Asante's asking to be traded?

[fgssand]

I don't have time to read all twelve pages of this thread, so appologies if I repeat stuff that's already been covered. Here's my 2 cents

1. IMHO Samuel is worth about 10-15% LESS than what Dre Bly got. Something in the neighborhood of $5.5MM/yr with about $12-14MM guaranteed. Samuel has had only one great year, both Bly and Clement have performed at a high level for several years now. On the plus side is his youth.
.

You could have stopped right there at your #1. The problem is exactly right there. I agree with your assessment of his value, however, you have to factor in the new market, created by deals of others and the enhanced salary cap.

I think we probably have offered MORE than Bly's deal and were flat out rejected.

I think Samuel wants money very close to Clements deal. I think other teams WILL offer him that kind of money - what is he supposed to do??

 

[marty]

we need to settle down here... a lot of the posts on this thread and the related ones can be sumed up by the following: Knee Jerk reactions. Sit tight people, Belichick and Pioli are smarter and have more experience with this sort of thing than you do. Remember last offseason and people were freaking out and we ended up 2 drops or 30 seconds away from another superbowl. Maybe step back and gain some perspective.

There it is in a nutshell!!:singing:

 

[Pat_Nasty]

Can we stop with the "he's only had one good year!" complaints?

If by "good year" you mean pro-bowl level, how many, exactly, did you expect him to have at this point in his career.

*His rookie year, he worked his way into nickel formations, and played well there.

*His 2nd year, he was thrown into the fire when Samuel + Poole went down, and played very well, if not outstandingly, during his first stint as an outside CB.

*In his 3rd year, he struggled some at first... as did every member of the 2005 Patriots' defense. Then, as the secondary was stabilized and we found a front-7 combo that worked, both Samuel and Hobbs really came on down the stretch, and in playoffs -- Samuel, in particular, had an impressive post-season, icing the WC game against the Jags with a pick-6, making an athletic INT vs. the Broncos, giving up only one completion of more than 3 yards, and breaking up a handful of passes, including a perfectly covered bomb to Lelie that was, through no fault of Samuel's, called interference.

*Then we come to his fourth year. It's easy to write off the accolades he received as just being due to his INT total, but that's totally off-base. Asante Samuel allowed only 4.7 yards per pass thrown his way in 2006, which was lower than ANY other starting CB. Over the course of the year, his coverage got tighter, and tighter, and the risks he was known for taking became more and more calculated.

If you look at Samuel's career, and any year within it, the only consistent pattern is one of STEADY IMPROVEMENT. Sure, he didn't have his "break-out" year until '06... but he's not the first Pats CB wait until season 4 to hit his stride: Ty Law had his first pro bowl caliber season in '98, four years into his career.

Now, I'm not trying to put Samuel in the same category as Champ Bailey or a Young Ty Law -- but anyone who wants to argue that he's "only had one good year" better be prepared to point out a year in which he failed to meet expectations for a player of his tenure in that year.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

I would plan as if he is going to sit out (IE draft and whatever FAs we can get) and refuse to trade him for anything less than:

High first rounder and a 3rd
or
Mid first rounder and a 2nd
or
Low first rounder and a 1st next year

Worse case scenario for us is that he holds out and we have to play the year without him.

Worse case scenario for him is that he loses almost 8M in salary, damages his image, consequently reduces his "cash in" ability next year.

I personally don't think he will sit out all year... maybe 2 or 3 games... Maybe! But that's it. He simply cannot afford to.

 

[Fantasic4x50x54x59x55]

he states intodays herald that he doesnt want to move, but will if he has to..its a good sign that hes willing to keep negotiations going. He wants to be a Patriot, and he doesnt ask for the pats to match a lucrative contract..but wants a fair number. If they dont comply with his "fair" number, he's obviously not as big as an asset to our team and defense as we suspected. Plain and Simple, BB and Pioli call the shots, if they feel we can win without him, so be it, and It will be hard to swallow but I'll like it.

If he does indeed walk, I will miss his ballhawking style of play, but from what I've seen, alot of his good numbers come from the actual system of the defense rather than being that "shut down" corner everyone is talking about(in other words right place, right time, right coverage, etc etc) . I dont look at Samuel as a SHUTDOWN corner, a very good corner top 15-20..indeed, but hes not the make or break it guy in our team,

I dont see BB holding on to Samuel, to be honest...only time will tell, i hope i am wrong...But if the right team gives up the right price...he will be gone.

 

[mikiemo83]

OK say a team signs Asante and we get the 2 1st round pick - would we not get and additional compensatory pick next year as compensation for loosing a free agent - say a 4th round pick or the equal to the round Asante was originally picked in?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

OK say a team signs Asante and we get the 2 1st round pick - would we not get and additional compensatory pick next year as compensation for loosing a free agent - say a 4th round pick or the equal to the round Asante was originally picked in?

