Apparently our weakness is on offense

[mgteich]

We all exagerrate to make our points. We are operating in hindsight, so you all have such little faith in Light, Vollmer, Kaczur and LeVoir that you would give up alot to have Clady and Oher instead. Is it too rash a conclusion to think that you MUST think our OT's are aweful if you would have given up the following get them and then not drafted Vollmer.
====================
Mayo
Butler
2nd round draft choice
Tate
Edelman
(Vollmer) the pick used for him would have been needed elsewhere

Instead we would have Clady, Oher and whoever we picked for the Vollmer draft pick.
===============================================================
I still think that you all must think our tackles are pretty aweful if you would have given up this much.
=======================================================
OHER or VOLLMER and 2 2010 seconds
Finally, you think that with all the draft choices, Belichick would have gotten the same players anyway. I don't think that is possible. HOWEVER, I do agree that Belichick could have come close by trying to trade the 3rd's traded forward and the pick used for Vollmer for #40 and the pick used for Butler. So, I do agree that we could have had Oher and Butler.

Could you link us to all these many posts saying that the OT's are awful and the team should have drafted Clady and Oher because of that?

Also, could you explain to us all how impossible it would have been to find a team to trade the Patriots a 6th or 7th round pick which could have been used to draft Edelman?

Also, given that the team was able to grab multiple draft picks in next year's draft, would you explain how it would have been impossible for the team to have moved picks around to get most, if not all, of the players they drafted?

As for LeVoir...... please.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Apparently Our Weakness Is On the Offense

Belichick signed and cut an excellent blocking TE - Matthews.

Going back to the offseason ... what would anyone here have done differently? The offense looked good heading into the season. Galloway was a bust and Fred Taylor got injured but both were solid decisions at the time. Short of a really decent blocking TE I think we went into the season fine - just hasn't been our year so far in terms of catching a few breaks in the health and/or calls department.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mark,

As you say, you and I would both have drafted LBs earlier in the 2009 draft, whatever our individual preferences on who we would have targeted. I thought we'd wait until our at least our last 2 2nd round picks to draft a safety, and was surprised by the Chung pick at 34 . I wanted a DT in the middle or late rounds, and was shocked by the Brace pick. I certainly had my eye on LB candidates from 2003 on (passing on Karlos Dansby is still painful to think about).

My impression, FWIW, is that once BB makes up his mind to target an area, he does so multiple times. Clearly the secondary was the position which was the focus on his attention last offseason. Bodden, McGowan, Butler and Chung have significantly upgraded our talent in the secondary, the NO debacle notwithstanding. The 2008 team was really limited in what we could do by the latent in our defensive backfield; not so the 2009 time.

I'm hoping that BB will finally address the LBs and pass rush for 2010, since that seems to be the biggest area holding our defense down. The 2010 FA rules (in an uncapped year or in a new CBA) may limit us in FA, but I'm hoping that BB will do for the pass rush what he did for the secondary last year, namely:

- Trade or acquire at least one veteran pass rusher. Julius Peppers and Shawne Merriman are the big names. Ray Edwards might be a nice below the radar signing.
- Draft at least one and possibly 2 pass rushers at the DE/elephant or 3-4 OLB positions.
- Draft a 3-4 DE. There's a lot of good ones likely to be available in the first 4 rounds.

I think we'll be fine in the middle with Mayo, McKenzie and Guyton. I'd love Rolando McClain, but I think he'll be long gone by the time we pick, and I think our pass rushing needs are a greater priority. I'd love another rangy playmaker like Sean Weatherspoon or Bruce Carter, but again, I think our pass rushing needs are a greater priority.

I think you and I are agreed on the need to upgrade the DL and LB positions, focusing on the pass rush. I think that if we did this our speed and playmaking ability in the secondary and LBs would be much more effective.

We don't agree about the OL, but that's a separate issue.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Apparently Our Weakness Is On the Offense

Belichick signed and cut an excellent blocking TE - Matthews.

I never understood that. I thought Matthews could have done a lot for us, and it seemed like we never really gave him much of a chance. Very discouraging.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Apparently Our Weakness Is On the Offense

I never understood that. I thought Matthews could have done a lot for us, and it seemed like we never really gave him much of a chance. Very discouraging.

