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Defending Texans Play Action

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  1. JR4

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    Have any thoughts?

    VW says they look the same in what ever their offense does.
    He's says sound fundamentals technique are most important against a
    team like this.

    Reiss has a link to some experts who say PATS won't be able to defend
    Texan's play-action.
    New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston


    Didn't the greatest show on turf, 2001 Rams, use a lot of play action?
    Didn't PATs put a spy, I think it was Willy, on the RB which made life real
    difficult for M.Faulk?
    Would a RB spy work here? If so who? Mayo?
    If the play becomes a pass Mayo is pass rusher otherwise plays run D.
    But how to keep Mayo free so he has space to pursue?

    So any ideas here?
  2. PP2

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    I think BB will attack the play-action by focusing on shutting down the run, because doing that serves a dual purpose, it takes away the play-action and it squeezes the pocket. The longer Schaub is in the pocket the less effective he is. I think we'll see a lot of "contain" rushing.

    Schaub has become a much more deliberate QB now and is keen on avoiding risky throws over the middle, something he used to do quite a bit. He will invariably opt for the safe sideline options.
  3. hodgey

    hodgey Rookie

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    Problem will be defending the naked bootleg off play action. Ninko and Jones are going to have to play their best games for our D to be effective.
  4. 76Texan

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    Very much agree!

    The back side DE or OLB (if the Pats are in the 34) needs to stay discipline the whole game.

    They can blow the whole play out of the water for Schaub.

    The other guys who have coverage duties on one of TEs (OD and Graham) or our hybrid FB/TE James Casey will also have to be alert not to buy the play fake.

    Just once or twice and it could cost the Pats dearly.

    Schaub is the King of the Play Action the last 3 years.
    They displayed stats during a couple of Texans games this year.
    Schaub has the most PA passes over 20 yards over the next QB by a large margin.

    If the Pats can take that out of the equation, it will be a difficult task for the Texans to win the game.
  5. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I think we'll see a high dose of run blitzing from Spikes and\or Mayo. The Pats will stay in base a lot but this might be a game to get Chung more involved but as a hybrid LB not a S. I think he could play on the LOS over one of the TEs and do well both covering and chipping them while at the same time giving good run support. If they are going to find a role for this this might be the time and the role.

    Agree on Jones and Nincovich needing to set the edge. I also think Hightower will be actively involved in this role and also hitting the TEs. He needs to do a better job of this than he's done in some other games. On the bootlegs by Shaub I like Jones speed and length to affect that play and Nincovich is very solid on not taking the cheese. I more worry about the defensive backs biting and leaving one of the Texan's receiver 15 yards open.
  6. PP2

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    Chung hasn't been playing in base. He only comes on in nickel as the 3rd safety. That's how far down the depth chart he is.
  7. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The scheme you reference regarding the Rams was that BB determined the Rams offense was all timing, and Faulk was the key, therefore all players were instructed that if he comes their way to hit him. Willie happened to be the one in that position the most.
    I don't think a spy is a means to defend playaction, a spy is used to 'spy' a scrambling QB or a RB that catches a lot of screen passes.
    Defending playction has a lot to do with the safeties. The reason play action works is that against a zone defense you get defenders to move forward to play the run, and therefore be slow into their drops creating bigger seams. It works inside more than outside,because corners are much less susceptible because their run D responsibliities are not as crucial. LBs will always 'bite' on play action so the safeties are key, however, that leads to the safeites being a step slow in run support. Our big front 7, 2 gap philosophy results in much less pressure on the safeties to sell out for the run, which is why we historically are good vs play action.
    5-10 years ago, 1st down play action was a key to beating our defense. That was how Shanahan was always successful (and Kubiak is a disciple) so look for that, but look for BB to be prepared.
    Of course play action takes longer, and is much less successful vs a blitz, so watch for some 1st down stunts, and run blitzes with man coverage behind it to counter act that.
  8. Brady_to_Moss

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    #95 Jersey

    schaub bootlegs so dam well then just hucks it to johnson...when i see that play i will be scared
  9. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Can you explain what you mean by playing a scheme designed to shut down the run taking away play action? Wouldn't it be the opposite?
  10. JR4

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    Don't know about "historically" but this year PATs are just Average.

    PATs allow 1.3 more yards on a PA play than a non-PA play which is the NFL average.

    complete list here
    FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 Play-Action, Defense
  11. PP2

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    I would think that when you try to collapse the pocket quicker than the play-action is allowed to develop, this would do the job. In the act of collapsing the pocket, I would think we'd "contain" rush which would allow one of the lineman to quickly shed if the RB gets a ball and tries to exploit a lane.
  12. BradyBranch39

    BradyBranch39 Rookie

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    Just listened to Greg Cosell talk a little bit about HOU's play action. Said that it's insane how hard it is to defend... that sometimes a DL guy is unblocked, but the fake takes care of him anyways.