There is no additional compensation for losing a franchised player because you have already been compensated for his loss.

 

[Joker]

So I guess my "hundreds of compensation picks" idea is all but dead, eh?

 

[mcbee]

Pats have already decided what their bid is and Samuel doesn't want it.

Game over. Sayonara. All IMO, of course.

Trading him for a mid-late first is a great do, IMO.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Now, I'm not trying to put Samuel in the same category as Champ Bailey or a Young Ty Law -- but anyone who wants to argue that he's "only had one good year" better be prepared to point out a year in which he failed to meet expectations for a player of his tenure in that year.

I think if you sat in on a negotiating session your head would spin. One reason having a veteran agent with a good track record dealing with the team is significant (something Deion didn't have) is because they ruthlessly dissect every performance in every game you have ever played to prove to you you are not Champ Bailey.

When BB actually spoke to the issue of FA player assessment in his final appearance of the season on WEEI, I figured Asante was gone if he was looking for a top 5 type contract long term. Bill made it a point to say that while he takes nothing away from Asante's talent or hard work, he believes the system and this coaching staff (and he singled Dean Pees out in particular for working tirelessly with this player over the last two seasons) put him in a position to have the individual success he had at the position this season.

And I'm not discounting the fact that Bill likely feels that way about most of the players on this team. The rare exceptions are the guys who consistently give better than they get. Those are his core guys, whom Bill will extend himself for, but even they are expected to deliver at or below not just market value but value to this team. Because that is part of what makes them so valuable to this team - their desire to win is only exceeded by their desire to win here. They want their money too, but money isn't the top three criteria on their list of needs.

Clearly Asante is a good fit for this system. But lots of guys have been. Unfortunately one (Starks) wasn't and I think that so shook the fan base that they forget what the Belichick system does for these players by and large. It surrounds them with sufficient hghly motivated and well coached talent and scheme to maximize their potential. That doesn't mean they are not good players in their own right, but if they were great players and demanded to be compensated accordingly, compensating them would require adjusting the entire system to account for the cost of maintaining them as opposed to it.

LB, Safety, DE. Those are this systems first three priorities on defense. And we won't even overpay for those. Overpay for CB and the system is weakened. Therefore the CB you overpay better be Champ Baileyesque. At the Pro Bowl this year Bill was overheard when miked saying to Ed Reed - boy, if I had you and those two corners that's all I'd need, ALL. Which makes sense financially too because that would then be all he could afford.

 

[fgssand]

I think if you sat in on a negotiating session your head would spin. One reason having a veteran agent with a good track record dealing with the team is significant (something Deion didn't have) is because they ruthlessly dissect every performance in every game you have ever played to prove to you you are not Champ Bailey.

When BB actually spoke to the issue of FA player assessment in his final appearance of the season on WEEI, I figured Asante was gone if he was looking for a top 5 type contract long term. Bill made it a point to say that while he takes nothing away from Asante's talent or hard work, he believes the system and this coaching staff (and he singled Dean Pees out in particular for working tirelessly with this player over the last two seasons) put him in a position to have the individual success he had at the position this season.

And I'm not discounting the fact that Bill likely feels that way about most of the players on this team. The rare exceptions are the guys who consistently give better than they get. Those are his core guys, whom Bill will extend himself for, but even they are expected to deliver at or below not just market value but value to this team. Because that is part of what makes them so valuable to this team - their desire to win is only exceeded by their desire to win here. They want their money too, but money isn't the top three criteria on their list of needs.

Clearly Asante is a good fit for this system. But lots of guys have been. Unfortunately one (Starks) wasn't and I think that so shook the fan base that they forget what the Belichick system does for these players by and large. It surrounds them with sufficient hghly motivated and well coached talent and scheme to maximize their potential. That doesn't mean they are not good players in their own right, but if they were great players and demanded to be compensated accordingly, compensating them would require adjusting the entire system to account for the cost of maintaining them as opposed to it.

LB, Safety, DE. Those are this systems first three priorities on defense. And we won't even overpay for those. Overpay for CB and the system is weakened. Therefore the CB you overpay better be Champ Baileyesque. At the Pro Bowl this year Bill was overheard when miked saying to Ed Reed - boy, if I had you and those two corners that's all I'd need, ALL. Which makes sense financially too because that would then be all he could afford.

Awesome analysis Mo....you really have nailed it.

I would love to know what was offered and rejected versus what he wants.

My guess is we offered Bly money and he wants close to Clement money (when I say "money" I mean the entire deal, from up front - to guarantee - to contract length and I mean real money, not what is announced).

Seems like the fans want him here, NE organization wants him here and he wants to be here, will egos and real money allow it to happen?

 

[mgcolby]

Can we stop with the "he's only had one good year!" complaints?

If by "good year" you mean pro-bowl level, how many, exactly, did you expect him to have at this point in his career.

