BB and Pash Rushers

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

BB and pass rushers - sounds like an oxymoron.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Watched the Georgia-Ga. Tech game last night and Morgan and the rest of the Tech D line got mauled. They were terrible, I think Georgia ran for over 300 yards against them. Those big SEC O lineman for Georgia blew up the Ga Tech D Line all night long.

BB values run stoppers highly in his defense and it is hard to see him drafting any of those kids after watching the tape of this game.

Ga Tech and Morgan however have a chance to redeem themselves as they play Clemson next week and Clemson rarely runs up the middle, they prefer to work the edges and if Morgan can set his edge with authority against a dynamic, but injured, back like Spiller, then that should go along ways toward redeeming himself.

Spiller will aboslutely run up the middle for Clemson...

Georgia spent the entire off-season basically saying that they would never lose to Tech and the option game. They had is schemed perfectly on defense.

As for the Tech defense, they got absolutely run over by a freshman RB. Morgan was invisible and Georgia does not have any O-lineman that will even be drafted. But the Pats don't want Morgan for run defense, this team needs a pass rush, badly. At the very least draft someone who might possible be able to rush the QB, the problem with the Pats is they haven't even drafted any pass rushers, since McGinest.

 

[cstjohn17]

Funny how we all now liked Matthews. Patsnutsme was his most vocal supporter that I can recall. I think many of us genuinely liked Matthews, but a lot us (certainly me, for one) had other guys we liked even more.

Ok, last time I do it to myself. But imagine how much better the Pats front seven would be with Seymour at DE and your pick of:
Matthews, Maualuga, Barwin


Warren, Wilfork, Seymour
TBC, Mayo, Guyton, Matthews

Not the Steel curtain but not too shabby.

Sigh, back to reality.

 

[mayoclinic]

Ok, last time I do it to myself. But imagine how much better the Pats front seven would be with Seymour at DE and your pick of:
Matthews, Maualuga, Barwin


Warren, Wilfork, Seymour
TBC, Mayo, Guyton, Matthews

Not the Steel curtain but not too shabby.

Sigh, back to reality.

Sorry to depress you more, but we could have kept Seymour and had one of Barwin/Matthews at OLB and one of Maualuga/Laurinaitis at ILB. We would have missed out on Brace and Chung, but we could have used the #97 pick used on McKenzie to draft either a DT or a safety. We would still have Tennessee's 2nd round pick in 2010 (traded for our #89 pick), and we would presumably have our original 2010 3rd and 5th round picks (traded for Derrick Burgess). That would be it if we had picked Matthews at 26. If we'd done the trade back with Green Bay and picked Barwin at 40 then we would also have Brandon Tate and Jacksonville's 2nd round pick in 2010.

Our front 7 could have been a DL of Seymour, Wilfork and Warren, and a LB corps of Thomas, Mayo Laurinaitis/Maualuga, and Matthews/Barwin.

As you say, not too shabby.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

As for the Tech defense, they got absolutely run over by a freshman RB. Morgan was invisible and Georgia does not have any O-lineman that will even be drafted. But the Pats don't want Morgan for run defense, this team needs a pass rush, badly. At the very least draft someone who might possible be able to rush the QB, the problem with the Pats is they haven't even drafted any pass rushers, since McGinest.

BB is a run defense first coach. That is how he thinks and that is why he passes on SO MANY pass rushers.

If you want to find a quick edge pass rusher that BB would think about drafting early, look for one that can set a hard edge on running plays and help hold off tackle runs to little or no gain.

Good luck on that, I have only seen 1 in the past three or four drafts, Quintin Groves, and BB passed on him.

But as for Morgan, here is what I do know, he has no suddenness or big time explosion. And cannot play/struggles against the run. Why the love this non=-Patriot type player?

 

[mayoclinic]

The more I think about it, the more I could see BB targeting one of 3 guys somewhere in the 2nd round:

1. Greg Romeus, Pitt (junior). 6'5" 265#, 4.70 speed. Very strong against the run, nonstop motor. Has only played for 4-5 years, still learning the game.

2. Jeremy Beal, Oklahoma (junior). 6'3" 260#, 4.70 speed. Came to Oklahoma as a linebacker, has mostly played DL but has played all over the field. Terrific motor, good in all phases of the game - setting the edge, pursuit, pass rushing, and coverage.

