Brady's Fumble Against Buffalo...

[marty]

Just went over to PFW and didn't see it - is there a way to check out this photo?

Sorry, I mixed up the Herald with todays PFW! The frontal facemask photo was in yesterday's Herald.

 

[SamBam39]

Yeah I saw that one on the Herald site yesterday but I couldn't find it so I settled for this one. Not as good an angle, but still clearly visable that his hand is grabbing Bradys facemask. I had to listen to Bills fans cry all day yesterday until I finally pulled this picture out and said "look, we may have gotten a favorable spot or two, but are you prepared to take seven points off the board for the Bills?"

actually, regarding the favorable spots, that 4th and 1 that looked like a gift, they later showed another angle and his knee was clearly down well before the first down, so they don't have a point.

I don't mind a ref missing a facemask - it happens.

I'm just surprised BB didn't at least give it a chance on the forward pass - no fumble thing. I realize you need indisputable evidence, but we've all seen that ref's will chance a call if they think they see brady's arm coming forward.
since it was onlt the first half - all the more reason you can afford to gamble a timeout.
oh well.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Compare Sunday's lack of indisputable photo evidence with this clear example and IT is still controversial!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtpKsG-s_nw

-phil (loves that Al Davis & the Raiders are living in Hell)

 

[SamBam39]

Compare Sunday's lack of indisputable photo evidence with this clear example and IT is still controversial!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtpKsG-s_nw

-phil (loves that Al Davis & the Raiders are living in Hell)

exactly - that's why you should always give it a shot!

 

[Dragda]

The ball went backward out of his hand. Physical laws of motion would point to a fumble. I couldn't tell from replay, or replaying it slowly with TIVO, if his arm was going forward. The ball was definitely backward which leads me to believe it was a fumble. Spikes didn't hit the ball.

 

[PATSNUTme]

"Incontrovertible video evidence."

Have you looked at it again? Who blew the protection on that play? Mankins or the RB?

 

[Welker83]

Even if it wasn't a fumble it was a backwards pass, the equivalent of a fumble. Same as the Carolina game last year.

Yeah thats what i was thinking..i originally thought BB would challenge, but it was backwards no matter what...I bet some one got chewed out on that one...

 

[arrellbee]

Have you looked at it again? Who blew the protection on that play? Mankins or the RB?

It was a strange combination of quite a few things that all together spelled disaster for the Pats.

The Buffalo defensive line set was a little unusual. You had one DT over Koppen as a NT and the other DT over Mankins. Both DEs were spread very wide with the right DE out even beyond the TE. So this was going to force Light to pull way out to pick up the right DE. This left a HUGE gap for Spikes to run directly thru Light's initial position totally free.

It was also somewhat of a strange offensive line set. (I believe it was Watson on the offensive left side - there isn't a clear frame to see a number but I think I get a hint of a 4 as the second number). In any case, the TE was down in a in a three point while Light was not. The play obviously called for the left TE to run an immediate route. You could question whether the TE should have read the defense and adusted to try to block Spikes, but I think his initial position was far enough out to the side that he wouldn't have had a chance to get a piece of him anyway. And the RDE was far enough out that he didn't have a block on him either - beside, Light pulled immediately so that wouldn't have helped anyway.

Combine that with the fact that the DTs rushed to the left, thereby getting Koppen and Mankiins to block away from the gap opened up where Light was, and there was nobody remotely close enough to get a piece of Spikes.

Combine that also with Dillon releasing immediately so there wasn't even a back to do blitz pickup.

You wonder if Koppen or Brady shouldn't have changed the O-line blocking assignments or something or whether Brady should have held Dillon in or whether he should have checked to another play that called for a run or something else.

Overall, you had a great defensive scheme and play called against the offensive play that was called.

But the end result of the whole combination of those things resulted in Spikes getting totally unimpeded to Brady.

 

[Amnorix]

Tuck or not, if the ball goes backwards, which it did, then it's a fumble. Whether he clutched, double clutched, or triple clutched makes no difference at all.

Clearly, without doubt, absolutely, a fumble. Not remotely close to NOT being a fumble.

The facemask thing is separate. That I won't argue about. But the tuck rule gets us nowhere on this one.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Have you looked at it again? Who blew the protection on that play? Mankins or the RB?

Brady, he sets protections too - seriously, I haven't looked at it yet, I consider it a low priority review because it was one of those first game fluke things IMO and other then Tommy getting beaten up, I can't get too upset by Buffalo making a good play now and again. If anything, this was a really good game to wake the O-line up and get them a little po'd at themselves (and I'll bet Scar was sweetness and light in the meeting room ). I think this was a good 'trial by fire' initiation for the whole team and this season is going to be well worth watching as these guys get past the shell shock and casualties to put their game face on - Bruschi is coming back and a Vince is coming with him!

 

[patological]

Herald photo.

 

[godef]

How was that any different than the 'Tuck Call' against the Raiders?