    Also said that it will be interesting to see whether BB puts Talib on AJ, or if he doubles AJ and puts his best corner (Talib, implied) on the #2 guy (Daniels?).
  13. Brady_to_Moss

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    #95 Jersey

    double aj with whoever..and let walter beat you
  14. mayoclinic

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    I wonder if we'll see the Pats try to confuse Schaub by disguising coverages they way they used to in the old days, or even see some ameboid elements. Unlikely, but it wouldn't shock me to see a few surprises.
  15. PP2

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    Don't think they will double AJ but will probably bracket him by converting McCourty into rover safety and cheating him to where AJ aligns on the LOS. I think we'll be in the 4-3 under nickel with Arrington picking up Daniels.
  16. JR4

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    I was thinking BB may come up with something special for this team.
    But maybe he'll save it. Since there is a good possibility that PATs
    may see the Texans in the playoffs and knowing how BB always likes
    to be prepared for the future he may not show his whole hand at this time.
    PATs are in the playoffs and so this not a must have game.
  17. AndyJohnson

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    I'm assuming you mean 4-2 nickel, but wouldn't it make sense to have a bigger DB on Daniels if you are going to go man coverage? Is your thinking that Arringtom hurts us the least on someone who is unlikely to get deep?
  18. AndyJohnson

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    I dont think we disgusie coverages any less than we used to. Some of the NFLN and ESPN shows have started to point out these examples as they analyze our D (seems they analyze it a lot more when it does well).
    The ameboid is more of a disguising the rush. I'm not sure why we don't do that, but it seems like discipline is a work in progress for our defense, so that may well be why.
  19. AndyJohnson

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    Well, if we are trying to stop the run we wouldn't really be collapsing the pocket. That is why play action works, despite being slow developing because your passrushers are preoccupied with their run D duties.
    Your last sentence suggests the opposite, playing the pass and hoping you are in position for the run.
  20. AndyJohnson

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    Well first there are way too many variables going into that stat to make it extremely useful, although 'average' isn't much of a statement.
    Of course being average on play action when being less than average on all pass defense would support that our scheme handles pa well.
    Like I said, our scheme and philopshy is conducive to defending PA because we typically do not ask our safeties to make plays up near the los in the running game.
  21. mayoclinic

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    I understand what the amoeba is - the term " or even" was used in my earlier post to distinguish it from just disguising pass coverages, but I obviously didn't 't express myself well. My apologies for not being clearer.

    Regardless, confusion may be one way to slow down play action - make it harder for Schaub to read the defense, either the coverage or the pass rush.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  22. 76Texan

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    With the Zone Blocking Scheme with the running flow going one way and the QB roll out the opposite direction, there's no pocket to collapse.

    The backside end man (on the side of the roll-out) needs to stay home; otherwise, the Qb has all the time to set up and throw.

    But if he stays home, and the offense runs the ball, the D has one fewer defender in pursuit.

    Even if the defense plays well, it's taxing because of the built-in element of the scheme.

    It can be defended; but just like how Brady is so smooth out of the Pats scheme, the Texans scheme is also difficult to defend due to execution.

    If you've seen some Texans games where they show the view from the endzone; it's impossible (or very difficult) for the D to tell whether it's a run play going to the left or a pass play going to the right.

    The PA from power blocking doesn't give the same elements.

    In the meantime, Schaub's faked hand-off to the RB is superb, almost all of the times.

    They show you the end zone view and you can't tell until he pulls the ball out of the RB's belly.

    This, combined with the action of the O-line and the different pass patterns make it more difficult for the defense.

    Even teams in the same division find it a task to defend.
    Just like what the Pats do on the offense is also difficult to defend.

    The guys on the field just need to execute.

    We're talking about two very good teams here.
    The one that shows up will win, unless a prevalent luck supports one side more than the other.

    I hope this game becomes a classic that fans from both Sides will remember;
    Knowing that the Texans have never won anything, of course!
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  23. PP2

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    Yes, you are correct. My mistake.

    Right.. Daniels is unlikely to go deep so I imagine they put Arrington on him.
  24. 76Texan

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    Does the Gronk need to go deep to cause damage?

    17 to 20 can turn into 30-40 in a hurry.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  25. PP2

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    Unlikely doesn't mean Daniels can't or won't. My thinking is to assign the DB with a high degree of liability to a player who, compared to, AJ for example, would cause a lesser amount of damage.
  26. PP2

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    This is an interesting thing to discuss, and I think it will be a great game too and can't wait to watch it on Monday night. Very exciting.

    The problem with the zone blocking scheme is that you block whoever shows up in front of you, not a specific player. My thought on that is Spikes will cause some big headaches with this. If you have seen him, you know he has an uncanny ability to time the snap count. My believe is that in addition to focusing on stopping the run, Spikes will be one-gapping along with one or two more linemen who will try to shoot through the zones.

    With the bootleg, as you described it, is not a play-action (at least not to my knowledge). I think the same principle as above would threaten. The concept of "contain" rushing would serve to seal the edge on any bootleg/naked bootleg, and you would still have the one-gapping backer or lineman crashing at an angle to minimize the vertical gain of the bootleg.
  27. 76Texan

    76Texan Rookie

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    I still remember Edelman torching us for 10 catches and more then 100 yards a few years ago when Welker unfortunately went down, you don't take anybody lightly. He made a good impression on me that day.
  28. 76Texan

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    I still remember Edelman torching us for 10 catches and more than 100 yards a few years ago when Welker unfortunately went down, you don't take anybody lightly. He made a good impression on me that day.
  29. 76Texan

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    One thing I've seen that can destroy this scheme is for an interior guy blasting through the hole or decimate a guard at the POA. The guards on the ZBS are light weight. They rely on quickness. If a NT or DT gets a good jump, it's very hard for the second guy in the chain to get into the combo block.
  30. 76Texan

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    Obviously a LB shooting through the gap would work too, but if they come from the second level, it won't be as effective (too far of a distance).
    But if one can blow up our Hybrid FB/Te Casey, it will be hard for us to gain yard as well; and Casey can never be compared to Vonta Leach as a blocking machine.

    In fact, this is where our inside zone run becomes ineffective.
    And the Pats certainly have the LBs to do that.
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