For all that Matthews accomplished, he might as well have just kept Dave Thomas.

 

[HarkDawg]

Re: Apparently Our Weakness Is On the Offense

I never understood that. I thought Matthews could have done a lot for us, and it seemed like we never really gave him much of a chance. Very discouraging.

It does suck.... but that 53 limit is to blame...... It needs to be increased by a few more at least.




We have Watson and Baker....


Difficult to keep a plethora of TE's when we keep many WR's and RB's...


53 needs to be 58

 

[VJCPatriot]

I think as far as the OL, the Pats need to draft an OG. Neal is in and out with health problems and the line seems to look awful without him. Kaczur is mediocre at best. An upgrade at RT wouldn't hurt either. Vollmer looks promising to take over the LT spot in the future. Hopefully his injury isn't serious. I think if Light wasn't healthy, he'd have played through the injury.

As for would have could haves, I know that Clady is a stud, but Mayo is a stud for our defense. I think the Pats are an MLB and a pass rushing OLB away from crowning the defense. The secondary is deep but inexperienced. They got taken advantage of by Brees, but there's room for improvement and maturation on that front.

 

[mayoclinic]

We all exagerrate to make our points. We are operating in hindsight, so you all have such little faith in Light, Vollmer, Kaczur and LeVoir that you would give up alot to have Clady and Oher instead. Is it too rash a conclusion to think that you MUST think our OT's are aweful if you would have given up the following get them and then not drafted Vollmer.
====================
Mayo
Butler
2nd round draft choice
Tate
Edelman
(Vollmer) the pick used for him would have been needed elsewhere

Instead we would have Clady, Oher and whoever we picked for the Vollmer draft pick.
===============================================================
I still think that you all must think our tackles are pretty aweful if you would have given up this much.
=======================================================
OHER or VOLLMER and 2 2010 seconds
Finally, you think that with all the draft choices, Belichick would have gotten the same players anyway. I don't think that is possible. HOWEVER, I do agree that Belichick could have come close by trying to trade the 3rd's traded forward and the pick used for Vollmer for #40 and the pick used for Butler. So, I do agree that we could have had Oher and Butler.

I have tremendous faith in Vollmer. There is no one (including even Clady) that I would rather have as the future for this team at LT at this point.

In 2008 we had no idea that Vollmer would miraculously appear in 2009. At that point we had a tremendous need at ILB, with an almost perfect player coming available in Mayo, and a lesser need at OT, with Clady an enticing prospect (though he had a bit of a "soft" label, and it wasn't clear that some didn't prefer Brandon Alberts). That wasn't a referendum on Matt Light, but rather a recognition that Light would be replaceable with in 1-3 years. Given that choice at the time, I would take Mayo, and I'd take him again. But, not knowing that Vollmer would show up, and seeing how good Clady was for Denver, it was an agonizing choice, and one which I characterized as "debatable". I know which side of the debate I'd choose (Mayo), but I felt that it was at least arguable. Others have argued that we should have taken DRC instead of Mayo. I've defended the Mayo choice in that argument as well.

I've always liked Light, and thought he has been a solid performer for us. But I think Vollmer is an upgrade at LT, and brings a degree of physical domination and aggression which we haven't had with Light. I'm hoping that Vollmer will remain our LT when he returns.

I think that Kaczur and LeVoir are nice rotational guys, but I'm not particularly comfortable with either as a starter. I argued last spring that upgrading the RT position should be considered. I've always felt that moving Matt Light to RT would be a viable short term solution, rightly or wrongly.

I was against drafting Oher last year. I would have taken Eben Britten over Oher if I had wanted a day 1 RT. In fact, I took Oher off my board completely, based on the judgment that he wasn't a good fit for the Pats. The 2 issues that concerned me were his reputation for inconsistency and mental lapses (some of which was evident in the Senior Bowl practices) and his questionable intelligence, which might limit him in the the Pats' complex system. So far, he seems to have vastly exceeded what I expected from him in the Ravens system. I don't want the #23 pick back, I'm thrilled with Butler and what else we got from that pick. But his performance has made me think again about what might have been if we had a Vollmer-type player at RT as well as LT. I'd love to see us go after that kind of guy in the draft. I think there are some enticing prospects who may come out.

