CHFF:Tom Brady: Not So Terrific

[MoLewisrocks]

I honestly don't know how you all can put Tom Brady in the GOAT discussion....

All you ever bring up is the rings 'argument'. Do any of you actually know that he only threw for 1TD in the 3 games they played during the first superbowl win?

LOL Spoken like another someone who missed actually watching those games because they were on past his bedtime. Brady ran for a TD and led the team into FG range for the game tying and game winning FG's in near blizzard conditions, he got knocked out of the AFCC in the midst of a first half TD drive Drew finished off, and he threw for a TD to David Patten (same throw he made to Welker only in the back corner of the EZ) and led a remarkable drive into FG range from his own 10 yard line with a minute and eighteen seconds and no time outs left that Madden thought was nuts to even attempt even though the defense was gassed and wouldn't have had a prayer had they lost the coin toss and gone into OT. And that was exactly what he was coached to do and what the game plan was predicated on, just keep them close until the end.

Things have changed a lot in the last several years due to rules changes that led Bill to determine that the passing game become more of a focus here in order to remain competitive...which we have. The difference between the results then and now is Brady and Belichick having playmakers on both sides of the ball.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

There is a DIRECT correlation between Brady's regression and the Patriots decision to make this a QB-centric team.

Back in the day this QB and this offense was all about ball control, clock control and game management. Aside from obviously terrific personnel on the D in those years, a big part of the reason the Patriots D was so outstanding is because they were INTENTIONALLY kept on the sidelines as much as possible.
Those championship Patriot teams actually game planned to keep the other teams offense/their outstanding defense OFF the field. They game planned to limit the touches of a Peyton Manning by using their own offense as a game managing clock eating weapon and they won championships with that philosophy.
That all changed somewhere in '05/'06.
Why it changed I don't really know but I believe perhaps the absence of Charlie Weis had much to do with it. Weis had an ego as big as Tom Brady's and that was good because it kept Brady in check vis-a-vis Weis game plan.
Since Weis departure we've seen a steady stream of inexperienced O-coordinators and a steady rise in the stature of Tom Brady as Brady and his arm has been allowed to take over this offense - pass and pass again, empty backfield shotgun, push the ball down the field quickly.
A meaningful reliable running game has become an afterthought. Running the offense over center is a rarity. Once a powerful staple, the screen play is no longer a regular part of their playbook.
Clock management??
Ball control??
Downright laughable and in a bad way.
The end result of this metamorphosis??
Razzle and dazzle and record setting regular seasons by an offense that has scored a whopping 14 and 17 points in the last 2 SB's and couldn't play ball control or manage the clock if their lives depended on it.
But there is hope.
Tom Brady's age and an growing-ever-longer list of injuries is going to force the Patriots to finally reel him in, to get him and this offense back under the coaching staff's control and back in balance.
When that happens these New England Patriots will win another Super Bowl.

I could have sworn more happened than Charlie departing...something about rule changes designed to facilitate the passing game. Belichick probably should have just ignored it like that memo on filming...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Score was 32 to 29.

Patriots passed 48 times/ran 35 times and the TOP was nuts.
Pats had the ball for 38:58. The 4th qtr of that game was as crazy and any I've seen in any SB. Both teams went up and down the field. Brady threw a bad pick in that game and once again the Patriots all-time MVP Adam V. saved the day.

MVP missed a couple of chip shots that day, and he didn't kick the game winner from 50+ territory, either.

Brady can do more in less time than any QB I've ever known, provided he has guys on the field with him who are not necessarily elite but just as clutch and determined to do their job as he is. And having that consistently is sadly something that has changed over the last several years. Just like the rules did.

 

[GoWhalers]

Your Honor,

In the case of Spoiled Fans vs. Tom F****** Brady, I would like to submit the following evidence in support of the defendant:

4th and 16, and the weight of an entire season on his (hurting) shoulders. How he keeps this drive alive is frankly amazing.

Super Bowl 46: Tom Brady clutch 4th down completion - YouTube

The defense rests.

 

[Nordberg]

Guys....

Please read my Thread Titled

CHFF (Don't ever click again) Please Sticky

Thank you

 

[RhodyPatriot]

I could have sworn more happened than Charlie departing...something about rule changes designed to facilitate the passing game. Belichick probably should have just ignored it like that memo on filming...