The 2009 All-Big 12 Defense | Bleacher Report

3. Austen Lane, Murray State (senior). 6'6" 260#, 4.65 speed. Division II kid who hasn't played against top competition but has tremendous upside and athleticism, with nice body control for a kid his height. Great motor, high character kid. Reminiscent of a young Jason Taylor, shows the ability to play in space.

Diamond Hunter: Murray State's Austen Lane - GoRacers.com—Official Web Site of Murray State Athletics

All of these kids are close to meeting BB's size/speed/versatility requirements. All are high motor and high character with strong work ethics. All are likely to be available in the 40-60 range where we should have 3 picks, and where the gamble wouldn't be outrageous. They're not 100% perfect fits, but they're as close as you will come without being a top 10 pick.

I could also see Greg Hardy potentially being added to the mix if his issues slip him down to the 2nd round, but he has many more question marks (injury, character and consistency issues).

 

[Ochmed Jones]

The more I think about it, the more I could see BB targeting one of 3 guys somewhere in the 2nd round:

1. Greg Romeus, Pitt (junior). 6'5" 265#, 4.70 speed. Very strong against the run, nonstop motor. Has only played for 4-5 years, still learning the game.

2. Jeremy Beal, Oklahoma (junior). 6'3" 260#, 4.70 speed. Came to Oklahoma as a linebacker, has mostly played DL but has played all over the field. Terrific motor, good in all phases of the game - setting the edge, pursuit, pass rushing, and coverage.

The 2009 All-Big 12 Defense | Bleacher Report

3. Austen Lane, Murray State (senior). 6'6" 260#, 4.65 speed. Division II kid who hasn't played against top competition but has tremendous upside and athleticism, with nice body control for a kid his height. Great motor, high character kid. Reminiscent of a young Jason Taylor, shows the ability to play in space.

Diamond Hunter: Murray State's Austen Lane - GoRacers.com—Official Web Site of Murray State Athletics

All of these kids are close to meeting BB's size/speed/versatility requirements. All are high motor and high character with strong work ethics. All are likely to be available in the 40-60 range where we should have 3 picks, and where the gamble wouldn't be outrageous. They're not 100% perfect fits, but they're as close as you will come without being a top 10 pick.

I could also see Greg Hardy potentially being added to the mix if his issues slip him down to the 2nd round, but he has many more question marks (injury, character and consistency issues).

I think Romeus and or Lane are excellent "developmental" prospects. By this I mean we drtaft them and they play ST in year one while Woicik builds up the strengrth/flexibility and the position coaches work with them on learning the position, playbook and techniques on playing the 3-4 OLB position.
Then you cut these guys loose in year 2 or 3 and they are productive contributors in the base defense.

But here is the rub: BB does not currently have a development program nor does he even remotely seem interested in having one.

So the only conclusion I can draw is that come year 2010, we will have another FA retread manning the OLB position. For Example: Babin was a bust for Houston as a 3-4 OLB and this year he can't hardly sniff the field as a 4-3 DE, which means it is the prefect time for BB to sign him in the off season. That way can hear in 2010 TC press conferences how hard Babin is working and how he is improving everyday. Still not perfect, but he is improving. Where does the madness end!

 

[mayoclinic]

I think Romeus and or Lane are excellent "developmental" prospects. By this I mean we drtaft them and they play ST in year one while Woicik builds up the strengrth/flexibility and the position coaches work with them on learning the position, playbook and techniques on playing the 3-4 OLB position.
Then you cut these guys loose in year 2 or 3 and they are productive contributors in the base defense.

But here is the rub: BB does not currently have a development program nor does he even remotely seem interested in having one.

So the only conclusion I can draw is that come year 2010, we will have another FA retread manning the OLB position. For Example: Babin was a bust for Houston as a 3-4 OLB and this year he can't hardly sniff the field as a 4-3 DE, which means it is the prefect time for BB to sign him in the off season. That way can hear in 2010 TC press conferences how hard Babin is working and how he is improving everyday. Still not perfect, but he is improving. Where does the madness end!

I understand your point. I have no idea what BB will actually do at this point. Connor Barwin was an excellent developmental 3-4 OLB prospect available in the 40-50 range last year, and we passed. Everette Brown and Clint Sintim were also available. We chose a developmental DT prospect instead.

