BELICHICK IS TO BLAME.

[Deus Irae]

Well, two things here. First, the poster who I was responding to claimed that "Belichick traded Welker," so we know that's not the truth. The "blame it on Belichick game" has been taken to new heights this week.

Second, I think it's up for debate over whether or not they ever offered him a "legit" deal as you say. I fully understand that you do not believe they did, but there are some who look at the reports of 3/20 and 2/16 and believe they did; especially considering that it was more than DEN's 2/12 offer.

Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough proof one way or another, so there's going to be a divide on this one. Personally, I think the big difference was that the front office saw fit to include the 10m dollar franchise tag, and Welker's camp did not--but that's just my opinion.

I'm not rehashing all the Welker stuff. It was clearly not fair dealing by the Patriots. I demonstrated that time and again, using a multitude of reports. I'm tired of having to argue something that obvious to people. It's like having to explain sunlight = warmth or water = wet. So, when people spout the nonsense about it, I'll call them out and move on.

 

[supafly]

I'm not rehashing all the Welker stuff. It was clearly not fair dealing by the Patriots. I demonstrated that time and again, using a multitude of reports. I'm tired of having to argue something that obvious to people. It's like having to explain sunlight = warmth or water = wet. So, when people spout the nonsense about it, I'll call them out and move on.

I don't want you to do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable or that tends to get you hot under the collar, so you don't have to rehash anything you don't want to. I was responding to a poster who took it too far by suggesting that Belichick was to blame for "trading Welker," which we all know isn't correct.

As far as the financial offers to Welker, I think those have been addressed numerous time and do point to the fact that he received at least one/two better offers than he signed for in DEN, so I understand your frustration--even if we're seeing it from different sides.

One thing that I'd definitely meet you in the middle on is that they didn't step up for the 2013 offer when Welker came back to them with Denver's proposal, and for that we agree in blaming the Patriots. That is why I claimed that I believe that Belichick was taking into account the 10m dollar franchise tag from the previous year for his "2/10" offer (as he saw it to be in line with the previous "3/20" offer that Welker turned down).

That said, I disagree with your notion that they didn't offer him anything fair previously, so we'll have to disagree and move on. In the end it is very unfortunate that they couldn't get something done, but we've seen it happen plenty of times--right or wrong. Some work out, and some don't.

 

[PATS16N0]

I'm not rehashing all the Welker stuff. It was clearly not fair dealing by the Patriots. I demonstrated that time and again, using a multitude of reports. I'm tired of having to argue something that obvious to people. It's like having to explain sunlight = warmth or water = wet. So, when people spout the nonsense about it, I'll call them out and move on.

I was always on Belichick's side with the Welker break down but recent events has really opened my eyes to the fact that Belichick has people problems. You were right. I was wrong. The Patriots blew it with Welker and not the other way around.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't want you to do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable or that tends to get you hot under the collar, so you don't have to rehash anything you don't want to. I was responding to a poster who took it too far by suggesting that Belichick was to blame for "trading Welker," which we all know isn't correct.

As far as the financial offers to Welker, I think those have been addressed numerous time and do point to the fact that he received at least one/two better offers than he signed for in DEN, so I understand your frustration--even if we're seeing it from different sides.

One thing that I'd definitely meet you in the middle on is that they didn't step up for the 2013 offer when Welker came back to them with Denver's proposal, and for that we agree in blaming the Patriots. That is why I claimed that I believe that Belichick was taking into account the 10m dollar franchise tag from the previous year for his "2/10" offer (as he saw it to be in line with the previous "3/20" offer that Welker turned down).

That said, I disagree with your notion that they didn't offer him anything fair previously, so we'll have to disagree and move on. In the end it is very unfortunate that they couldn't get something done, but we've seen it happen plenty of times--right or wrong. Some work out, and some don't.

Your second paragraph is what pisses me off. So what if the deal was better than Denver's (It wasn't, but that's irrelevant)? The Denver deal was a below market deal in a down year for contracts. That's like saying your employer didn't screw you because, while you were worth $100k on the market in a normal year, they deliberately screwed you with a one year option in order to negotiate with you in a year where they knew you were only going to be able to make $60k on the market.

Bad faith dealing is bad faith dealing. The Patriots are famous for just this sort of crap, yet people around here continually gulp the koolaid and buy the nonsense.

Newsflash:

Seymour wasn't wrong for wanting more money
Branch wasn't wrong for wanting to get more money (He was wrong for saying he wouldn't hold out and then holding out, but that's a separate issue)
Mankins wasn't wrong for being pissed about the way the Patriots tried to take advantage of the one year CBA loophole in order to stiff him on his money
This is the team that made Rodney Harrison take a pay cut when the team had more than $8 million in cap space, in 2007.

These things aren't the fault of the players. They are what this team does.

