BB and Pash Rushers

[mayoclinic]

I also think BB will be more prone to trade up in 2011 to get the talent he wants if there is a rookie salary cap, rather than moving back like he did in 09.

That's the key. BB is always ahead of the curve regarding the money.

Given the depth of talent this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see him trade back again like he did in 2009, and acquire more picks for 2011 so that he could trade up next year. The depth of the 2011 draft may be thinned somewhat by the number of juniors declaring this year, but I suspect it will be very rich at the top. If there is a rookie salary scale, that could make it a whole different ball game.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

That's the key. BB is always ahead of the curve regarding the money.

Given the depth of talent this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see him trade back again like he did in 2009, and acquire more picks for 2011 so that he could trade up next year. The depth of the 2011 draft may be thinned somewhat by the number of juniors declaring this year, but I suspect it will be very rich at the top. If there is a rookie salary scale, that could make it a whole different ball game.

Yup that's most likely what he is going to try to do. As you pointed out, always ahead of the curve. He'll take advantage of teams whose GM's and personnel departments are feeling the pressure of "winning now" and turn 2010 3rd's into 2011 2nd's and maybe a late 2010 1st into a 2011 first or some 2010 2nd's into a 2011 1st. It should definitely be interesting to see how he manipulates all those other suckers

In Bill We Trust

 

[BritPat]

I think last night left us in absolutely no doubt - a lack of pass rush in today's NFL will kill you.

You can add another one to that.

Chad Henne's a decent QB, no more, and the Fins receivers are poor - yet he had 335 yards.

I'm running out of phrases to get this message across, but I'll try - if we do not sort out the pass rush, this team is finished.

 

[carolinatony]

We need to trade up and get someone who can rush the passer like Greg Hardy DE Ole Miss but as usual; BB will trade back and back and get more future picks.

One time, you need to use the picks and take that impact player we need.

 

[Jimke]

We need to trade up and get someone who can rush the passer like Greg Hardy DE Ole Miss but as usual; BB will trade back and back and get more future picks.

One time, you need to use the picks and take that impact player we need.

The one gross failure of Bill Belichick is identifying, drafting, and coaching

young passer rushers. As Ochmed Jones pointed out earlier in this post,

someone else (Parcells for one) has always done this for Belichick. BB

has never drafted a pass rushing DE/OLB in the first round in 10 years.

The closest he comes to drafting and developing one of these players

is Tully Banta-Cain. Signing a good free agent is too expensive

(Peppers) and no sure thing (Thomas).

 

[SidelineSid]

The one gross failure of Bill Belichick is identifying, drafting, and coaching

young passer rushers. As Ochmed Jones pointed out earlier in this post,

someone else (Parcells for one) has always done this for Belichick. BB

has never drafted a pass rushing DE/OLB in the first round in 10 years.

The closest he comes to drafting and developing one of these players

is Tully Banta-Cain. Signing a good free agent is too expensive

(Peppers) and no sure thing (Thomas).

This is the best post that I've seen all night. Bill really hasn't done this with the lone exception of Vrable. He was a cast off from the Steelers and Bill brought him in. Other than him, Bill hasn't been able to do much at the position on his own.

Bill tried twice to bring in high priced free agents: Colvin and Thomas. Both have been minor disappointments.

He has passed on many young pass rushers over the years. I hope he brings it together. I don't want him to end up like Mike Shanahan: completely unable to put together an effective defensive line. That's kind of scary.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Colvin was a minor disappointment. Adalius Thomas is a massive disappointment and way overpaid considering his lack of production.


I knew our pass rush was in trouble when we came into the season with Pierre Woods and TBC as our two biggest pass rush threats. I knew we were in for even more toruble when Seymour got traded

 

[Ochmed Jones]

A lot of people are saying the league offenses have caught up to BB's defensive schemes.

I think this is a totally false statement. I think the lack of a pass rush for the past several seasons and the revamping of the secondary has led BB to "dumb down" the defense. Let's face it we do not have the horses to run the intricate schemes.

At the end of the day, BB has all the resources he needs to trade up down or sideways in order to draft whatever college pass rusher he desires in this draft. I doubt he will because he is so stubborn and addicted to veterans.

