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Been thinking about the defense

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by DaBruinz, Feb 28, 2008.

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  1. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ok.. Many people have said that we need to get younger at LB. I don't disagree there. The Pats are definitely going to get younger at CB as well since Gay and Samuel are both gone.

    So, I've been thinking about the conundrum the Pats have faced and the fact that many people (rightly or wrongly) blame the age of the linebacking corps for the losses in the AFCCG in 2006 and this year in the SB. Would the Pats getting corners who can start off in press coverage and then dropping back into the Cover 3 help the front 7 out? Hobbs actually did this pretty well his rookie year. He wasn't able to do it much in 2006 and, for whatever reason, the Patriots played a real soft Cover 3 in 2007 and it cost them many a TD in the Red Zone. Including in the SB.

    If they had 2 corners who could move like this, do you all think it would help the linebackers by buying them time to get to the QB?
     
  2. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    I think you have made a good point that having better DB's in coverage will allow the front seven to put more pressure on the QB. I said this in an earlier post, but I think the Pats need corners that can press at the line like Ty Law, Otis Smith and Tyrone Pool did. What made the past defenses so good was the ability to disrupt the timing of the offenses. Thus allowing the frong seven to put pressure on the QB. However, I haven't really seen that for the past three years mainly because the Pats DB's play so far off. Too many recievers were getting free releases off the line, making it much easier for QB's to time their throws. In the end, I think the Pats need to get younger/faster at LB and more physical at defense back. So with my first pick I would like to take Gholston, Groves or even Marcus Howard (projects to be an outside LB who ran a 4.47 and had 10 1/2 sacks at Georgia last year) later in the draft.
     
  3. Deus Irae

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    Samuel and Gay are young. It's quite possible that this team will get older at cornerback. All it takes, for example, is the signing of Ty Law.
     
  4. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Let's not lose sight of the fact that they did get away with some muggings before the rule was changed (still love 'em, they played hard to the rules!) but most of the line fighting that made them successful would likely get them flagged 50% of the time the way some of these games are called and the way the rules have been emphasized. I agree I'd like them to be more physical, but I'm afraid that physicality might work against them in todays game.
     
  5. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    they need a dominating pass rusher who demands constant double teams. an ILB who can blitz inside well would be helpful too.

    I don't think we can blame this on the corners.
     
  6. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Pro Bowl Player

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    The major problem with the New England Patriots pass rush is a lack of pressure up the middle. Most of the New England Patriots sacks were a result of pressure from the outside.

    Meanwhile there is an old adage, live by the blitz .... die by the blitz.
     
  7. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I guess the Giants won by it
     
  8. cstjohn17

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    The Pats had a more rounded pass rush when Thomas was inside, between Green, Vrabel and Colvin they got pretty good pressure on the edges and with Thomas coming up the middle the rush was very good.

    I think the defense played very well all year, if we get the same production in 2008, 17 PPG, we should be pretty happy. Remember if Samuel, Harrison or Merriweather catches one of those passes on the last drive we would be singing the defenses praises.

    As far as press or soft coverage I think the Pats will play mostly the same style as 2006 & 2007 with a little more press added in depending on the personnel. I don't expect a dramatic switch.

    The age of the LBs is not as important as their lack of speed, total inability to cover a RB or TE beyond 5 yards put a lot of pressure on the safeties to pinch towards the middle. The CBs directed WRs to the middle but because the secondary was covering up for the LBs there were soft spots as a WR was handed off to the S.

    I hope they focus on the front seven, a dominant front seven can make teams one dimensional and really help out a secondary that seems destined to be weaker in 2008.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  9. PonyExpress

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    I think it's really the opposite. I think the corners were fine and the 4th quarter pass rush has been deficient. Colvin never got the pre-injury explosion back, and no other Pat OLB has the ability to consistently beat an OTackle one on one, instead relying on scheme and blitz. In contrast, Merriman wrecked Ugoh in the 4th quarter, stopping P. Manning on the last 2 Colt drives in the playoffs. As someone else pointed out, in the last few season deciding games, the opposing team has scored a TD on its last drive. The Pats desperately need a Ware/Merriman/J.Taylor/Freeney/Umenyiora to take the pressure off defensive coaches and the secondary. We are in ideal position to acquire such a player at #7, with the leverage to move up if necessary, or to move down and still snag a player like Groves. I remain high on Hobbs, and feel comfortable with him at cb.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  10. MrBigglesWorth

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    I agree. They need a stud playmaker. I think Colvin was pretty good, solid, not dominating, but did make some plays.
     
  11. dhamz

    dhamz In the Starting Line-Up

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    The Giants won by killing the offensive line with a 4 man rush the majority of the time. That is their 4 killing the Pats 5 and 6 blockers. It wasn't the blitz.
     
  12. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, they didn't. The Giants weren't blitzing. They were using stunts quite a bit and the Pats O-line failed to adjust.
     