*His rookie year, he worked his way into nickel formations, and played well there.

*His 2nd year, he was thrown into the fire when Samuel + Poole went down, and played very well, if not outstandingly, during his first stint as an outside CB.

*In his 3rd year, he struggled some at first... as did every member of the 2005 Patriots' defense. Then, as the secondary was stabilized and we found a front-7 combo that worked, both Samuel and Hobbs really came on down the stretch, and in playoffs -- Samuel, in particular, had an impressive post-season, icing the WC game against the Jags with a pick-6, making an athletic INT vs. the Broncos, giving up only one completion of more than 3 yards, and breaking up a handful of passes, including a perfectly covered bomb to Lelie that was, through no fault of Samuel's, called interference.

*Then we come to his fourth year. It's easy to write off the accolades he received as just being due to his INT total, but that's totally off-base. Asante Samuel allowed only 4.7 yards per pass thrown his way in 2006, which was lower than ANY other starting CB. Over the course of the year, his coverage got tighter, and tighter, and the risks he was known for taking became more and more calculated.

If you look at Samuel's career, and any year within it, the only consistent pattern is one of STEADY IMPROVEMENT. Sure, he didn't have his "break-out" year until '06... but he's not the first Pats CB wait until season 4 to hit his stride: Ty Law had his first pro bowl caliber season in '98, four years into his career.

Now, I'm not trying to put Samuel in the same category as Champ Bailey or a Young Ty Law -- but anyone who wants to argue that he's "only had one good year" better be prepared to point out a year in which he failed to meet expectations for a player of his tenure in that year.

You are taking the one good year statement out of context and twisting it to fit your argument (at least in my case). Because I never said he only had one good year. What I said was "He's had one season with stats that warrant anything above league average. I don't think 15 mil is Gipping him, imo." That is a far cry from saying he has had only one good year. He had 2 good years in terms of where he should have been in years 1 and 2 - a bad year regardless of what he did in the Playoffs in 05 and an above average year in 06.

My point is this. He is a solid starter but not a top 10 CB and he has only had one season that warrants a big pay day (and I am reluctant to say that due to the issues that I have brought up previously in this thread) - how many times have we seen a guy have a monster year when playing for a contract, only to be a dissapointment the rest of the way? Samuel needs to have a similar year next year to prove that 05 was a fluke and 06 was the real Asante. He needs to be consistent. Name one team that was scared to throw at him last season?

 

[DESERTPAT]

Re: Assante's asking to be traded?

i can, i have a faulk one aswell and this has nothing to do with me liking a asante a lot

its more of: why cant we be fair to guy who played very well this season AND plays even better in the playoffs? Is he worth top 3 CB money? Not yet but hes not even asking for that. Hes asking for a premier #2 CB money right now (Dre Bly)

Ok lets be fair to everyone! Give everyone top $$$! oops can't do that, that darn salary cap! Asante had exactly one (1) good season so lets go overboard and give him what he wants. Quit being so darn emotional, players will continue to come and go on this team and thats just the way it is. Wanna root for someone who throws their money away then just root for the Red Sox, you'll sure get your "fix" with them.

 

[Pat_Nasty]

You are taking the one good year statement out of context and twisting it to fit your argument (at least in my case). Because I never said he only had one good year. What I said was "He's had one season with stats that warrant anything above league average. I don't think 15 mil is Gipping him, imo." That is a far cry from saying he has had only one good year. He had 2 good years in terms of where he should have been in years 1 and 2 - a bad year regardless of what he did in the Playoffs in 05 and an above average year in 06.

My point is this. He is a solid starter but not a top 10 CB and he has only had one season that warrants a big pay day (and I am reluctant to say that due to the issues that I have brought up previously in this thread) - how many times have we seen a guy have a monster year when playing for a contract, only to be a dissapointment the rest of the way? Samuel needs to have a similar year next year to prove that 05 was a fluke and 06 was the real Asante. He needs to be consistent. Name one team that was scared to throw at him last season?

First of all, I wasn't addressing your comment specifically, just the notion that Samuel's '06 season came out of nowhere, and that there's anything unusual about a player not hitting his stride until his 3rd year starting.

As for him "having only had one season that warrants a big pay day," -- you don't pay a player for the seasons he's already had, you pay him for the seasons that are ahead of him.

It's unfortunate, but in the NFL, teams seldom get all the time they'd like to evaluate players before they hit FA and they need to decide whether to make a financial commitment to them. Yes, it would be nice to have another year to see if Samuel can maintain his '06 level -- the fact that we don't is the Pats problem, not Samuels, though. This is our last chance to sign him long-term -- if he plays out the season on the franchise tender, he'll either reaffirm his worth, and sign somewhere for Clements-like money, or he'll have an off season and sign a short term deal somewhere else to try to earn back his reputation.

