BB and Pash Rushers

[mayoclinic]

Great topic, Mayo. After being thoroughly bamboozled for years by BB's passing on OLB prospects of every stripe, the idea of targeting 4-3 pass rusher types instead might breathe new life into my mock drafts.

Thanks, Patchick.

I have to say, my thinking on this topic has evolved a lot in the past 8 months since the draft. I had been targeting guys like Barwin, Sergio Kindle, and Eric Norwood. I did have Greg Hardy on my radar as a possible Willie McG kind of guy, but I wasn't nearly as focused on DEs as much as "hybrids".

The BB quotes from the article about Will Smith were a revelation to me, and echoed some of the way my own thoughts have been trending:

1. "You can never have too many of those kind of guys". Referring to bigger pass-rushing DEs (not 3-4 DE's however) like Smith and Peppers who are stout enough to set the edge and play the run, and athletic enough to pursue and occasionally drop into coverage.
2. "Any team I'm coaching, if you can get a good defensive lineman, you'd consider it."
3. Defining the type of guy he likes as "a big guy who can run, rush the passer, pursue well, strong player at the point of attack, athletic, plays on his feet."
4. Saying that for guys of this type, while they could probably play outside linebacker, a team wouldn't want to drop them into coverage because it would take them away from doing what they do best -- rushing the passer.

This college ranks are particularly rich right now in guys with these kind of attributes - length, strength, speed and athleticism. And there seems to be no end of them. Richard Quinn from North Carolina may be the best of the bunch. Aldon Smith from Missouri is a red shirt freshman who also looks like a future star. They just keep coming.

 

[Marqui]

I am with you Mayo but would like a RB somewhere in this draft.
2 DL/LB and 1 OL would be great to built on the future but I see a RB as a need ala Dillion.

The Pats still have Morris and Taylor signed through next year. Once they get healthy RB probably isn't an immediate need. I know it's not ideal to rely on 32 year old RBs staying healthy, but sometimes you just have to use what you have. So sign me up for the idea to use 10s draft mainly on front 7 and Oline. Then wait for 11s draft for skill positions.

 

[mayoclinic]

I am with you Mayo but would like a RB somewhere in this draft.
2 DL/LB and 1 OL would be great to built on the future but I see a RB as a need ala Dillion.

I can see an RB somewhere in the draft. I'm less focused on one in the first 2 rounds than I was a few months ago, when like you I wanted a punishing RB like Jonathan Dwyer early in the draft to be that "Dillon" kind of guy.

First, Maroney has been running well and showing signs that he can be a punishing, between the tackles runner as well as a threat in the open field. That's not something we've seen in at least 2 seasons.

Second, I'm more convinced (and more convinced that BB is convinced) that some of our rushing woes have had to do more with the lack of effective run blocking than with our RBs. Vollmer has made a big difference on the left side, but I think there's a lot of room for improvement above what Koppen, Neal and Kaczur currently provide.

I still like Jonathan Dwyer and Ryan Mathews a lot. I'd be happy to get either. But I think right now I'd rather build a more powerful and agile OL, and add some backs later in the draft to complement Maroney. Maybe an eventual successor to Kevin Faulk like Dexter McCluster or Noel Devine, or a pounding back. Don't forget LeGarrette Blount, who was considered a 2nd round pick before this season.

I think at this point I'd personally prefer to spend my top picks on the offensive and defensive lines (focusing on defensive pass rushers), and add backs later in the draft. JMHO.

 

[mayoclinic]

Great topic, Mayo. After being thoroughly bamboozled for years by BB's passing on OLB prospects of every stripe, the idea of targeting 4-3 pass rusher types instead might breathe new life into my mock drafts.

With all of the youthful speed and athleticism that we have on this defense, I see it evolving away from the traditional 3-4 BB type of D.

In the middle I think we have speedy, rangy linebackers who can cover a lot of territory, but are still strong and stout enough to play the run. These aren't cover-2 LBs, but they are sort of a hybrid between a cover-2 guy and a 3-4 LB. Mayo and Guyton fit this mold, and Tyrone McKenzie probably will as well. Sean Weatherspoon would probably be a good fit if we needed more of these guys, but I don't think that's a priority right now.