 

[supafly]

I do agree with Deus that they shouldn't have been so stubborn at the end, and that does place the blame on them.

However, I also disagree with the notion that they never offered him a fair deal, which is why I pointed to the disagreement over the 10m dollar franchise tag money.

 

[supafly]

Your second paragraph is what pisses me off.

I don't think much of anything that I say should be pissing you off. Your issue would be more with the team and its practices, rather than my opinion that a 3/20 contract offer was "fair."

In the end, I agree with you that they could've come up and chose not to--and that now we're hurting from it.

 

[IllegalContact]

I still think BB is trying to get Brady to quit

However thing end, we will all be saying 'we never saw that kind of breakup before'

 

[PATS16N0]

Your second paragraph is what pisses me off. So what if the deal was better than Denver's (It wasn't, but that's irrelevant)? The Denver deal was a below market deal in a down year for contracts. That's like saying your employer didn't screw you because, while you were worth $100k on the market in a normal year, they deliberately screwed you with a one year option in order to negotiate with you in a year where they knew you were only going to be able to make $60k on the market.

Bad faith dealing is bad faith dealing. The Patriots are famous for just this sort of crap, yet people around here continually gulp the koolaid and buy the nonsense.

Newsflash:

Seymour wasn't wrong for wanting more money
Branch wasn't wrong for wanting to get more money (He was wrong for saying he wouldn't hold out and then holding out, but that's a separate issue)
Mankins wasn't wrong for being pissed about the way the Patriots tried to take advantage of the one year CBA loophole in order to stiff him on his money
This is the team that made Rodney Harrison take a pay cut when the team had more than $8 million in cap space, in 2007.

These things aren't the fault of the players. They are what this team does.

Boom.

A lot of us trusted Belichick when Brady was overcoming he and Kraft's BS but now the wheels are coming off the wagon and I'm starting to wonder if Trent Dilfer was right when he said the little known secret in the NFL is that the Patriots just want to get to the tournament to put asses in the seats and make money.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this new generation of Roger Goodell style owners are conspiring to fan the championships around to increase profits nationwide since the Patriots winning 8 Superbowls would be miserable for everyone not on this forum. Not saying this is what I believe. I'm simply saying I wouldn't be surprised. I mean London teams? 19 week schedules? Extended play offs?

Would it really surprise anyone?

I was pretty upset with just about everyone working for ESPN on Monday night because of our loss, because I was expecting tap dances, but can anyone honestly say they believe the Patriots are `attacking the championship`? Elway is. Seattle was. The 49'ers were. Are we?

 

[IllegalContact]

Boom.

A lot of us trusted Belichick when Brady was overcoming he and Kraft's BS but now the wheels are coming off the wagon and I'm starting to wonder if Trent Dilfer was right when he said the little known secret in the NFL is that the Patriots just want to get to the tournament to put asses in the seats and make money.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this new generation of Roger Goodell style owners are conspiring to fan the championships around to increase profits nationwide since the Patriots winning 8 Superbowls would be miserable for everyone not on this forum. Not saying this is what I believe. I'm simply saying I wouldn't be surprised. I mean London teams? 19 week schedules? Extended play offs?

Would it really surprise anyone?

I was pretty upset with just about everyone working for ESPN on Monday night because of our loss, because I was expecting tap dances, but can anyone honestly say they believe the Patriots are `attacking the championship`? Elway is. Seattle was. The 49'ers were. Are we?

Oh jeezus......days of our lives is on in the afternoon

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think much of anything that I say should be pissing you off. Your issue would be more with the team and its practices, rather than my opinion that a 3/20 contract offer was "fair."

In the end, I agree with you that they could've come up and chose not to--and that now we're hurting from it.

I don't mean you're personally pissing me off with it. I mean that the second paragraph is where people hang their hat, but it's a misleading argument at best ("Better than Denver deal" when comparing the deals with different approaches yields a different 'better' outcome, because of the incentives issue), and a red herring in the first place (Welker turned down a better offer elsewhere, reportedly Tennessee, in order to stay with a top QB).

My apologies for my post causing confusion on that issue.

 

[supafly]

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this new generation of Roger Goodell style owners are conspiring to fan the championships around to increase profits nationwide since the Patriots winning 8 Superbowls would be miserable for everyone not on this forum.

You are claiming that there is a conspiracy to fix football to spread around the wealth of championships? Is that what I'm understanding?

I was pretty upset with just about everyone working for ESPN on Monday night because of our loss, because I was expecting tap dances, but can anyone honestly say they believe the Patriots are `attacking the championship`? Elway is. Seattle was. The 49'ers were. Are we?

I think the problem was that they went 12-4 last year with a fairly successful season (where they obviously overachieved, and probably were closer to a "real" 10-6), and they felt that keeping some core guys like Edelman, adding Revis and Browner, and getting Mayo, Gronk, Wilfork etc back to health would likely allow them to remain competitive.