So the question isn't whether Samuel has proven himself consistent, but how much we're willing to gamble on whether he will or won't. You ask how many times have we seen a guy have a good contract year and then disappoint... I ask, is it any more often than seeing a guy take a couple years in the NFL to catch on, before going on to be a great player? I'd say emphatically "no."

So once again, I ask: what evidence is there to suggest that Samuel's '06 season isn't part of a pattern of steady improvement?

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I'm going with those who see this as a negotiating tactic. with everything else we've done this offseason, we have to cut a deal with Asante.

if we trade him, it should be to a team on a distant planet far, far away from the Jets and the AFC. and, if we do, it should be at the last minute to a team with a low enough first round pick that we could package it with number 24 and move way up the board if Calvin Johnson falls out of the top three or if we could pick up Laron Landry or Leon Hall.

 

[mgcolby]

First of all, I wasn't addressing your comment specifically, just the notion that Samuel's '06 season came out of nowhere, and that there's anything unusual about a player not hitting his stride until his 3rd year starting.

As for him "having only had one season that warrants a big pay day," -- you don't pay a player for the seasons he's already had, you pay him for the seasons that are ahead of him.

It's unfortunate, but in the NFL, teams seldom get all the time they'd like to evaluate players before they hit FA and they need to decide whether to make a financial commitment to them. Yes, it would be nice to have another year to see if Samuel can maintain his '06 level -- the fact that we don't is the Pats problem, not Samuels, though. This is our last chance to sign him long-term -- if he plays out the season on the franchise tender, he'll either reaffirm his worth, and sign somewhere for Clements-like money, or he'll have an off season and sign a short term deal somewhere else to try to earn back his reputation.

So the question isn't whether Samuel has proven himself consistent, but how much we're willing to gamble on whether he will or won't. You ask how many times have we seen a guy have a good contract year and then disappoint... I ask, is it any more often than seeing a guy take a couple years in the NFL to catch on, before going on to be a great player? I'd say emphatically "no."

So once again, I ask: what evidence is there to suggest that Samuel's '06 season isn't part of a pattern of steady improvement?

2005! He didn't improve in 2005 in fact he played worse than he did in 2004. So what proof do you have that he has steadily improved? The argument goes both ways and it shows that he isn't consistent.

I understand that you don't pay for what a player has done - if that was the case rookies would all get the same salary regardless of where they were drafted. Thanks for setting me straight, I see everything much clearer now. Giving a guy a huge contract coming off the one season out of his four that warrants consideration for it, must be good policy.

 

[patfanken]

The BOTTOM LINE on this is going to be a win for the Pats. IF they hadn't franchised him, likely he would be a member of ANOTHER team right now, and all we would have would be $7MM more in cap space. As it stands right now he will either sign a deal to play one or more years here, OR the pats will wind up with a package of significant draft picks to improve an already good team. I don't see any downside here.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

The BOTTOM LINE on this is going to be a win for the Pats. IF they hadn't franchised him, likely he would be a member of ANOTHER team right now, and all we would have would be $7MM more in cap space. As it stands right now he will either sign a deal to play one or more years here, OR the pats will wind up with a package of significant draft picks to improve an already good team. I don't see any downside here.

The downside is in the short term. I think everyone here wants to get back to the SB next year (and hopefully beyond that). It would be a tall order for a rookie CB to come in and play as well as Samuel did last year. But in the end that rookie might be better than Samuel ever was.

On the other hand, what if that rookie CB blows a coverage and costs a big game, perhaps even a playoff game?

What if we trade Samuel and Hobbs were to go down with a long term injury? With our history of injuries I'm not willing to bet against it.

That's why I think this one isn't as simple as it might seem at first. Hopefully he signs and plays a year. It gives us a proven CB and another year to hammer out a long term contract (unlikely at this point).

 

[fgssand]

The BOTTOM LINE on this is going to be a win for the Pats. IF they hadn't franchised him, likely he would be a member of ANOTHER team right now, and all we would have would be $7MM more in cap space. As it stands right now he will either sign a deal to play one or more years here, OR the pats will wind up with a package of significant draft picks to improve an already good team. I don't see any downside here.

Plenty of downside:

He is our best cornerback that may not be with us this year.

Or he may hold out....all year.

Or he "shoots his way out" and we lose him for maybe a not so good of a deal.

Another player does all that the organization asks and ends up leaving in a than desirable manner all around.

Team morale takes yet another hit...


Or we send a message to next years group that it's not easy to "get paid" here.

 

[grooverider]

Samuel is a product of the NE system. If he goes anywhere else, he will not put up the numbers he did here. Just like Denver and their RB's..Samuel as a excellent CB is more a product of this defensive system rather then him having Champ Bailey outright sick skills.

With that said..I do not see an immeadiate replacement, and I would discourage a trade, get him signed.