I love James Sanders as my #4 safety, much more than as my #2. I'd love Kaczur and LeVoir as my #3/4 OTs. Not as starting OTs, except by necessity.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Apparently Our Weakness Is On the Offense

There is plently of room on the roster for three TE's. Belichick has chosen to have 12 defensive backs, a VERY large number.

Belichick has chosen to use an OT as his #3 TE.

I agree than the 53 man limit reqwuires choices. The reality is that we have 61 including the Practice Squad. The real limit is the game day limit.

It does suck.... but that 53 limit is to blame...... It needs to be increased by a few more at least.




We have Watson and Baker....


Difficult to keep a plethora of TE's when we keep many WR's and RB's...


53 needs to be 58

 

[mgteich]

I agree with all your position analysis as I did at the time of the draft.

I am a bit higher of Kaczur than you are. However, I certainly supported Britton as an upgrade.

I have tremendous faith in Vollmer. There is no one (including even Clady) that I would rather have as the future for this team at LT at this point.

In 2008 we had no idea that Vollmer would miraculously appear in 2009. At that point we had a tremendous need at ILB, with an almost perfect player coming available in Mayo, and a lesser need at OT, with Clady an enticing prospect (though he had a bit of a "soft" label, and it wasn't clear that some didn't prefer Brandon Alberts). That wasn't a referendum on Matt Light, but rather a recognition that Light would be replaceable with in 1-3 years. Given that choice at the time, I would take Mayo, and I'd take him again. But, not knowing that Vollmer would show up, and seeing how good Clady was for Denver, it was an agonizing choice, and one which I characterized as "debatable". I know which side of the debate I'd choose (Mayo), but I felt that it was at least arguable. Others have argued that we should have taken DRC instead of Mayo. I've defended the Mayo choice in that argument as well.

I've always liked Light, and thought he has been a solid performer for us. But I think Vollmer is an upgrade at LT, and brings a degree of physical domination and aggression which we haven't had with Light. I'm hoping that Vollmer will remain our LT when he returns.

I think that Kaczur and LeVoir are nice rotational guys, but I'm not particularly comfortable with either as a starter. I argued last spring that upgrading the RT position should be considered. I've always felt that moving Matt Light to RT would be a viable short term solution, rightly or wrongly.

I was against drafting Oher last year. I would have taken Eben Britten over Oher if I had wanted a day 1 RT. In fact, I took Oher off my board completely, based on the judgment that he wasn't a good fit for the Pats. The 2 issues that concerned me were his reputation for inconsistency and mental lapses (some of which was evident in the Senior Bowl practices) and his questionable intelligence, which might limit him in the the Pats' complex system. So far, he seems to have vastly exceeded what I expected from him in the Ravens system. I don't want the #23 pick back, I'm thrilled with Butler and what else we got from that pick. But his performance has made me think again about what might have been if we had a Vollmer-type player at RT as well as LT. I'd love to see us go after that kind of guy in the draft. I think there are some enticing prospects who may come out.

I love James Sanders as my #4 safety, much more than as my #2. I'd love Kaczur and LeVoir as my #3/4 OTs. Not as starting OTs, except by necessity.

 

[mgteich]

I thought that we needed to draft a guard in the 2009 draft who could fill in for Neal when he was out injured. Belichick chose Ohrnberger for the future and Connolly for 2009 (after trying others).

I agree than we will again need to draft a guard in 2010 draft. He should also be able to push Koppen at center.

I think as far as the OL, the Pats need to draft an OG. Neal is in and out with health problems and the line seems to look awful without him. Kaczur is mediocre at best. An upgrade at RT wouldn't hurt either. Vollmer looks promising to take over the LT spot in the future. Hopefully his injury isn't serious. I think if Light wasn't healthy, he'd have played through the injury.