I would still prefer to come out of this draft with Cody and McClain on day 1. Maybe we can sign or trade for a pass rusher hopeful. (Mark Anderson for example?)

 

[mayoclinic]

A lot of people are saying the league offenses have caught up to BB's defensive schemes.

I think this is a totally false statement. I think the lack of a pass rush for the past several seasons and the revamping of the secondary has led BB to "dumb down" the defense. Let's face it we do not have the horses to run the intricate schemes.

At the end of the day, BB has all the resources he needs to trade up down or sideways in order to draft whatever college pass rusher he desires in this draft. I doubt he will because he is so stubborn and addicted to veterans.

I would still prefer to come out of this draft with Cody and McClain on day 1. Maybe we can sign or trade for a pass rusher hopeful. (Mark Anderson for example?)

I think at this point we are likely to finish 10-6 and end up picking around 20-21. That should put us within range of trading up for someone. The guys I see as potential trade ups right now are DE Cameron Heyward, DE/OLB Derrick Morgan, ILB Rolando McClain, and CB Joe Haden. I think those are all potential impact players. We could also sit pat and take probably take Carlos Dunlap, Greg Hardy or Jason Pierre-Paul. I'm not sure where Cody goes - quite possibly top 15, but he could also slip to the low 20's. I still can't see taking Cody unless Wilfork leaves.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I would still prefer to come out of this draft with Cody and McClain on day 1. Maybe we can sign or trade for a pass rusher hopeful. (Mark Anderson for example?)

Hopefully BB learned his lesson and does NOT do that. Look at how Adalius Thomas and Derrick Burgess worked out for us.

It's time we pick a stud OLB in the first round and groom him to be a starter on our defense for the next 6-8 years.



Keep an eye on Brandon Graham, DE, Michigan, 6'2 268lbs.

Amazing motor and effort. Great Run stopper but also gets to the QB (9.5 sacks this season despite being double teamed often). Very good character. Better prospect than Woodley was coming out of Michigan. Would fit in the Pats scheme as a LOLB. I fully expect AD to be gone after this year. BB obviously likes big well built OLB's in the 260-270lbs range on the strong side and that's exactly what Graham is. Spends alot of time in opponents backfield. Played MLB in highschool so he has experience as a LB.

He isn't your tall athletic freak edge rusher... but then again, look at how those types have turned out for us (Vince Redd, Shawn Crable). Graham is gritty stout player that gives 110% effort.

Currently the #1 rated DE on scout.com. He might not even be around by the time we're picking. Some people think he may fall a bit due to lack of height and speed, but the guy is a football player and we'd be lucky to get him on draft day.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Belicheck's expectations for drafting an OLB are ridiculous. Atleast the article makes it seem that way. And maybe that's why we're stuck with with an anemic pass rush led by Tully Banta Cain and backed up by Rob Ninkovich and over-the-hill-overpaid Adalius Thomas and Burgess. BB is too picky on drafting an OLB.

He wants a 6'5 260lbs guy who runs a 4.6, can set the edge, pass rush, and drop in coverage... obviously also has to have a good character, good college production, and no injury concerns.

First off guys like that are extremely RARE. Secondly.... getting a guy like that in the mid-20's will never happen. The only guys who even come close to that description from recent years are DeMarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, and Brian Orakpo... They were all drafted in the Top 15.


Good luck finding that needle in a haystack OLB Mr. Belicheck. Your reluctance to pick a top OLB in recent years has single handidly made our defense a joke

 

[mayoclinic]

Belicheck's expectations for drafting an OLB are ridiculous. Atleast the article makes it seem that way. And maybe that's why we're stuck with with an anemic pass rush led by Tully Banta Cain and backed up by Rob Ninkovich and over-the-hill-overpaid Adalius Thomas and Burgess. BB is too picky on drafting an OLB.

He wants a 6'5 260lbs guy who runs a 4.6, can set the edge, pass rush, and drop in coverage... obviously also has to have a good character, good college production, and no injury concerns.

First off guys like that are extremely RARE. Secondly.... getting a guy like that in the mid-20's will never happen. The only guys who even come close to that description from recent years are DeMarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, and Brian Orakpo... They were all drafted in the Top 15.