He was hit during the process of throwing and his arm had started slightly forward.

BIG difference!

In the "tuck rule" ruling, Brady's arm definitely had gone forward, and in fact he had just begun to draw the ball back to his body. The key to the ruling was that he had not completed bringing the ball to his body, and by the NFL rulebook, this was a fumble.

In the Buffalo fumble, it is arguable whether he ever began throwing the ball forward. Yes, you do see his arm coming forward, but had he already lost the ball by then? You could make the case that starting his arm forward caused the ball to jam against a defender and come loose, but it was very close. I wondered why we didn't at least try to review that, but it's history now.

 

[flutie2phelan]

Tremendous conversation, gentlemen!

I missed the whole facemask deal ... wondered only why No Challenge?

 

[Brownfan80]

Tremendous conversation, gentlemen!

I missed the whole facemask deal ... wondered only why No Challenge?

They couldn't challenge the fumble, it was a fumble. And I don't believe you can challenge an uncalled penalty for the facemask. They missed it and that was the end of it, from my understanding.

 

[Dragda]

Brady, he sets protections too - seriously, I haven't looked at it yet, I consider it a low priority review because it was one of those first game fluke things IMO and other then Tommy getting beaten up, I can't get too upset by Buffalo making a good play now and again. If anything, this was a really good game to wake the O-line up and get them a little po'd at themselves (and I'll bet Scar was sweetness and light in the meeting room ). I think this was a good 'trial by fire' initiation for the whole team and this season is going to be well worth watching as these guys get past the shell shock and casualties to put their game face on - Bruschi is coming back and a Vince is coming with him!

Typically centers call the line protections. This is the first I have heard that Brady sets the protections. I know he points out the MIKE.

He has too many other play calling responsibilities to also call out protections. If the play is ill suited for the call in the huddle, he'll change it. But I have never heard he calls out protections. Granted, I only surmised what terminology they use by sideline microphones and a three year old playbook I have a copy of.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Typically centers call the line protections. This is the first I have heard that Brady sets the protections. I know he points out the MIKE.

He has too many other play calling responsibilities to also call out protections. If the play is ill suited for the call in the huddle, he'll change it. But I have never heard he calls out protections. Granted, I only surmised what terminology they use by sideline microphones and a three year old playbook I have a copy of.

It's easier to see on tape, but Tommy does it on every play to some extent or another. He has a better view of the field than Dan, he needs to read the blitzs and direct the skill players, pointing out the Mike is actually a good example, that sets the field for Dan from Tommy's vantage point.

As you watch the games you see Tommy pointing out players while TEs and receivers join him in pointing, some of that may be a smokescreen, but blitz risks are being identified and biltz pick-up assignments shared around. I also seem to recall him taking part of the blame for not seeing that blitz before the snap in his post game press conference. In the military you have a guy "in charge" who is responsible for everything. He delegates some of those responsibilities to subordinates to manage his work load, but he also ensures they're being done right or the whole team suffers when a blitz gets through. I recall a couple occasions last season where Tommy motioned Givens in, from wideout to flanker, with a team showing a max-blitz look. You will also occasionally see him do a mini-Peyton moving down the line and leaning over the Tackle or Guard and specifically pointing out someone to them.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

And here I thought he was just pointing and saying "Yo MAMA!" or worse.

 

[arrellbee]

It's easier to see on tape, but Tommy does it on every play to some extent or another. He has a better view of the field than Dan, he needs to read the blitzs and direct the skill players, pointing out the Mike is actually a good example, that sets the field for Dan from Tommy's vantage point.

As you watch the games you see Tommy pointing out players while TEs and receivers join him in pointing, some of that may be a smokescreen, but blitz risks are being identified and biltz pick-up assignments shared around. I also seem to recall him taking part of the blame for not seeing that blitz before the snap in his post game press conference. In the military you have a guy "in charge" who is responsible for everything. He delegates some of those responsibilities to subordinates to manage his work load, but he also ensures they're being done right or the whole team suffers when a blitz gets through. I recall a couple occasions last season where Tommy motioned Givens in, from wideout to flanker, with a team showing a max-blitz look. You will also occasionally see him do a mini-Peyton moving down the line and leaning over the Tackle or Guard and specifically pointing out someone to them.

Excellent perspective.

I might add that Brady probably has the call on whether the back releases immediately, has some blitz pick-up responsibility before releasing, or stays in completely to help on blitz pick-up. In this particular play, Dillon released immediately - and it was even to the opposite side from Spikes' blitz lane.

And if it's a play call change to get a better match against the defensive scheme, that is obviously Brady's call.

 

[Hok]

Even if it wasn't a fumble it was a backwards pass, the equivalent of a fumble. Same as the Carolina game last year.

Bingo. It was a fumble no matter how you slice, it even if his arm was moving forward.

As has been mentioned though, it should've been a 5 or 15-yard gain for the Pats, since Spikes facemasked Brady.