All I can do is try and identify guys who I think would be good fits, who meet the criteria BB says are important, and who might be available. I wouldn't expect them to come in and dominate right away, and I would hope we would get at least one FA 3-4 OLB like Shawne Merriman or Aaron Kampman. Burgess might be worth keeping if he can be re-signed cheaply.

I must admit, I have begun to question the "let Woicek coach them up" line. Both Shawn Crable and Ron Brace seem to be limited by their strength and ability to stand up to the run. We haven't seen much yet from either in terms of Woicek's strength and conditioning program.

James Harrison was a developmental prospect. So was Jared Allen. So was Elvis Dumervil. So were Trent Cole, LaMarr Woodley and Robert Mathis. Of the 11 players with 9 or more sacks so far this year, 6 of them were developmental prospects taken in the 2nd round or later. The other 5 guys were all taken top 20 (Andre Carter #8 in 2001, Dwight Freeney #11 in 2002, DeMarcus Ware #11 in 2005, Brian Orapko #12 in 2008 and Will Smith #18 in 2004).

It seems like there are 4 basic options:

1. Draft some developmental guys and give them time to develop.
2. Draft some top 20 guys and hope you hit it right. The 5 guys listed above are in the minority to pass rushers taken in the top 20 since 2001. Notably absent are former top 20 passrushers at DE or OLB like Jamal Reynolds, Justin Smith, Terrell Suggs, Jerome McDougle, Michael Haynes, Kenechi Udeze, DJ Williams, Shawne Merriman, Derrick Johnson, David Pollack, Mario Williams, AJ Hawk, Ernie Sims, Chad Greenway, Bobbie Carpenter, Gaines Adams, Jamal Anderson, Jarvis Moss, Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey, Aaron Curry, Aaron Maybin, and Robert Ayers.
3. Try to get a proven veteran pass rusher and hope they are productive for you. This is very expensive, and disastrous if it doesn't work out. Neither Rosie Colvin nor Adalius Thomas was as productive for us as they were with their previous teams.
4. Try to get a lesser veteran pass rush and hope it works out. That's what we did with Mike Vrabel, and it worked out great. That's what we did with Derrick Burgess, and it hasn't worked out so well.

So I'm going to hope that BB will eventually see the light and try and draft a deveopmental DE/OLB prospect before the 6th round. There's a lot of talent likely to be available in the 2nd round of this draft. Now's as good a time as any. Then again, so was last year, so again, I see your point.

P.S.: If we want to trade with Houston, how about trying to trade for Barwin instead of Babin? The letters are similar, maybe we can confuse them and get the players switched.

 

[mgteich]

1. DEVELOPMENTAL OPTION
You request that Belichick chose a developmental LB before the sixth round. Don't Crable and McKenzie qualify? These seemed to be reasonable developmental choices.

2. CHOOSE A TOP 20 PLAYER AND HOPE
Mayo qualifies. and Seymour.

3. CHOOSE TOP DE's and OLB's FROM OTHER TEAMS
Belichick tried this with the acquisitions of Colvin and Thomas. Both were injured and didn't work out.

4. CHOOSE LESSER PASSRUSHERS HOPING TO FIND A PLAYER THAT FITS WELL
This is indeed the most cost-effective and reasonable approach Belichick has used many times. Phifer was great. Vrabel was a an all-pro. Banta-Cain has been a fine addition. Others haven't turned out as well. We will try this option every year, as we should. I'm not so sure that Burgess was an aweful addition.

5. THE NEGLECTED FIFTH OPTION
Belichick might try to choose a OLB prospect or even a DE prospect in the 16-64 range (mid first to bottom of the second round. Belichick has often thought this was the sweet spot, the value part of the draft. It is here that value can indeed be found. Obviously there are no guarantees, other than that we won't get a passrusher in the 16-64 range if we don't draft one.

BOTTOM LINE
Belichick knew his 2009 plans. He knows his 2010 plans. He got rid of Vrabel and was planning to dump Seymour. He knew that Bruschio would retire or certainly wouldn't be a major presence on the defense.

One would think Belichick's 2009 plan for replacing Vrabel, Seymour and Bruschi would have been more robust than picking up Banta-Cain and Burgess, and drafting McKenzie. It's not that I am disappointed with any of these players. They are fine backups. We needed more.

