Are the pats short changing Branch?

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I don't think we have to limit the list of who we would take over Branch to just 3 or 4 guys, I'd take a taller guy with the same abilities and the same regular season stats as Branch, just as a starting point!

MoLewis took on the media conglomerate again! :rocker:

 

[JoeSixPat]

For fans, at least, it seems the debate over what (or whether) the Patriots should pay Branch has turned into whether he is a legitimate No. 1 receiver.

That is not the point. Branch is the Patriots' No. 1 receiver and, maybe more importantly, he is Brady's No. 1 receiver.

As I've said on many occasions, Pats reporters are stupid if they don't check the pulse of Patriot nation by checking in here... any credible reporter should.

So while Solomon may be referencing the "is he a #1 debate" here I submit that its he who is missing the point.

Much like those who seem to confuse #1 WR with a potential #1 WR (i.e. perhaps Ben Watson, though that would be quite a jump from 20 odd receptions) its wrong to assume that the #1 WR on a team should be receiving #1 WR money.

Branch may be the best reciever/WR on the team. But with only one season with #1 WR numbers under his belt, signing him to a long term contract that pays him as a #1 WR might not be a wise move in the long term.

In 2001 and 2002 Troy Brown's stats put Deion Branch's 2005 numbers to shame. Was he our #1 WR for those seasons?

Absolutely.

Should Troy have been signed to a long term contract that paid him as much as other #1 WRs?

Absolutely not.

Patsfans.com fans deserve a ton of credit for recognizing this distinction even if local reporters seem to miss the point.

Ultimately I expect that supply and demand issues, as well as the uncertainty of next year's available WR free agents will cause the Patriots to increase their offer to Branch, and I hope they work it out.

But if they don't work it out, I will understand the long term factors that entered into the Pats decision not to break the bank for Deion.

 

[fgssand]

As I've said on many occasions, Pats reporters are stupid if they don't check the pulse of Patriot nation by checking in here... any credible reporter should.

So while Solomon may be referencing the "is he a #1 debate" here I submit that its he who is missing the point.

Much like those who seem to confuse #1 WR with a potential #1 WR (i.e. perhaps Ben Watson, though that would be quite a jump from 20 odd receptions) its wrong to assume that the #1 WR on a team should be receiving #1 WR money.

Branch may be the best reciever/WR on the team. But with only one season with #1 WR numbers under his belt, signing him to a long term contract that pays him as a #1 WR might not be a wise move in the long term.

In 2001 and 2002 Troy Brown's stats put Deion Branch's 2005 numbers to shame. Was he our #1 WR for those seasons?

Absolutely.

Should Troy have been signed to a long term contract that paid him as much as other #1 WRs?

Absolutely not.

Patsfans.com fans deserve a ton of credit for recognizing this distinction even if local reporters seem to miss the point.

Ultimately I expect that supply and demand issues, as well as the uncertainty of next year's available WR free agents will cause the Patriots to increase their offer to Branch, and I hope they work it out.

But if they don't work it out, I will understand the long term factors that entered into the Pats decision not to break the bank for Deion.

This was actually a very good point - If Troys numbers blow away Deions when comparing the two years, then we have a situation of Patriots staying the course and simply not overpaying for any player.

As stated before we have no clue what has been offered, refused, countered and discussed. We really should simply sit back and allow SP & BB to do what they do best.

My only concern is if this will have far reaching negative ramifications within the locker room and create bad feelings and a sense that the Patriots will never pay a player their true worth ( I am not saying they don't - I feel they actually do, but there may be a sense that they wont after this offseason in particular).

 

[Johnny Z]

Whether or not he is a true #1 is the least relevant factor. You're not going to build a winner thinking bad football theory, and that is what the true #-1 theory is: bad football theory.

The Patriots know their system, and they know whether or not Branch could be fed stat inflating throws at the expense of the offense and the team.

My hunch is he is going to get pretty big money, and it's because they try not to throw to him excessively and they know that.