The rules changes also facilitate the passing game for the other team. This is why you want to have a quality running game at your disposal and one that you are committed to using instead of developing a track team that's incapable of playing ball and clock management against good teams like the Ravens and Giants.
When you develop and utilize an air attack instead of a well rounded offense you expose your own defense because you're not capable of long time consuming drives that keeps them off the field and rested.
It's also nice to have the run game when your QB hurts his shoulder and has a passer rating of 25 in the 4th qtr of the Super Bowl when you're trying to protect a lead.
But noooooo, even with Brady hurt we get the vanilla shotgun offense. No screens, no running between the tackles, no Brady over center throwing those quick 3 yd darts that he used to be famous for...nope, nothing that gave the Giants defense something even remotely new to think about prior to the ball being snapped.
Yeah they've changed the rules to facilitate the passing game but somehow those rules "tighten up" in the playoffs every year. Defenses are allowed to play a much more physical game against the pass in the playoffs.
The Patriots struggle because of it.
They struggle because they're one dimesional and even within that one dimension they don't utilize enough variety to keep the defense honest and on their heels wondering what's coming next. This is why they couldn't put the Ravens away despite having the ball twice (once starting on the 50 yd line) with 7 minutes left in that game and it's why they could not score a single point after taking a 17 - 9 lead with 11 minutes left in the 3rd qtr of the SB.
This team is not winning another Super Bowl until they develop a well rounded and balanced offense.
The good news it that Brady's advancing age will force this on the Patriots.

 

[Gumby]

There is a DIRECT correlation between Brady's regression and the Patriots decision to make this a QB-centric team.

Back in the day this QB and this offense was all about ball control, clock control and game management. Aside from obviously terrific personnel on the D in those years, a big part of the reason the Patriots D was so outstanding is because they were INTENTIONALLY kept on the sidelines as much as possible.
Those championship Patriot teams actually game planned to keep the other teams offense/their outstanding defense OFF the field. They game planned to limit the touches of a Peyton Manning by using their own offense as a game managing clock eating weapon and they won championships with that philosophy.
That all changed somewhere in '05/'06.
Why it changed I don't really know but I believe perhaps the absence of Charlie Weis had much to do with it. Weis had an ego as big as Tom Brady's and that was good because it kept Brady in check vis-a-vis Weis game plan.
Since Weis departure we've seen a steady stream of inexperienced O-coordinators and a steady rise in the stature of Tom Brady as Brady and his arm has been allowed to take over this offense - pass and pass again, empty backfield shotgun, push the ball down the field quickly.
A meaningful reliable running game has become an afterthought. Running the offense over center is a rarity. Once a powerful staple, the screen play is no longer a regular part of their playbook.
Clock management??
Ball control??
Downright laughable and in a bad way.
The end result of this metamorphosis??
Razzle and dazzle and record setting regular seasons by an offense that has scored a whopping 14 and 17 points in the last 2 SB's and couldn't play ball control or manage the clock if their lives depended on it.
But there is hope.
Tom Brady's age and an growing-ever-longer list of injuries is going to force the Patriots to finally reel him in, to get him and this offense back under the coaching staff's control and back in balance.
When that happens these New England Patriots will win another Super Bowl.

I think you are hitting the nail on the head with what has happened to the Pats on O; but I think you are identifying the wrong time/event as the cause.

I point my finger to 2007 and Randy Moss

I think Randy ruined TB. He taught TB that there is a pot of gold if you just throw up enough rainbows. Unfortunatly even Randy isn't always Randy Moss (SB 42 - he plays when he wants to). And there aren't any others around like him.

Brady used to take what the D would give. Now in the SB AND in the AFCCG he looks off WIDE OPEN GUYS at the 10-15 yd point in order to throw into double/triple coverage 30-50 yards downrange.

He doesnt jog for an easy 10 yard and hook slide when all we need to do is keep moving the chains, put some kind / any kind of points on the board and most of all burn up the clock so Eli doesnt get the ball back.