I understand your point. I have no idea what BB will actually do at this point. Connor Barwin was an excellent developmental 3-4 OLB prospect available in the 40-50 range last year, and we passed. Everette Brown and Clint Sintim were also available. We chose a developmental DT prospect instead.

All I can do is try and identify guys who I think would be good fits, who meet the criteria BB says are important, and who might be available. I wouldn't expect them to come in and dominate right away, and I would hope we would get at least one FA 3-4 OLB like Shawne Merriman or Aaron Kampman. Burgess might be worth keeping if he can be re-signed cheaply.

I must admit, I have begun to question the "let Woicek coach them up" line. Both Shawn Crable and Ron Brace seem to be limited by their strength and ability to stand up to the run. We haven't seen much yet from either in terms of Woicek's strength and conditioning program.

James Harrison was a developmental prospect. So was Jared Allen. So was Elvis Dumervil. So were Trent Cole, LaMarr Woodley and Robert Mathis. Of the 11 players with 9 or more sacks so far this year, 6 of them were developmental prospects taken in the 2nd round or later. The other 5 guys were all taken top 20 (Andre Carter #8 in 2001, Dwight Freeney #11 in 2002, DeMarcus Ware #11 in 2005, Brian Orapko #12 in 2008 and Will Smith #18 in 2004).

It seems like there are 4 basic options:

1. Draft some developmental guys and give them time to develop.
2. Draft some top 20 guys and hope you hit it right. The 5 guys listed above are in the minority to pass rushers taken in the top 20 since 2001. Notably absent are former top 20 passrushers at DE or OLB like Jamal Reynolds, Justin Smith, Terrell Suggs, Jerome McDougle, Michael Haynes, Kenechi Udeze, DJ Williams, Shawne Merriman, Derrick Johnson, David Pollack, Mario Williams, AJ Hawk, Ernie Sims, Chad Greenway, Bobbie Carpenter, Gaines Adams, Jamal Anderson, Jarvis Moss, Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey, Aaron Curry, Aaron Maybin, and Robert Ayers.
3. Try to get a proven veteran pass rusher and hope they are productive for you. This is very expensive, and disastrous if it doesn't work out. Neither Rosie Colvin nor Adalius Thomas was as productive for us as they were with their previous teams.
4. Try to get a lesser veteran pass rush and hope it works out. That's what we did with Mike Vrabel, and it worked out great. That's what we did with Derrick Burgess, and it hasn't worked out so well.

So I'm going to hope that BB will eventually see the light and try and draft a deveopmental DE/OLB prospect before the 6th round. There's a lot of talent likely to be available in the 2nd round of this draft. Now's as good a time as any. Then again, so was last year, so again, I see your point.

P.S.: If we want to trade with Houston, how about trying to trade for Barwin instead of Babin? The letters are similar, maybe we can confuse them and get the players switched.

 

[mayoclinic]

1. DEVELOPMENTAL OPTION
You request that Belichick chose a developmental LB before the sixth round. Don't Crable and McKenzie qualify? These seemed to be reasonable developmental choices.

Crable certainly counts. McKenzie was drafted more as an ILB than as a pass rusher.

2. CHOOSE A TOP 20 PLAYER AND HOPE
Mayo qualifies. and Seymour.

Neither one was drafted to be a pass rusher.

3. CHOOSE TOP DE's and OLB's FROM OTHER TEAMS
Belichick tried this with the acquisitions of Colvin and Thomas. Both were injured and didn't work out.

I acknowledged that BB did this with Colvin and Thomas, and that neither produced for the Pats to the degree that they had produced with their original teams.

4. CHOOSE LESSER PASSRUSHERS HOPING TO FIND A PLAYER THAT FITS WELL
This is indeed the most cost-effective and reasonable approach Belichick has used many times. Phifer was great. Vrabel was a an all-pro. Banta-Cain has been a fine addition. Others haven't turned out as well. We will try this option every year, as we should. I'm not so sure that Burgess was an aweful addition.

Banta-Cain was a 7th round developmental pass rusher who was then re-acquired as a low-cost FA. He's worked out better the 2nd time around. Phifer was a coverage ILB, not a pass rusher. Of all the DE and OLB candidates who fall into this category, Vrabel has been by far the most productive. I never said Burgess was an aweful addition, but so far he hasn't been particularly productive at rushing the passer.