Anybody who thinks they can easily find a taller WR with the same skills is in for years and years of disappointment.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Err...Hines Ward?

 

[patsox23]

The point i was trying to make was Branch was just as good as the other #1 rec out there..

WRONG. I love Branch, but that is just flat-out WRONG.

 

[patsox23]

As recently as several weeks ago Deion said he intended to honor his contract although he hoped a new deal would be forthcoming. Then the Walker rumors started to fly, followed shortly by rumors that Branch was steamed and would holdout if Walker were signed before he got his. And though we didn't follow through on Walker, we drafted a first round graded WR for whom we moved up to the top of the second round at the price of a 2 and 3. Hmm...

Um...when did you hear THIS angle on the story? I never heard or read ANYTHING like what you're intimating here. "Branch was steamed and would holdout if Walker were signed before he got his???"

Maybe you have sources I don't know about, but I think you may be conflating a couple of stories. There were rumors that the Pats might trade for Walker. And I know it was suggested that one reason the Patriots might NOT make the trade was that it could complicate the ongoing negotiations with Branch. But where on Earth was it reported that Branch was mad or had any kind of reaction whatsoever to those Walker rumors??? And that he'd holdout if Walker got a big contract from the Pats? Really?????

Please elaborate.

 

[JoeSixPat]

We really should simply sit back and allow SP & BB to do what they do best.

I agree - the only thing one needs to keep in mind, is that not even SP & BB can see the future.

If they sign Branch to #1 money they've effectively "spent" the cap resource for a #1 WR. Branch - even through injury or a return to pre-2005 numbers - might eat up that salary slot while not providing a return on investment.

Likewise, by letting Branch walk next year, the Pats could be in uncharted waters, vying to sign whoever is available in Free Agency that is a #1 caliber WR - and paying a premium to outbid others....

Such players might have a better track record than Deion as a long-term proven #1 WR but we're going to have to pay more for that compared to what even Deion is probablty demanding now (as regardless of posturing, Deion knows he only has a single #1 season under his belt)

 

[IcyPatriot]

I must be completely out of the loop, because I don't know what the Patriots offered him.

What was it? And how much did we short change him by.

I'm dying to hear because for awhile it was seeming like many fans were declaring the Patriots offer to be unfair without even knowing what it was.

My Patriots contact friend says the Patriots are short @ $750,000/yr. He was going to try to find out more for me...but i only see him once in a while.

I hope he's right because that doesn't seem to be a great amount of $$$ difference.

One other thing I found out is there is a bitterness on the team concerning who can make the xtra endorsements $$$. Word is that is a special club to be in and it's anything but fair.

Thanks to Miguels Salary Page...it is written into all their contracts that everything goes through the team. Doesn't seem quite fair if the endorsement doesn't require any Patriot/NFL gear.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

F.B.N.:

Please explain this whole endorsement issue more thoroughly so we can understand it better. Sounds interesting...but first I've heard of it.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The point i was trying to make was Branch was just as good as
the other #1 rec out there.And in my opinon he deserved what they are
making.In big games he played big like a clutch hitter in baseball.

Givens pretty much turned into a monster every postseason - but he was not worth 5M a year to the Pats. Branch has had one "#1" quality season. That's not enough to put him in the category of Owens, Moss, or Smith. He did what he did on a championship team -- that doesn't make him the best receiver in football.

He needs to be paid as what he is: a good player who might be on his way to being a household name, but not a superstar (the Pats don't have them, outside of Brady and now Seymour.)

If he's hung up on being THE man, it doesn't bode well for New England or Branch. I am not sure it's that "black and white," and am happy to have his agent and the Front office fight it out. I don't think they let him go, unless his asking price is exhorbitant compared with his value in the BB/SP world.

The whole drawn out negotiation process is almost silly... the Pats set a value for the worth of a player TO THEM. We'll see.

PFnV

 

[JoeSixPat]

My Patriots contact friend says the Patriots are short @ $750,000/yr. He was going to try to find out more for me...but i only see him once in a while.