In the back we have playmakers at both CB and S, including aggressive, physical safeties who can cover, blitz, and also come up and function as extra LBs. McGowan and Chung can definitely do this. The speed and athleticism in our defensive backfield are allowing BB to move in directions which he hasn't been able to do before.

In the front I think we will see a mixture of powerful guys who can control OTs, and faster, more athletic DE's who can do a variety of things include rush the passer, set the edge, pursue, and drop into coverage and occasionally function as extra LBs. These guys aren't typical 3-4 DE's because of their speed and athleticism, but they aren't at all like typical edge rushers either. Peppers and Smith are predecessors of this kind of DE, as was Willie McGinst. Morgan, Hardy, Dunlap, Griffen, Pierre-Paul, Romeus, Beal, Mason and Quinn are the kind of guys who fit this mold.

I think this kind of defense can be incredibly disruptive and maximize playmaking capability, while still allowing for more traditional 3-4 and 4-3 schemes.

The past drafts haven't really had these kind of players available. Ware and Merriman probably fit because of their size and strength. Matthias Kiwanuka might have fit the mold in 2006. I don't think Jamal Anderson in 2007 or Derrick Harvey in 2008 were athletic enough, compared to the guys coming out. Michael Johnson last year had some of those attributes but was inconsistent and had questions about his ability to set the edge and play the run.

Maybe the lack of DEs with this combination of size, speed, athleticism, and the ability to rush, play the run, pursue and drop into coverage explains why BB hasn't been more aggressive about addressing the pass rush in recent years.

 

[HarkDawg]

A third is a BEST-case scenario for a 32-year-old lineman coming off an injury-plagued season and entering the final year of his contract.

He is 32???


I thought he was like 30....

nvm then.....


it was a thought

 

[mayoclinic]

He is 32???


I thought he was like 30....

nvm then.....


it was a thought

He'll be 32 in June.

 

[HarkDawg]

I forgot about this thread I should have quoted u first Mayo..... My appoligies. Did it get moved??? It was not here initially.




I am sure some sucker will give us a 2 in a non cap year for him

 

[HarkDawg]

In any event..... if you can get a 2 for light DEAL him


A 3 would be a nice chip....... but I would like to maximize.

Some contender or idiot GM will over-establish Light as a -T- and want him for a year or 2 to make a run..... just sayin

 

[mayoclinic]

In any event..... if you can get a 2 for light DEAL him


A 3 would be a nice chip....... but I would like to maximize.

Some contender or idiot GM will over-establish Light as a -T- and want him for a year or 2 to make a run..... just sayin

As I said earlier, if you can get a 2nd for Light I'd do it in a second, I just doubt it will happen. An early 3rd is what I would try for. But more power to you if someone wants to overpay.

 

[Seneschal2]

...and faster, more athletic DE's who can do a variety of things include rush the passer, set the edge, pursue, and drop into coverage and occasionally function as extra LBs. These guys aren't typical 3-4 DE's because of their speed and athleticism, but they aren't at all like typical edge rushers either. Peppers and Smith are predecessors of this kind of DE, as was Willie McGinest. Morgan, Hardy, Dunlap, Griffen, Pierre-Paul, Romeus, Beal, Mason and Quinn are the kind of guys who fit this mold.

Belichick didn't view him as an outside linebacker/defensive end type hybrid for the Patriots. Belichick compared the situation to Julius Peppers, saying that while he could probably play outside linebacker, a team wouldn't want to drop him into coverage because it would take him away from doing what he does best -- rushing the passer.

Aren't we still describing the DE/OLB position even if we don't drop them into coverage? Not a full-sized DE (like Seymour), but those in the 260+ range with athleticism. And if we don't use the DE/OLB label, will we now be looking for smaller DEs?

 

[patchick]

Aren't we still describing the DE/OLB position even if we don't drop them into coverage? Not a full-sized DE (like Seymour), but those in the 260+ range with athleticism. And if we don't use the DE/OLB label, will we now be looking for smaller DEs?