As for would have could haves, I know that Clady is a stud, but Mayo is a stud for our defense. I think the Pats are an MLB and a pass rushing OLB away from crowning the defense. The secondary is deep but inexperienced. They got taken advantage of by Brees, but there's room for improvement and maturation on that front.

 

[mayoclinic]

I thought that we needed to draft a guard in the 2009 draft who could fill in for Neal when he was out injured. Belichick chose Ohrnberger for the future and Connolly for 2009 (after trying others).

I agree than we will again need to draft a guard in 2010 draft. He should also be able to push Koppen at center.

You mentioned before that we passed up the opportunity to draft a "stud" OG prospect (Max Unger or Andy Levitre) in the 2nd round last year.

This year there are quite a few OG or OG/C prospects who I consider much better than Unger or Levitre, and several who are at least comparable:

1. Players I consider much better OG/C prospects than Max Unger or Andy Levitre:

- Maurkice Pouncey, OG/C
- Mike Iupati, OG
- Gabe Carimi, OT/OG

2. Players I consider comparable OG/C prospects to Max Unger or Andy Levitre:

- Mike Jonson, OG
- Mike Pouncey, OG
- Vladimir Ducasse, OT/OG

Possibly also Jon Asamoah.

 

[mgteich]

DE/OLB
1) I wanted to consider a DE in 2009. However, I agree with Belichick's focus on the secondary and getting Butler instead.

2) I certainly hope that your analysis for 2010 is Belichick's. He has his safeties through 2011. He has three young corners for the future and will retain Bodden or Springs and bring in the usual free agents to compete for a roster spot. It is time to move on. Of course, if Belichick sees value, he could still draft a corner.

3) I would like to see us focus on the DE and OLB's in the 2010 and 2011 much as we ahve focused oin the secondary these past two years.

4) I certainly hope that we sign Wilfork for the $10M a year he is worth. We could franchise and trade him and get an extra 1st, but NT's are not easy to get. It would take most of our draft to get Suh. It would much better to "overpay" for Wilfork.


ILB
Guyton has been OK and we haven't seen McKenzie. I think that we will still need a runstuffing ILB. But, since we passed in 2009 when the need was even more obvious, I agree that we will need to hope that one of Guyton and McKenzie will be future probowl material.

Mark,

As you say, you and I would both have drafted LBs earlier in the 2009 draft, whatever our individual preferences on who we would have targeted. I thought we'd wait until our at least our last 2 2nd round picks to draft a safety, and was surprised by the Chung pick at 34 . I wanted a DT in the middle or late rounds, and was shocked by the Brace pick. I certainly had my eye on LB candidates from 2003 on (passing on Karlos Dansby is still painful to think about).

My impression, FWIW, is that once BB makes up his mind to target an area, he does so multiple times. Clearly the secondary was the position which was the focus on his attention last offseason. Bodden, McGowan, Butler and Chung have significantly upgraded our talent in the secondary, the NO debacle notwithstanding. The 2008 team was really limited in what we could do by the latent in our defensive backfield; not so the 2009 time.

I'm hoping that BB will finally address the LBs and pass rush for 2010, since that seems to be the biggest area holding our defense down. The 2010 FA rules (in an uncapped year or in a new CBA) may limit us in FA, but I'm hoping that BB will do for the pass rush what he did for the secondary last year, namely:

- Trade or acquire at least one veteran pass rusher. Julius Peppers and Shawne Merriman are the big names. Ray Edwards might be a nice below the radar signing.
- Draft at least one and possibly 2 pass rushers at the DE/elephant or 3-4 OLB positions.
- Draft a 3-4 DE. There's a lot of good ones likely to be available in the first 4 rounds.

I think we'll be fine in the middle with Mayo, McKenzie and Guyton. I'd love Rolando McClain, but I think he'll be long gone by the time we pick, and I think our pass rushing needs are a greater priority. I'd love another rangy playmaker like Sean Weatherspoon or Bruce Carter, but again, I think our pass rushing needs are a greater priority.

I think you and I are agreed on the need to upgrade the DL and LB positions, focusing on the pass rush. I think that if we did this our speed and playmaking ability in the secondary and LBs would be much more effective.