Yeah, the offense not being able to consistently run the ball hurt too; but TB is in a lot of ways a sharper QB, tighter, more accurate thrower than he was in 2003-2006; but he has regressed in one of the BB football fundamental concepts. Keep the ball - play field position - don't turn it over.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

I think you are hitting the nail on the head with what has happened to the Pats on O; but I think you are identifying the wrong time/event as the cause.

I point my finger to 2007 and Randy Moss

I think Randy ruined TB. He taught TB that there is a pot of gold if you just throw up enough rainbows. Unfortunatly even Randy isn't always Randy Moss (SB 42 - he plays when he wants to). And there aren't any others around like him.

Brady used to take what the D would give. Now in the SB AND in the AFCCG he looks off WIDE OPEN GUYS at the 10-15 yd point in order to throw into double/triple coverage 30-50 yards downrange.

He doesnt jog for an easy 10 yard and hook slide when all we need to do is keep moving the chains, put some kind / any kind of points on the board and most of all burn up the clock so Eli doesnt get the ball back.

Yeah, the offense not being able to consistently run the ball hurt too; but TB is in a lot of ways a sharper QB, tighter, more accurate thrower than he was in 2003-2006; but he has regressed in one of the BB football fundamental concepts. Keep the ball - play field position - don't turn it over.

The question is was Moss the disease or simply a symptom. Remember Brady was center stage in the events that lead to Moss landing here. One has to wonder if after watching the season unravel as a result of the defense completely falling apart in 06 as he had nothing but cast offs to throw to trying desperately to keep up with a high powered Indy offense if Brady's mindset didn't change.

 

[PatriotsQ8]

I agree with RhodyPatriot's comments, which is why I decided to make this account, so that I could express my views as well.

The NFL rules changes should not be used as an excuse for why the post-2005 NE Patriots became more QB-centric and more committed to passing plays.

Just because the NFL tackled/reduced some of that unnecessary excessive roughness, which past defenses used to exhibit when defending passing plays, does not automatically mean that every NFL team should now just fire the ball like a slingshot on every given ocassion.

Obviously not all teams are blessed with good quarterbacks and are therefore forced to diversify their offensive play with a little bit of running here and there.

But even teams with good quarterbacks should use some running too, or at least throw some of those nice 3 yard dart passes and consume a bit of time on the ball possession.

Look at the 2009/10 NO Saints team. They had a good quarterback, and they still do, but they also had an amazing running back, Reggie Bush. And with that combination, they stomped the Colts.

The Baltimore Ravens, who are traditionally known to be a running team instead of passing team (although Flacco added a bit of passing flair to their offensive display since joining), would have probably had a field day against the Giants.

I think the Patriots were good enough to beat the Giants but perhaps the whole feeling of "getting revenge" ended up putting more pressure on them.

They just need to spice it up a little. Do a bit of long passing, a bit of short passing, increase the running game by 3 folds at least. Be a little unpredictable, etc. Patriots should still continue being an overall passing team. It's not like I'm asking them to become a predominantly running team like the Ravens or anything.

But just add a bit more to the running game and we're good to go.

 

[PatsFan24]

I have no doubt that Peyton Manning hits Gronkowski for the TD on that INT in the 4th quarter.

Peyton Manning couldn't even get on the field this year. Yet he would have made the play? Come on man. Pull your head out of your ass.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Can anyone tell me why we barely, if ever, run screens anymore? I'm downright envious of the screens that the Saints run with Sproles, why can't we do the same with Woodhead?

 

[Nordberg]

Just another reminder never to click on anything CHFF!

Scott Kacsmar....AKA......StillSwinging

General NFL

Go ahead and read some of his posts....The guy never stops taking shots at Brady and the Patriots

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

TB's performance this past Sunday was not a great performance. He had moments of greatness and some moments of poor play. I don't need read an article to know that. The standard also applies to BB and the rest of the team.

Bottom line: The Patriots came within a play or two from winning the SB. This is about as good as can be expected (and that is pretty damn good). But if winning the SB requires TB playing every playoff game with hall of fame greatness, we're probably in trouble. TB can and should be expected to give solid performances that is complementary to the rest of the team's performance. IMHO that is what can be realistically expected of TB in the playoffs -- hopefully that includes one crucial drive at the right time.