In a sense, but the draft target lists do shift. E.g. when Kiwanuka came out, a lot of Pats fans crossed him off their wish lists because of a lack of agility for coverage assignments. And even away from the draft, think of the endless debates on the main board over whether the likes of Jason Taylor and Julius Peppers would even make sense on this team because they lack certain LB attributes.

 

[mayoclinic]

Aren't we still describing the DE/OLB position even if we don't drop them into coverage? Not a full-sized DE (like Seymour), but those in the 260+ range with athleticism. And if we don't use the DE/OLB label, will we now be looking for smaller DEs?

Yes and no.

I'm not sure what a "full sized" DE is. Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney clearly play DE despite being in the 245-260 range. Mario Williams is the size of a 3-4 DE at 6'6" and 295 lbs., but his style of play and role is very different from a 3-4 DE, and I don't think he's particularly well suited to be a 3-4 DE. And clearly guys like Julius Peppers and Will Smith are not suited to be 3-4 DE's, and are very different beasts from Richard Seymour and Ty Warren. But they are DEs and not LBs.

Will Smith is 6'3" 282#. That's essentially the same size as 6'3" 285# Jarvis Green.

I think BB is essentially looking for much more athletic versions of Jarvis Green - guys with enough speed to rush the passer and pursue the backside of a play but enough strength to set the edge, enough athleticism to drop into coverage, and preferably enough length to clog the passing lanes. They have to be strong enough to take on OLs, but their primary duty isn't controlling the OLs the way a 3-4 DE would do, it's bringing pressure more like a 4-3 DE. They won't be the run-stopping force that Richard Seymour was, but they can't be a liability against the run either.

If you think that defines an OLB, that's ok with me. In BB's scheme there's little difference between Willie McGinest working out of a 3 point stance or standing up as an OLB. I could see all of these guys occasionally functioning as LBs, but more often playing up on the line as 4-3 DEs, with Wilfork and Warren (or Brace and Pryor) manning the inside.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Reiss is just bringing back old news but I do remember hearing before the draft how much the Pats liked Will Smith. However, I have a hard time believing the Pats actually would've considered taking him because the Pats were pretty set with their 3-4 D-line. Smith is strictly a 4-3 end. I think they still would've taken Wilfork if they had the choice between the two.

Anyways, whether or not the Pats can win a super bowl this season, they have to find a way to get a stud rusher through the draft and FA. I hope they go after Peppers this off season.

 

[mayoclinic]

Reiss is just bringing back old news but I do remember hearing before the draft how much the Pats liked Will Smith. However, I have a hard time believing the Pats actually would've considered taking him because the Pats were pretty set with their 3-4 D-line. Smith is strictly a 4-3 end. I think they still would've taken Wilfork if they had the choice between the two.

Anyways, whether or not the Pats can win a super bowl this season, they have to find a way to get a stud rusher through the draft and FA. I hope they go after Peppers this off season.

The point about the thread wasn't whether BB would have taken Smith over Wilfork, but rather what kind of guys he likes and with what attributes, which might affect who he could possibly target in the future. I doubt BB would have taken Smith over Wilfork, but if Big Vince had been off the board Smith might have been a target.

I think Peppers is still an option, but I don't know how the Pats could make the money work, so I think it's a long shot.

 

[mayoclinic]

In a sense, but the draft target lists do shift. E.g. when Kiwanuka came out, a lot of Pats fans crossed him off their wish lists because of a lack of agility for coverage assignments. And even away from the draft, think of the endless debates on the main board over whether the likes of Jason Taylor and Julius Peppers would even make sense on this team because they lack certain LB attributes.

There's a huge difference between guys in the mold that BB talked about in the article and "3-4 OLBs" like James Harrison, Elvis Dumervil and Clay Matthews, all of whom are fine players in their own systems.

