have a pure NFL position but were very productive in college and had a proven talent to get to the QB.

I can't get inside Dunlap's head enough to have an educated guess as to whether he'll play or bust (FL DE syndrome), which is why I don't have him on my board - like I did with Meriweather in 2007.

Bru and Vrabes were indeed strong college players, which is why I lust after Eric Norwood for NE to be another such, I'd love to see both Misi and Norwood in NE colors. That said, neither Bru and Vrabes were rated as dominant NFL players to be left to the third round, which is why they classify as lunch pail lads for me, they had to work hard in transition to succeed.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Completely agree.

We seem to see eye to eye on quite a few draft topics

I know you and I are in the minority of people who still want Greg Hardy in the draft.

What other guys do you like at OLB and in the draft in general?