5. THE NEGLECTED FIFTH OPTION
Belichick might try to choose a OLB prospect or even a DE prospect in the 16-64 range (mid first to bottom of the second round. Belichick has often thought this was the sweet spot, the value part of the draft. It is here that value can indeed be found. Obviously there are no guarantees, other than that we won't get a passrusher in the 16-64 range if we don't draft one.

BOTTOM LINE
Belichick knew his 2009 plans. He knows his 2010 plans. He got rid of Vrabel and was planning to dump Seymour. He knew that Bruschi would retire or certainly wouldn't be a major presence on the defense.

One would think Belichick's 2009 plan for replacing Vrabel, Seymour and Bruschi would have been more robust than picking up Banta-Cain and Burgess, and drafting McKenzie. It's not that I am disappointed with any of these players. They are fine backups. We needed more.

As this thread is about BB and pass rushers, I was referring in particular to pass rushing DE's and OLBs. I therefore excluded 3-4 DE's (including Seymour) and LBs like Mayo and McKenzie who are particularly pass rushers. Obviously, pressure can come from anywhere, but I was addressing in particular players who were drafted largely based on the perception that they could rush the passer.

 

[Jimke]

1. DEVELOPMENTAL OPTION
You request that Belichick chose a developmental LB before the sixth round. Don't Crable and McKenzie qualify? These seemed to be reasonable developmental choices.

2. CHOOSE A TOP 20 PLAYER AND HOPE
Mayo qualifies. and Seymour.

3. CHOOSE TOP DE's and OLB's FROM OTHER TEAMS
Belichick tried this with the acquisitions of Colvin and Thomas. Both were injured and didn't work out.

4. CHOOSE LESSER PASSRUSHERS HOPING TO FIND A PLAYER THAT FITS WELL
This is indeed the most cost-effective and reasonable approach Belichick has used many times. Phifer was great. Vrabel was a an all-pro. Banta-Cain has been a fine addition. Others haven't turned out as well. We will try this option every year, as we should. I'm not so sure that Burgess was an aweful addition.

5. THE NEGLECTED FIFTH OPTION
Belichick might try to choose a OLB prospect or even a DE prospect in the 16-64 range (mid first to bottom of the second round. Belichick has often thought this was the sweet spot, the value part of the draft. It is here that value can indeed be found. Obviously there are no guarantees, other than that we won't get a passrusher in the 16-64 range if we don't draft one.

BOTTOM LINE
Belichick knew his 2009 plans. He knows his 2010 plans. He got rid of Vrabel and was planning to dump Seymour. He knew that Bruschio would retire or certainly wouldn't be a major presence on the defense.

One would think Belichick's 2009 plan for replacing Vrabel, Seymour and Bruschi would have been more robust than picking up Banta-Cain and Burgess, and drafting McKenzie. It's not that I am disappointed with any of these players. They are fine backups. We needed more.

My worry is that it took BB 9 years to expend a high draft pick on a

good middle linebacker and may take him another 9 years to find a

good outside linebacker.

 

[mayoclinic]

5. THE NEGLECTED FIFTH OPTION
Belichick might try to choose a OLB prospect or even a DE prospect in the 16-64 range (mid first to bottom of the second round. Belichick has often thought this was the sweet spot, the value part of the draft. It is here that value can indeed be found. Obviously there are no guarantees, other than that we won't get a passrusher in the 16-64 range if we don't draft one.

I obviously would have liked us to use this option last year, and hope we do so this year. Towards the lower part of that range I would include the pick under the "developmental" option. Clearly there's a big difference between a 7th round developmental prospect and one taken in the 40-60 range, but conceptually I included under developmental prospects who realistically would be expected to take 1-3 years to learn the position and make a major contribution. Connor Barwin would have fallen into the category last year. I think that Greg Romeus, Jeremy Beal and Austen Lane all fall into that category this year. I understand that with BB even a top 20 pick may take a year or so to learn the position, but the learning curve is generally expected to be less, with significant production hopefully occurring during the 2nd half of the rookie year.

 

[mgteich]

Perhaps the issue is that Belichick does not want a defense that center around what we constantly call a top passrusher.