In 2006 there was a lot of discussion about guys like Chad Greenway, Bobby Carpenter and Manny Lawson. But none of those guys fit the kind of profile described in the OP. As you say, Mathias Kiwanuka probably came closest to fitting the profile. And, given how he's turned out, I think he might have done quite well for us as a pass rusher with the ability to play in space. Austen Lane from Murray State has drawn comparisons to Kiwanuka, and also to Jason Taylor.

 

[yopats]

I know I might get banned for this .. but I think we are def primed for the Peppers rumors to get going again.. w/ the ability to trade Light / AD etc.. we could def get away w/ Giving up our 2 seconds or even a late first and a second..

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

They talked about the pass rush a little on the sports hub today. Felger brought up the fact that we play a gap control system instead of a shooting the gaps and attacking. It's a valid point as we are a read and react defense. As much as I hate Rex Ryan, I love his defense. I like a defense that attacks and forces the issue and speeds up the QB's decisions.

The perfect example is Mangini's Jets D vs Ryan's Jets D. We would carve up Mangini's D, which he learned from BB. Cassel passed for like 400 yards on the Jets last year in Foxboro. Against the Rex Ryan Jets' D we had a lot more trouble in NY. Even last week was a good example. Ryan said in the first half they played a little softer because they were thrown off when the Pats went empty backfield. Then in the 2nd half he said he decided to dial up the pressure more and attack more. Obviously in the 2nd half we had a lot more trouble moving the chains.

It's a little odd to me that Belichick and Pees continue to want to play this way on defense. I thought as we saw the defense get younger we'd see an attacking defense that forces the issue. There's a reason the Ravens and Steelers have basically been the #1 and #2 defenses in YPG and turnovers over the last 10 years. I wonder if Adalius would be a pass rushing demon if we played a style reminiscent of this, but I do remember when we signed him Belichick praised his versatility and great ability to cover anyone on the opposing offense.

As much as we all say we need some young pass rushers, which we do, we might also need a change in scheme. Maybe Brian Baldinger wasn't far off when he said the Pats defense is a little outdated. In this era, it is all about getting pressure on the QB.

For example, Peyton Manning had a lot of difficulty in 2006 versus that Baltimore defense in the playoffs. 15 for 30, 170 yds, 0 TD, 2 INT. The Colts only put up 15 points in that game. Even this year, Manning put up 35 points on us and the following week only put up 17 on Baltimore. If you sit back in coverage like BB and Pees like to do and don't get any pressure on Manning he's going to pick you apart because your secondary can only cover for so long before someone gets open.

 

[SidelineSid]

They talked about the pass rush a little on the sports hub today. Felger brought up the fact that we play a gap control system instead of a shooting the gaps and attacking. It's a valid point as we are a read and react defense. As much as I hate Rex Ryan, I love his defense. I like a defense that attacks and forces the issue and speeds up the QB's decisions.

The perfect example is Mangini's Jets D vs Ryan's Jets D. We would carve up Mangini's D, which he learned from BB. Cassel passed for like 400 yards on the Jets last year in Foxboro. Against the Rex Ryan Jets' D we had a lot more trouble in NY. Even last week was a good example. Ryan said in the first half they played a little softer because they were thrown off when the Pats went empty backfield. Then in the 2nd half he said he decided to dial up the pressure more and attack more. Obviously in the 2nd half we had a lot more trouble moving the chains.

It's a little odd to me that Belichick and Pees continue to want to play this way on defense. I thought as we saw the defense get younger we'd see an attacking defense that forces the issue. There's a reason the Ravens and Steelers have basically been the #1 and #2 defenses in YPG and turnovers over the last 10 years. I wonder if Adalius would be a pass rushing demon if we played a style reminiscent of this, but I do remember when we signed him Belichick praised his versatility and great ability to cover anyone on the opposing offense.

As much as we all say we need some young pass rushers, which we do, we might also need a change in scheme. Maybe Brian Baldinger wasn't far off when he said the Pats defense is a little outdated. In this era, it is all about getting pressure on the QB.