I hope he's right because that doesn't seem to be a great amount of $$$ difference.

One other thing I found out is there is a bitterness on the team concerning who can make the xtra endorsements $$$. Word is that is a special club to be in and it's anything but fair.

Thanks to Miguels Salary Page...it is written into all their contracts that everything goes through the team. Doesn't seem quite fair if the endorsement doesn't require any Patriot/NFL gear.

My point on a statement as to whether Branch is being short changed is that the people making that claim have no idea what the offer was - ergo one can't make such a statement.

You and I have spoken about your contact before so I know its good information - but even knowing what the difference in (annual?) salary is doesn't tell us whether he's being lowballed.

The endorsement issue strikes me as some players being envious of the cult of personality built up around Brady, Seymour, previously Adam V., Bruschi perhaps etc... but that's not something they control.

I suppose if endorsements go through the Pats contractually its because the Pats want some quality control over the process - which is smart as endorsements DO reflect on the team.

What the specific *****ing is all about I can only guess - Maybe Amazing Superstores' Homosexual porn division has made Randall Gay a lucrative endorsement offer that Bob Kraft vetoed?

 

[fgssand]

My Patriots contact friend says the Patriots are short @ $750,000/yr. He was going to try to find out more for me...but i only see him once in a while.

I hope he's right because that doesn't seem to be a great amount of $$$ difference.

One other thing I found out is there is a bitterness on the team concerning who can make the xtra endorsements $$$. Word is that is a special club to be in and it's anything but fair.

Thanks to Miguels Salary Page...it is written into all their contracts that everything goes through the team. Doesn't seem quite fair if the endorsement doesn't require any Patriot/NFL gear.

FBN...thanks for the info, I know how hard it is to know someting and then to try to relay the information without causing any problems for anyone.

Is there any way you can elaborate a little more as well as trying to see if you can get an update since you last saw your buddy?

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Contracts are based on performance. I don't get this pay me for "potential" or pay me for "talent" crap. Prime example is Julian Peterson and Lavar Arrington. Yes they have talent but what the hell have they done? They get top dollar based on talent alone and make it a habbit of not finishing a full season for whatever reason. Bottom line: Peterson and Arrington were both overpayed, and the Pats are taking the right approach and playing the waiting game. Branch has never been over 1,000 yards and hasn't caught more than 5 TD's in a single season. If you want #1 money than you must produce like a #1 reciever on a consistant basis. The only negative that Branch has is that he is inconsistant in terms of recieving yards and tends to dissapear during games. Are they short changing him? No

 

[dhamz]

The endorsement issue strikes me as some players being envious of the cult of personality built up around Brady, Seymour, previously Adam V., Bruschi perhaps etc... but that's not something they control.

I suppose if endorsements go through the Pats contractually its because the Pats want some quality control over the process - which is smart as endorsements DO reflect on the team.

What the specific *****ing is all about I can only guess - Maybe Amazing Superstores' Homosexual porn division has made Randall Gay a lucrative endorsement offer that Bob Kraft vetoed?

I would guess that the "endorsement issue" probably has more to do with guys being told to accept less than their market value in NE because the Bradys and Bruschis and Troy Browns did. Those guys make up what they left on the table in endorsement $. A Tom Ashworth or David Givens or Branch doesn't have a lot of endorsement opportunities so they feel the team is comparing apples and oranges when saying those other guys stayed for less $. Something along the lines of "They didn't really leave $ on the table because they made it up off the field and I can't."

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Um...when did you hear THIS angle on the story? I never heard or read ANYTHING like what you're intimating here. "Branch was steamed and would holdout if Walker were signed before he got his???"

Maybe you have sources I don't know about, but I think you may be conflating a couple of stories. There were rumors that the Pats might trade for Walker. And I know it was suggested that one reason the Patriots might NOT make the trade was that it could complicate the ongoing negotiations with Branch. But where on Earth was it reported that Branch was mad or had any kind of reaction whatsoever to those Walker rumors??? And that he'd holdout if Walker got a big contract from the Pats? Really?????