Unfortunately, it's looking like they should've made an extra move or two + not let Mankins go. I think the 12-4 record and the success that they saw helped to mask their symptoms, and made it more difficult to assess and "treat" the problems.

 

[Deus Irae]

...I was pretty upset with just about everyone working for ESPN on Monday night because of our loss, because I was expecting tap dances, but can anyone honestly say they believe the Patriots are `attacking the championship`? Elway is. Seattle was. The 49'ers were. Are we?

Kraft has publicly stated that the Patriots don't take that sort of 'all in' approach.

 

[PATS16N0]

You are claiming that there is a conspiracy to fix football to spread around the wealth of championships? Is that what I'm understanding?

If the Patriots won the Superbowl every other season, national interest would drop, and so would profits, which are shared. I'm simply saying it wouldn't surprise me in the least if ownership across the league believed greater diversity in Superbowl teams is best for business, and conspired towards that end.
I can't really believe that this latest generation of football owners care about the sport like their predecessors did, and are more interested in maximizing profits above all else.

Nobody can convince me that the integrity of the game is paramount when they want to expand the league to Europe, let half the league into the post season and extend the season by 2 games.

 

[supafly]

If the Patriots won the Superbowl every other season, national interest would drop, and so would profits, which are shared. I'm simply saying it wouldn't surprise me in the least if ownership across the league believed greater diversity in Superbowl teams is best for business, and conspired towards that end.
I can't really believe that this latest generation of football owners care about the sport like their predecessors did, and are more interested in maximizing profits above all else.

Nobody can convince me that the integrity of the game is paramount when they want to expand the league to Europe, let half the league into the post season and extend the season by 2 games.

I'm all for giving respect to people's different opinions, and I agree with your reasoning found in your very last paragraph.

I do believe that you may be running a bit far with the whole idea, but who the hell really knows?

 

[PATS16N0]

I'm all for giving respect to people's different opinions, and I agree with your reasoning found in your very last paragraph.

I do believe that you may be running a bit far with the whole idea, but who the hell really knows?

Well, again, I'm not saying this is what I believe without concrete evidence. I'm simply saying it wouldn't surprise me in the least, and I think Kraft's "aw shucks I'm a Patriot fan just like you" is a load of crap.
It would make sense from a business model perspective. ESPN is also a sock puppet for the NFL and they're always promoting something new rather than the old. They hate on Tom now because Tom has been dominating with the Patriots forever. I'd be willing to bet If Peyton was still a Colt they wouldn't be nearly as slobberish as they have been, and I'd be willing to bet if Brady went to Cleveland he would suddenly be the GOAT again. In 2010 Rodgers was the best QB of all time. In 2011, Crapernick was better than Joe Montana.
In 2014, Seattle was the best defense of all time.

Etc, etc, etc.

 

[supafly]

My apologies for my post causing confusion on that issue.

No problem, buddy.

We've disagreed before, and I'm sure we will again in the future. Like many of the subjects that we don't totally see eye to eye on, there are solid arguments made from you which do have merit, so I hardly mean it to sound like an "I'm right and you're wrong" approach.

 

[PATS16N0]

Just thinking out loud. Don't want to take the thread into conspiracy theory land.

 

[supafly]

Just thinking out loud. Don't want to take the thread into conspiracy theory land.

I gotcha, dude. It sounded pretty far fetched at first, but after you admitting that you're just throwing ideas around, I understand where you're coming from.

 

[Danger Zone]

Just thinking out loud. Don't want to take the thread into conspiracy theory land.

I'm pretty sure the Government has officially denied the existence of Conspiracy Land..

 

[ausbacker]

Boom.

A lot of us trusted Belichick when Brady was overcoming he and Kraft's BS but now the wheels are coming off the wagon and I'm starting to wonder if Trent Dilfer was right when he said the little known secret in the NFL is that the Patriots just want to get to the tournament to put asses in the seats and make money.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this new generation of Roger Goodell style owners are conspiring to fan the championships around to increase profits nationwide since the Patriots winning 8 Superbowls would be miserable for everyone not on this forum. Not saying this is what I believe. I'm simply saying I wouldn't be surprised. I mean London teams? 19 week schedules? Extended play offs?

Would it really surprise anyone?

I was pretty upset with just about everyone working for ESPN on Monday night because of our loss, because I was expecting tap dances, but can anyone honestly say they believe the Patriots are `attacking the championship`? Elway is. Seattle was. The 49'ers were. Are we?

I'm not going to discount something as such because businessmen like money however, billionaires, especially self-made billionaires, despite their outward appearance, are ultra-competitive. Kraft will want his team winning the Super Bowl. Not only would it make him a lot of money but it confirms he's one of, if not the biggest owner in the sport.

Never underestimate ego.