For example, Peyton Manning had a lot of difficulty in 2006 versus that Baltimore defense in the playoffs. 15 for 30, 170 yds, 0 TD, 2 INT. The Colts only put up 15 points in that game. Even this year, Manning put up 35 points on us and the following week only put up 17 on Baltimore. If you sit back in coverage like BB and Pees like to do and don't get any pressure on Manning he's going to pick you apart because your secondary can only cover for so long before someone gets open.

Well put. Let's hope Bill reads this too.

 

[mayoclinic]

They talked about the pass rush a little on the sports hub today. Felger brought up the fact that we play a gap control system instead of a shooting the gaps and attacking. It's a valid point as we are a read and react defense. As much as I hate Rex Ryan, I love his defense. I like a defense that attacks and forces the issue and speeds up the QB's decisions.

The perfect example is Mangini's Jets D vs Ryan's Jets D. We would carve up Mangini's D, which he learned from BB. Cassel passed for like 400 yards on the Jets last year in Foxboro. Against the Rex Ryan Jets' D we had a lot more trouble in NY. Even last week was a good example. Ryan said in the first half they played a little softer because they were thrown off when the Pats went empty backfield. Then in the 2nd half he said he decided to dial up the pressure more and attack more. Obviously in the 2nd half we had a lot more trouble moving the chains.

It's a little odd to me that Belichick and Pees continue to want to play this way on defense. I thought as we saw the defense get younger we'd see an attacking defense that forces the issue. There's a reason the Ravens and Steelers have basically been the #1 and #2 defenses in YPG and turnovers over the last 10 years. I wonder if Adalius would be a pass rushing demon if we played a style reminiscent of this, but I do remember when we signed him Belichick praised his versatility and great ability to cover anyone on the opposing offense.

As much as we all say we need some young pass rushers, which we do, we might also need a change in scheme. Maybe Brian Baldinger wasn't far off when he said the Pats defense is a little outdated. In this era, it is all about getting pressure on the QB.

For example, Peyton Manning had a lot of difficulty in 2006 versus that Baltimore defense in the playoffs. 15 for 30, 170 yds, 0 TD, 2 INT. The Colts only put up 15 points in that game. Even this year, Manning put up 35 points on us and the following week only put up 17 on Baltimore. If you sit back in coverage like BB and Pees like to do and don't get any pressure on Manning he's going to pick you apart because your secondary can only cover for so long before someone gets open.

You need both the personnel and the scheme. Last year we clearly didn't have the speed in the secondary to play an aggressive, attacking defense - that just would have led to too many long plays. But know we have an athletic, playmaking secondary, and we have to scheme to be more aggressive. No matter how good the secondary, QBs like Manning and Brady can pick them apart if allowed enough time.

I agree we have to attack more and disrupt, not merely attempt to "control", opposing offenses. This doesn't mean blitzing indiscriminately, obviously. But it does mean attacking much more often and aiming at creating pressure, confusion and disruption, not merely controlling the gaps and limiting big plays.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

You need both the personnel and the scheme. Last year we clearly didn't have the speed in the secondary to play an aggressive, attacking defense - that just would have led to too many long plays. But know we have an athletic, playmaking secondary, and we have to scheme to be more aggressive. No matter how good the secondary, QBs like Manning and Brady can pick them apart if allowed enough time.

I agree we have to attack more and disrupt, not merely attempt to "control", opposing offenses. This doesn't mean blitzing indiscriminately, obviously. But it does mean attacking much more often and aiming at creating pressure, confusion and disruption, not merely controlling the gaps and limiting big plays.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want to see us all out blitzing on every play but I do want to see some controlled chaos with confusion and disruption and a more aggressive attack. I hate this sit back and control gaps, protect against the big play stuff. Obviously as you said last year we were limited to basically soft zone because of our personnel.

I think the scheme of defense that we play really hurts us on third downs. Everytime I watch us play I get nervous on 3rd downs b/c I just feel like we have trouble getting off the field. I like bringing heat on 3rd downs, especially 3rd and long because you force the QB to throw the ball before the WR's have been able to run their routes. No QB likes being hit, even Brady. This lack of pressure on the QB is the only thing that I can see holding us back from making a deep playoff run