Lastly, what I would point out is this: Teams that win the SB get solid play from the QB and the whole team. TB and the team came very close to that standard but they were not quite there. But the championship winner sometimes also catch the breaks. The Giants were the team in this years playoffs that caught the breaks. That is no disrespect to the Giants; the Patriots had years where some breaks got them over the hump. But GB to SF to the Patriots, the Giants caught more breaks. If the Patriots get a critical break, they win this game and all the talk about the Patriots is far different. Again, no disrespect to the Giants -- imho catching breaks and doing something with them is the mark of a championship team.

 

[pherein]

I thought Tom Played fine. I saw the OL have problems, RB's being stuffed, and WR/TE dropping critical well thrown passes. Correct me if Im wrong. And no Welker was not expected to catch that ball, but Tom did put it in the only place he could. I don't fault welker. Hern should have made that easy catch for a 1st.

 

[PittPatriot]

1. Watch the TD to Woodhead....that was a pretty tight window.

Yes, it was a nice threw in a tough spot. The whole play was run well with the O-line doing a great job giving him ample time.

2. Was the deep ball to Gronk - when he had a safer play to Hernandez to the right - a sign of "playing not to lose" or "playing to put the nail in the coffin" (i.e., "playing to win")?[/QUOTE]

The last 2 times Brady when for the "nail in the coffin" he threw 2 picks (deep to Slater in AFCCG and the duck to Gronk in SB). For a guy who throws the best 7 yard pass in football, TB's attempts at the the nail in the coffin has not gone our way (of late).

All week long, as people marveled at the Manningham catch - it made me try and recall ONE GREAT THROW Tom has in the playoffs…or really any of that sort, post-Randy…I cannot seem to come up with one.

 

[ivanvamp]

Yes, it was a nice threw in a tough spot. The whole play was run well with the O-line doing a great job giving him ample time.

2. Was the deep ball to Gronk - when he had a safer play to Hernandez to the right - a sign of "playing not to lose" or "playing to put the nail in the coffin" (i.e., "playing to win")?

The last 2 times Brady when for the "nail in the coffin" he threw 2 picks (deep to Slater in AFCCG and the duck to Gronk in SB). For a guy who throws the best 7 yard pass in football, TB's attempts at the the nail in the coffin has not gone our way (of late).

All week long, as people marveled at the Manningham catch - it made me try and recall ONE GREAT THROW Tom has in the playoffs…or really any of that sort, post-Randy…I cannot seem to come up with one.[/QUOTE]

Re-watch the Pats' last drive. The 4th down pass to Branch was amazing on a number of levels. First, Brady was being absolutely pressured like crazy. He somehow escaped and then threw a laser to Branch on the sideline. Not only did it save a 4th and 16, he got out of bounds. That was a great throw and a great play by Brady with the season on the line.

 

[PittPatriot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLNGVhpI_C8

Re-watch the Pats' last drive. The 4th down pass to Branch was amazing on a number of levels. First, Brady was being absolutely pressured like crazy. He somehow escaped and then threw a laser to Branch on the sideline. Not only did it save a 4th and 16, he got out of bounds. That was a great throw and a great play by Brady with the season on the line.

I just watched it again (see link) and I agree, it was a great throw…but I think with the game more or less decided the Giants were trying to just stay in front of the receivers…Branch had a nice cushion there.

Perhaps that is my point…so many playoff games but the throw that comes to mind is a 16yard curl pattern with the game more or less over.

Don't get me wrong - he is still the only QB I want on my team…but to say he is a clutch postseason QB/GOAT, whatever is just not true (to me). He is the best pre-snap QB ever and makes great reads…maybe I just am forgetting some great throws that you guys may remember.

 

[Triumph]

Without Tom Brady NE isnt even in the Super Bowl this season.

 

[Mack Herron]

Without Tom Brady NE isnt even in the Super Bowl this season.

Yes. And without his safety and int we win it.

 

[sevengables_2207]

As i said, put any QB in the playoffs for a decade straight and things will even out.

This.

In the playoffs, there is no paucity of solid teams with good defensive front sevens who are able to get pressure on the opposing quarterback. Any quarterback under consistent pressure will struggle for portions of games, and Brady to his credit has played pretty well overall despite facing some really good front sevens in the postseason.