Good luck finding that needle in a haystack OLB Mr. Belicheck. Your reluctance to pick a top OLB in recent years has single handidly made our defense a joke

6'5" 260 lb. guys who run a 4.6 40, can set the edge, pass rush, drop into coverage, have good college production, no injury concerns, and good character:

1. Jason Pierre-Paul, USF. Still a bit raw. Amazing physical ability.
2. Robert Quinn, North Carolina. True sophomore, not eligible till 2011. Probable top 10 pick next year.

Borderline guys who fit many of those criteria:

1. Austen Lane, Murray State. Division II guy, but otherwise pretty much meets the criteria.
2. Greg Hardy. More like 4.65-4.7, with some injury, inconsistency and character concerns.
3. Greg Romeus, Pittsburgh. A bit raw, and more like 4.7 than 4.6.
4. Everson Griffen, USC. Only 6'3", but with very long arms. A bit inconsistent, but has been better this year.
5. Alden Smith, Missouri. A red shirt freshman, not eligible until 2011, but meets most if not all of the criteria.

That's all I can think of.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

6'5" 260 lb. guys who run a 4.6 40, can set the edge, pass rush, drop into coverage, have good college production, no injury concerns, and good character:

1. Jason Pierre-Paul, USF. Still a bit raw. Amazing physical ability.
2. Robert Quinn, North Carolina. True sophomore, not eligible till 2011. Probable top 10 pick next year.

1. Still raw = boom or bust
2. Not eligible... we need help asap

1. Austen Lane, Murray State. Division II guy, but otherwise pretty much meets the criteria.
2. Greg Hardy. More like 4.65-4.7, with some injury, inconsistency and character concerns.
3. Greg Romeus, Pittsburgh. A bit raw, and more like 4.7 than 4.6.
4. Everson Griffen, USC. Only 6'3", but with very long arms. A bit inconsistent, but has been better this year.
5. Alden Smith, Missouri. A red shirt freshman, not eligible until 2011, but meets most if not all of the criteria.

That's all I can think of.

1. div 2... BB likes players from good programs.
2. 43 de and too many characters concerns

the others you admit are raw and inconsistent.



Big athletic freak that runs a good 40 but is raw, inconsistent, and projected as a lower round draft pick.... All I can think of is Shawn Crable, Bruce Davis, Vince Redd, Quentin Groves, Cliff Avril, etc. None of them worked out well, and 3 of them have been signed by the Pats but haven't produced at all. Guys like that are dime a dozen.

My point is we need a "sure thing"(or atleast as close to sure thing as you can get) instead of gambling in later rounds on raw inconsistent players who just have good measurables.

 

[Jimke]

6'5" 260 lb. guys who run a 4.6 40, can set the edge, pass rush, drop into coverage, have good college production, no injury concerns, and good character:

1. Jason Pierre-Paul, USF. Still a bit raw. Amazing physical ability.
2. Robert Quinn, North Carolina. True sophomore, not eligible till 2011. Probable top 10 pick next year.

Borderline guys who fit many of those criteria:

1. Austen Lane, Murray State. Division II guy, but otherwise pretty much meets the criteria.
2. Greg Hardy. More like 4.65-4.7, with some injury, inconsistency and character concerns.
3. Greg Romeus, Pittsburgh. A bit raw, and more like 4.7 than 4.6.
4. Everson Griffen, USC. Only 6'3", but with very long arms. A bit inconsistent, but has been better this year.
5. Alden Smith, Missouri. A red shirt freshman, not eligible until 2011, but meets most if not all of the criteria.

That's all I can think of.

Sadly, I don't think Belichick will draft a pass rusher in an early round.
He hasn't for ten years.
He'll probably make a trade for an another Derrick
Burgess with a reasonable contract.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Sadly, I don't think Belichick will draft a pass rusher in an early round.
He hasn't for ten years.
He'll probably make a trade for an another Derrick
Burgess with a reasonable contract.

I agree with what you are thinking. It seems like BB will only move if the perfect OLB falls to us and I do not see that happening so I think he goes with a veteran FA and spends his first day picks this year on the lines and a skill position player or two.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Belicheck's expectations for drafting an OLB are ridiculous. Atleast the article makes it seem that way. And maybe that's why we're stuck with with an anemic pass rush led by Tully Banta Cain and backed up by Rob Ninkovich and over-the-hill-overpaid Adalius Thomas and Burgess. BB is too picky on drafting an OLB.