  13. MrBigglesWorth

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    Mitchell blitzed and he's a LB
     
  14. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How can you say that the corners were fine? I'm sorry, but the CBs sitting on the goal line when the opposing offense is INSIDE the 10 is NOT my idea of them being fine. Inside the 10, you've got to shrink the cushion and keep them from getting open. You give them a chance to get up a head of steam and they can easily get into the endzone. See David Tyree against Asante Samuel.

    Now, I'm sorry but many people have MISSED the boat on the 3-4 and how it functions or they have forgotten. The object is for the D-line to put pressure up the middle, keeping the O-line busy, while the LBs come around the ends to seal the QB up. Having CBs who can start off in the press and drop back into the zone prevents the short passes that killed the Pats in the Red Zone and also buys the D-line and LBs time to get to the LBs.

    Now, PE, I respect you, but why are you mentioning guys like Umenyoira, Freeney and Taylor who are 4-3 DEs? We don't NEED them. THe Pats need OLBs who can put pressure on the QB. We need the D-line to play like it did in 2005 and 2006. If Jarvis wasn't so damn heavy, I'd say put him at OLB. He's a great pass rusher. Unfortunately, he's a one trick pony for the most part.

    Yes, getting a OLB would be nice. Changing the scheme to put more pressure on the WRs would be nice as well. The corners help buy the time for the D-line and LBs. The improvement in the D-line and LBs help the CBs be able to take more chances on jumping balls and getting in the face early to knock the receivers off their routes.
     
  15. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, Mitchell didn't blitz. Blitzing means sending more players than there are on the O-line. Mitchell came in on stunts.
     
  16. ALP

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    most certainly did NOT....

    the giants were getting to us with a 4 man front....they didnt really need to blitz
     
  17. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Pro Bowl Player

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    First, I seriously doubt Belichick will draft another defensive lineman since six are under contract for the 2008 NFL Season.

    Second, the New England Patriots just cut Rosevelt Colvin, thus weakening the front seven not improving it.

    Third, the New England Patriot don't have that much room under the salary cap to maneuver in free agency especially when wide receiver Randy Moss needs to be, by far, the New England Patriots top priority. Meanwhile, the New England Patriots need to seriously consider re-signing wide receivers Jabar Gaffney and Kelley Washington since nobody really knows what to expect from wide receiver Chad Jackson in 2008.

    Finally, the New England Patriots will need to nail down their first four draft picks to take into account defensive personnel losses in Rosevelt Colvin, Asante Samuel, Randall Gay, Oscar "never played a down" Lua, Chad "charred" Scott, et cetera.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  18. jczxohn1

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    My thing with the drafting of LB's hasn't been the necessity of getting younger, it's just been getting players with more upside. While I choke up a bit to think of criticizing BB/Peoli in the draft, it seems they are unwilling to invest in a first day LB, being too impatient to allow them to learn the system. Consequently, they have drafted 1 or 2 in the 6th or 7th rd., and have come up with nothing but ST'ers or situational players like TBC. My point is, the development period is 2-3 yrs either way. They need to be picking from a better gene pool, IMO. Tom Brady's defensive counterpart isn't going to be found in the 6th or 7th rd, even if he was.
     
  19. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress In the Starting Line-Up

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    You're right. My post was a bit sloppy. I think the problem with the cbs had something to do with coaching, and Collier's firing was evidence of that. They should not have been giving up the cushion they did, as you say. I believe the Pats made a conscious decision to go with smaller, quicker cbs after the Ty Law rule, and also to compensate for the slower coverage ILBs and SSs they have been using in recent years by adding quickness and speed elsewhere. Smaller, quicker cbs are obviously less effective and less comfortable in press coverage against big receivers like a Plaxico, Toomer, Tyree, VJackson. Maybe if the Pats can get quicker at ILB and SS, they can get bigger and stronger at CB, and more effectively press- as you recommend- while maintaining overall on-field speed. That change has to be weighed against a possible drop off in run defense if the ILBs become less effective standing up guards.

    As far as the Freeney/Umenyiora examples, IMO Umenyiora/Freeney and Merriman are very comparable players, the traditional "crash ends", athletic edge pass rushers who play weak side DE in the 4-3 and weak 3-4 OLB in the 3-4. They are able to beat an O-tackle straight up multiple times a game, relieving pressure on the coaching and the secondary. We all know that BB's Patriots created a coaching revolution in the NFL. It took the rest of the NFL by storm, but gradually our competitors are learning and adapting to survive, and our coaching advantage has decreased. In order to stay at the top the Pats need to rely less on scheme and more on pure talent. The acquisition of Moss IMO was an admission of that from the coaching staff last season. That is probably why I seem fixated on acquiring a dynamic pass rusher who can take some pressure off the defensive coaches.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
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