We don't agree about the OL, but that's a separate issue.

 

[Deus Irae]

We all exagerrate to make our points. We are operating in hindsight, so you all have such little faith in Light, Vollmer, Kaczur and LeVoir that you would give up alot to have Clady and Oher instead. Is it too rash a conclusion to think that you MUST think our OT's are aweful if you would have given up the following get them and then not drafted Vollmer.

Yes, it is.

Mayo
Butler
2nd round draft choice
Tate
Edelman
(Vollmer) the pick used for him would have been needed elsewhere

Instead we would have Clady, Oher and whoever we picked for the Vollmer draft pick.

Indeed, the Patriots would have the best left tackle in the game and the best tackle from the 2009 draft as well.

I still think that you all must think our tackles are pretty aweful if you would have given up this much.

Feel free to use the search function. I've been one of Light's defenders.

OHER or VOLLMER and 2 2010 seconds
Finally, you think that with all the draft choices, Belichick would have gotten the same players anyway. I don't think that is possible. HOWEVER, I do agree that Belichick could have come close by trying to trade the 3rd's traded forward and the pick used for Vollmer for #40 and the pick used for Butler. So, I do agree that we could have had Oher and Butler.

Obviously, it's possible. That's really not debatable. It's a matter of how you manipulate the draft. Whether or not Belichick would have still made the moves is a different question.

What's funny is that I just happened to throw out the point. I didn't bash any players, and I didn't complain about any players. I've got no problem with Butler, Vollmer or Edelman. Tate was a luxury pick because the team had so many to use, so I have no problem with that choice either, even if the kid never plays another down for the Patriots.

However, I think it's fair to say that the offensive line would be much improved with Clady and Oher as the bookends, and pointing that out doesn't make me 'hate' the current tackles anymore than noting that I'd like to have gotten Adrian Peterson as the team's running back would mean that I hated Maroney, or my pointing out that I wish the team had kept Graham means that I hate Watson.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I have seen many posts that have indicated that our OT's are aweful (apparently including Vollmer) that we should have given up Mayo and Butler in order to upgrade the position in the last two drafts by drafting Clady and Oher. We also would have to have given up a 2nd rounder, but we used a second on Vollmer so that is a wash. We also would have to have lost Edelman and Tate, but that isn't a big deal.

They still could've taken Butler with their first pick in the second round.

We spend literally years discussing the necessity of rebuilding the defense and making it younger and and faster. HOWEVER, even when we get studs like Mayo and Butler, this board wishes that Belichick had decided NOT to upgrade the defense and instead upgraded our OT's. Over the past two years, Belichick has picked up Vollmer and LeVoir. The consensus seems to be that we should have brought in Oher and Clady instead of Mayo and Butler. Then, of course, we would have no need for Vollmer. Besides, we would have given up up the equivalent of the 2nd we used for Vollmer.

OF COURSE, these same posters would then have been criticizing Belichick's failure to upgrade the defense.

Sorry, I like Butler, but to call him a stud is a little premature. In addition, the reason why people are starting to question the Pats not taking Clady is because of how the Pats value their draft picks. Taking what we've learned from the Pats drafting philosophy, high draft picks usually involve investing in lineman on either side of the ball. As much as I want the Pats to upgrade the defense, I didn't like the selection of Mayo at 10. It was way to high for what he does. In my opinion, he's pretty one dimensional which shocks me why the Pats drafting him so high. In terms of Value, Clady should've been the choice.

Meanwhile, a lot of people on this board agree that the Pats really dropped the ball by not taking an OT who was projected a top 10-15 selection that fell to the Pats at 24. Common sense would point out, if you want to throw as much as the Pats do, you may want to invest in some talented offensive lineman. Oh yeah, did I mention that your franchise QB is coming off of a major knee injury? That is why their 2009 draft is mind boggling to me. Oher fell right into their lap and could've been their RT or LT of the future. It irritates me every time I see Oher playing so well for the Ravens because he should've been a Patriot.

 

[JoeShmoe]

If youre watching the game today you can see we need Pass Rushers - DESPERATELY