A good pass defense does not have to depend on a top passrusher.

For Belichick, pressure from the DL is critical. In the past, Seymour and Green have been important in freeing up the OLB. In addition to pressure from the DL, the ILB'
s must clog the middle and occasionally reach the passer or at least collapse the pocket. And finally, if the line, secondary are doing thior jobs, a safety or corner can occasionally either run or passblitz.

None of this requires a traditional top level passrusher. What it does require is top play by the entire team and at least quality players at OLB and DE.

We harp on this again and again, but I believe that it is true. The issue in 2009 is not that Seymour and Vrabel needed to be replaced by top passrushers. The issue is that they were never really replaced at all.

.As this thread is about BB and pass rushers, I was referring in particular to pass rushing DE's and OLBs. I therefore excluded 3-4 DE's (including Seymour) and LBs like Mayo and McKenzie who are particularly pass rushers. Obviously, pressure can come from anywhere, but I was addressing in particular players who were drafted largely based on the perception that they could rush the passer.

 

[carolinatony]

Perhaps the issue is that Belichick does not want a defense that center around what we constantly call a top passrusher.

A good pass defense does not have to depend on a top passrusher.

For Belichick, pressure from the DL is critical. In the past, Seymour and Green have been important in freeing up the OLB. In addition to pressure from the DL, the ILB'
s must clog the middle and occasionally reach the passer or at least collapse the pocket. And finally, if the line, secondary are doing thior jobs, a safety or corner can occasionally either run or passblitz.

None of this requires a traditional top level passrusher. What it does require is top play by the entire team and at least quality players at OLB and DE.

We harp on this again and again, but I believe that it is true. The issue in 2009 is not that Seymour and Vrabel needed to be replaced by top passrushers. The issue is that they were never really replaced at all.



I never thought about it this and I believe your right. Does this mean BB will never take a pure pass rusher; maybe he will surprise us this year?

 

[carolinatony]

I believe the leage has changed to a more pass first option. Look at Indy,Saints,Chargers and us.
Rushng the passer is a must now.

 

[mayoclinic]

Perhaps the issue is that Belichick does not want a defense that center around what we constantly call a top passrusher.

A good pass defense does not have to depend on a top passrusher.

For Belichick, pressure from the DL is critical. In the past, Seymour and Green have been important in freeing up the OLB. In addition to pressure from the DL, the ILB'
s must clog the middle and occasionally reach the passer or at least collapse the pocket. And finally, if the line, secondary are doing thior jobs, a safety or corner can occasionally either run or passblitz.

None of this requires a traditional top level passrusher. What it does require is top play by the entire team and at least quality players at OLB and DE.

We harp on this again and again, but I believe that it is true. The issue in 2009 is not that Seymour and Vrabel needed to be replaced by top passrushers. The issue is that they were never really replaced at all.

I don't think anyone particularly is suggesting that the defense "center" around a top pass rusher, or "depend" on one guy. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have effective pass rushers. Most teams that are effective have more than 1. Andre Carter has had arguably his best season this year with Brian Orapko across from him. Freeney and Mathis proved that shutting down 1 top pass rusher isn't necessarily enough.

The most successful teams under BB have been the ones with the most defensive pressure. Sacks are an imperfect measurement, but in 10 years under BB the 5 teams to have made it to the AFCCG so far (2001, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007) have averaged 43 sacks. All 5 of those teams finished among the league leaders. The 2009 team has 22 sacks so far, on pace for 27. Assuming that holds up, the other 5 teams (including 2009) have averaged 31 sacks. During that period Mike Vrabel is the only player to record double digit sacks, with 12.5 in 2007. Vrabel, Willie McGinest, Richard Seymour and Roosevelt Colvin are the only 4 players this decade to record 8 or more sacks in a season. So I think that we've been able to successfully bring pressure without becoming "centered" or "dependent" on a single pass rusher.

Arguably the best defensive performance I've seen all year was from Cleveland in beating Pittsburgh last week. The Browns sacked Rothlisberger 8 times and pressured him many more, bringing pressure from all directions. They don't have a dominant pass rusher. Their leading pass rusher is Kamerion Wimbley with 6.5 sacks, and he didn't get a sack in that game; 6 other guys did.