He wants a 6'5 260lbs guy who runs a 4.6, can set the edge, pass rush, and drop in coverage... obviously also has to have a good character, good college production, and no injury concerns.

First off guys like that are extremely RARE. Secondly.... getting a guy like that in the mid-20's will never happen. The only guys who even come close to that description from recent years are DeMarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, and Brian Orakpo... They were all drafted in the Top 15.


Good luck finding that needle in a haystack OLB Mr. Belicheck. Your reluctance to pick a top OLB in recent years has single handidly made our defense a joke

This goes back to what I wrote earlier. Why can't BB draft a kid with a few warts and "coach him up", develop his weak areas and/or put him in specific situations that play to his strengths, ie: pass rushing.

I understand it takes a year to two to develop or coach up a kid, but we have nothing in the funnel NOW.

Pittsburgh does a great job of this. IE: Timmons, Woodley, etc. Pittsburgh drafts them and the kids fall off the radar scren for a year or two only to emerge as legitimate base defenders fully trained and ready to step in without missing a beat.

We have needed a replacement for Willie for the past 4 seasons. And now we need a replacement for Vrabel in addition to the hole left by Willie's departure.

 

[mayoclinic]

This goes back to what I wrote earlier. Why can't BB draft a kid with a few warts and "coach him up", develop his weak areas and/or put him in specific situations that play to his strengths, ie: pass rushing.

I understand it takes a year to two to develop or coach up a kid, but we have nothing in the funnel NOW.

Pittsburgh does a great job of this. IE: Timmons, Woodley, etc. Pittsburgh drafts them and the kids fall off the radar scren for a year or two only to emerge as legitimate base defenders fully trained and ready to step in without missing a beat.

We have needed a replacement for Willie for the past 4 seasons. And now we need a replacement for Vrabel in addition to the hole left by Willie's departure.

That's what I was hoping to see happen with Connor Barwin last year, who I thought had a lot of the physical attributes that BB desired. This year I would love to see BB draft a guy with high upside such as Jason Pierre-Paul, Greg Romeus, Jeremy Beal or Austen Lane, and "coach them up". They have all or most of the physical attributes which he has described, plus good intangibles. Most of those guys should be available in the 2nd round (Pierre-Paul may go 1st because of his physical tools alone), and non may be ready to be an impact player their rookie season. But give them a year or 2 and they should all be capable of playing well in our system.

I agree with you that we are unacceptably behind the curve. There's really no excuse for it, and it is a major weakness of this team.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Sadly, I don't think Belichick will draft a pass rusher in an early round.
He hasn't for ten years.
He'll probably make a trade for an another Derrick
Burgess with a reasonable contract.

People said the same thing about ILB's and then he drafted Mayo 10th overall


Though I can say he was late in bringing in new blood at ILB and he's about 2 years late on bringing in a quality OLB now too

 

[MrNathanDrake]

This goes back to what I wrote earlier. Why can't BB draft a kid with a few warts and "coach him up", develop his weak areas and/or put him in specific situations that play to his strengths, ie: pass rushing.

I understand it takes a year to two to develop or coach up a kid, but we have nothing in the funnel NOW.

Pittsburgh does a great job of this. IE: Timmons, Woodley, etc. Pittsburgh drafts them and the kids fall off the radar scren for a year or two only to emerge as legitimate base defenders fully trained and ready to step in without missing a beat.

We have needed a replacement for Willie for the past 4 seasons. And now we need a replacement for Vrabel in addition to the hole left by Willie's departure.

Yup.

I agree. Everyone seems to see this huge problem except for Belicheck himself. I like the Chung and Butler picks but OLB was our biggest need in the off season and we missed in both FA and the Draft. I couldnt fathom why BB would draft someone to be a career back-up (Brace) when we still needed a starter at OLB. Was a back up for our best player really more important than a Starter for our weakest area? I don't think so.


And I'm baffled someone as smart as BB still places height in OLB's as something so important when some of the best OLB's in the league are under 6'2 (Dummervil, Harisson DPOY, Woodley). How are our 6'5 OLB's like Pierre Woods, Vince Redd, and Shawn Crable doing right now?

 

[glm]

I just want Derrick Morgan.