Please elaborate.

I believe it was Felger and it was just that day or two before the draft when the rumors were flying that Walker was either here, on his way here or being held hostage to keep him from getting here. As I recall there was some talk just before that that Walker so wanted out of GB that he might come here without a new deal for the chance to revive his stock. Then when the rumors really began to pick up steam and Denver and NE were said to be the frontrunners, I believe it was Felger who said that sources close to Branch were saying Branch was very upset about the Walker talk, and that if Walker was brought in and he did not have his deal he would hold out.

That was actually when the word holdout was first whispered. And we also found out around that time that Deion had not been attending the voluntary workout program for the first time, and then after the draft he didn't attend voluntary passing camp also for the first time.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I would guess that the "endorsement issue" probably has more to do with guys being told to accept less than their market value in NE because the Bradys and Bruschis and Troy Browns did. Those guys make up what they left on the table in endorsement $. A Tom Ashworth or David Givens or Branch doesn't have a lot of endorsement opportunities so they feel the team is comparing apples and oranges when saying those other guys stayed for less $. Something along the lines of "They didn't really leave $ on the table because they made it up off the field and I can't."

Could be - but Richard Seymour's endorsement power and Dan Koppen's are two very different things (to compare two guys both interested in an extension this offseason)

Even if the team is using endorsements to make a lower salary more enticing there's only so much they can do to sweeten the pot.

Ultimately the team can't create lucrative endorsement deals if there's no demand.

 

[dhamz]

Even if the team is using endorsements to make a lower salary more enticing there's only so much they can do to sweeten the pot.

Ultimately the team can't create lucrative endorsement deals if there's no demand.

I don't think the team is using endorsements to make lower deals more enticing. I think players who have a ton of endorsements here like Bruschi and Brady were willing to sign here for less. Troy Brown said before last season his local endorsements made up the difference between the Pats and Saints offers.

I can see why a Koppen who has zero endorsement potential doesn't like hearing from the team that "Brady took less" when Koppen probably makes almost all his $ from football and Brady probably makes more $ outside of football and by his own admission could make a lot more if he wanted.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I don't think the team is using endorsements to make lower deals more enticing. I think players who have a ton of endorsements here like Bruschi and Brady were willing to sign here for less. Troy Brown said before last season his local endorsements made up the difference between the Pats and Saints offers.

I can see why a Koppen who has zero endorsement potential doesn't like hearing from the team that "Brady took less" when Koppen probably makes almost all his $ from football and Brady probably makes more $ outside of football and by his own admission could make a lot more if he wanted.

That's all par for the course on endorsements... what I can't figure out is why the FBN referenced animosity towards the team or other players when it comes to endorsements.

That's just the nature of the beast.

 

[spacecrime]

We all know what Brady means to the patriots he`s the best there is.
But what about Branch we all here on the board know his regular
season stats . But without Branch clutch performince in the post season
who knows if we would have won them
In 2002 super bowl 10 catches 143 yards td against Carloina.
In 2003 named offensieve player in championship game 116 yds rec 1 td
37 rushing 1 td.
In super bowl against Phila named mvp with 11 rec for 133 yards and 1 td.
In last year loss to Denver 153 yds recieving 8 catches a pats playoff
record for recieving yards.
Do i believe he deserve Chad Johnson,Moss , Smith money. until they
do what he`s done than i say THE PATS ARE SHORT CHANGING HIM

Without Jermaine Wiigins effort in the SNow Bowl we wouold have lost and never sniffed the SB in 2001. Ditto JR Redmond. So what? That makes them better than Lellen Winslow and Barry Sanders because those guys weren't on Superbowl winning teams?

Everyone contibuted. The three SBs weren't possible without contributions from lot of players. That doesn't make them the best at their positions.

Anyway, contracts for future years should be based on the perceived value of the player in those years, not what he did two years ago.