Our DL has produced only 6 sacks this season (4 by Mike Wright, 1 each by Jarvis Green and Ty Warren). Last year's DL produced 20.5 of our 31 sacks. So we haven't been getting effective pressure with our DL. Our LBs have actually produced considerably more sacks so far this year (14) in 13 games then they did in all of 2008 (10). (Those figures count TBC as a LB and not a DL; even if you count him as a DE, which he really isn't, it still holds that the DL has underproduced in terms of pressure.)

I don't particularly want a pass rushing demon. I do want effective pass rushers, preferably more than one - what you call "quality" players. We don't have to be "centered" around the pass rush, but it should be obvious that we're not getting enough pressure on opposing QBs to allow our defense to be effective and make the plays of which it is capable.

I would like to see us draft one 3-4 DE who can get some pressure, and bring in at least 2 "quality" DE/OLBs.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, we need to replace our DE passrusher Seymour and our OLB passrusher Vrabel.

I don't think anyone particularly is suggesting that the defense "center" around a top pass rusher, or "depend" on one guy. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have effective pass rushers. Most teams that are effective have more than 1. Andre Carter has had arguably his best season this year with Brian Orapko across from him. Freeney and Mathis proved that shutting down 1 top pass rusher isn't necessarily enough.

The most successful teams under BB have been the ones with the most defensive pressure. Sacks are an imperfect measurement, but in 10 years under BB the 5 teams to have made it to the AFCCG so far (2001, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007) have averaged 43 sacks. All 5 of those teams finished among the league leaders. The 2009 team has 22 sacks so far, on pace for 27. Assuming that holds up, the other 5 teams (including 2009) have averaged 31 sacks. During that period Mike Vrabel is the only player to record double digit sacks, with 12.5 in 2007. Vrabel, Willie McGinest, Richard Seymour and Roosevelt Colvin are the only 4 players this decade to record 8 or more sacks in a season. So I think that we've been able to successfully bring pressure without becoming "centered" or "dependent" on a single pass rusher.

Arguably the best defensive performance I've seen all year was from Cleveland in beating Pittsburgh last week. The Browns sacked Rothlisberger 8 times and pressured him many more, bringing pressure from all directions. They don't have a dominant pass rusher. Their leading pass rusher is Kamerion Wimbley with 6.5 sacks, and he didn't get a sack in that game; 6 other guys did.

Our DL has produced only 6 sacks this season (4 by Mike Wright, 1 each by Jarvis Green and Ty Warren). Last year's DL produced 20.5 of our 31 sacks. So we haven't been getting effective pressure with our DL. Our LBs have actually produced considerably more sacks so far this year (14) in 13 games then they did in all of 2008 (10). (Those figures count TBC as a LB and not a DL; even if you count him as a DE, which he really isn't, it still holds that the DL has underproduced in terms of pressure.)

I don't particularly want a pass rushing demon. I do want effective pass rushers, preferably more than one - what you call "quality" players. We don't have to be "centered" around the pass rush, but it should be obvious that we're not getting enough pressure on opposing QBs to allow our defense to be effective and make the plays of which it is capable.

I would like to see us draft one 3-4 DE who can get some pressure, and bring in at least 2 "quality" DE/OLBs.

 

[fester]

A third???? Are you serious?? why you value him so low?

He is a legit two if you r deeming him a 3

Really, a mid-30 something OT who is good but not dominant with one year left on his contract --- I could see a 2010 3rd or a 4th plus something else but 1st rounders are only given up for elite or near elite players. In the past couple of years, the only players that I can think of who were traded for a 1st or more straight up are the following: QB Jay Cutler (supposed franchise QB), DE Jared Allen (elite DE), WR Roy Williams (supposedly a #1 WR, whoops), DE/DT Richard Seymour (although the discounted rate is probably a late 1st or a high 2010 2nd), LT Jason Peters (much younger and better than Light).

Is Light in the same category of players (given contract, age and expected level of play) as any of those guys were when they were traded. I'll give you Williams as that was a shot in the dark by the 'Boys, but any other?

 

[Marqui]

I believe the leage has changed to a more pass first option. Look at Indy,Saints,Chargers and us.
Rushng the passer is a must now.

Exactly, rushing the passer is EVERYTHING in this league now.

If you can't do it, it's over for you period.