6 players reached escalators

[Isaac]

Miguel--sorry if I missed it but do you have an estimate of the Patriots cap figure at the beginning of free agency (given these escalators but before the Vrabel/Cassel trade)? I'm wondering exactly how tight against the cap they really were.

 

[Urgent]

ok, well then I have a question about that.

let's say you're right exactly at the cap and some escalators kick in to put you over.
how long do you get to operate over the limit and what does the league do to police that, as far as penalties go?
is it just a case of being unable to get any new signing approved by the league 'til you get back under?

As Miguel notes, you cannot exceed the cap.

In basketball, you can exceed the cap, as most teams do, and this restricts you from signing external free agents. Even then, there are exceptions and allowances to still sign additional players.

In baseball, there's really no cap at all, but there is a very high salary limit, above which you pay a luxury tax to the Marlins.

In the NFL, it's a hard cap. A good example of this is the Lawyer Milloy transaction several years ago. During the off-season, you hear about the "Rule of 51," stating that only the 51 most expensive players count against the cap. At the start of the season, around Labor Day, all players count - the 53-man active squad, IR, practice squad. The Patriots were so close to the cap that year that going from 51 to full team would have placed the Patriots over the cap. They had been negotiating with Lawyer Milloy to reduce his cap charge. When they were unable to reach an agreement, rather than go over the cap they released him outright, with no compensation. The penalties for going over the cap are strict. I'm not positive exactly what they are, but they include loss of draft picks. They are obviously serious enough that teams do anything to avoid them.

 

[DW Toys]

Not necessarily. I'll give you 3 reasons:

1) AD's first year Cap hit was only $3.4 mil. They could easily sign Peppers and only have a $4 mil cap hit this year. Haynesworht's huge deal only carries about a $6.5 mil cap hit - and that's because they have him a $6 mil salary. They could have easily brought that down by $4 mil.
2) If they sign Peppers, they'll probably have to give up their 1st rounder - which will free up close to $1.5 mil in cap space.
3) With Peppers in the fold, they could retract their RFA offer to Woods, freeing up an additional $1.5 mil.

So there's one quite possible scenario where the Pats can bring in Peppers for a net cap hit of $1 mil.

Good info. Can anyone confirm?
DW Toys

 

[bucky]

Good info. Can anyone confirm?
DW Toys

I got all the Patriots salary info from Miguel's page. Merriweather's 1st year cap hit was about $1.2 mil - so that's what I used to estimate the 1st round cap hit.

And Hayneworth's deal is outlined by Peter King - Bart Scott, Matt Cassel, Chris Canty revel in free agency madness - Peter King - SI.com

The only leap of faith here is whether the Patriots can actually retract an RFA tender.

 

[Jimke]

Miguel--sorry if I missed it but do you have an estimate of the Patriots cap figure at the beginning of free agency (given these escalators but before the Vrabel/Cassel trade)? I'm wondering exactly how tight against the cap they really were.

I can't answer your question directly but I did read that the Pats had to

tweak Randy Moss's contract for $750,000 to sign Fred Taylor. This

would indicate to me they were tight against the cap.

 

[Isaac]

...The penalties for going over the cap are strict. I'm not positive exactly what they are, but they include loss of draft picks. They are obviously serious enough that teams do anything to avoid them.

I didn't think they were penalties--I thought they just started canceling contracts (most recently signed first) until you were under the cap. I don't know if this has ever happened though.

 

[patsfaninpa]

I think we were very tight against it. That's why C.Baker signing was immediately reported either.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I didn't think they were penalties--I thought they just started canceling contracts (most recently signed first) until you were under the cap. I don't know if this has ever happened though.

Not so........

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I got all the Patriots salary info from Miguel's page. Merriweather's 1st year cap hit was about $1.2 mil - so that's what I used to estimate the 1st round cap hit.

And Hayneworth's deal is outlined by Peter King - Bart Scott, Matt Cassel, Chris Canty revel in free agency madness - Peter King - SI.com

The only leap of faith here is whether the Patriots can actually retract an RFA tender.

You cannot construct the kind of deal that allows for a wildly artificially low 1st year cap hit under an expiring CBA and still reach guaranteed money totals because of the 30% rule under an expiring CBA. If you could have the Redskins certainly would have. BTW King's breakdown of the Haynesworth deal would result in a $7M cap hit this year.

On one of the Redskins cap pages Miguel links to they have his 2009 cap hit at $7.9M and his salaries in compliance with the 30% rule and a totally different bonus structure than Peter details. It wouldn't be the first time Peter garbled player cap/contract info. He was entirely off the mark in breaking down Brady's deal in 2005.

http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm

So if a player like Peppers wants a deal that averages $10-12M per and guarantees you see that over the first 3-4 seasons, the first year cap hit is going to be at least several million under an expiring CBA.

Teams can rescind RFA tenders but that makes the player an immediate UFA.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Not so........

My understanding is that is so. Of course the league gets to look at and approve deals on a case by case basis so it shouldn't happen. But if on the eve of the season a team is somehow over the cap the league mandates they get back under or they begin to rescind contracts from last to first. Penalties for violating the cap only come up if the league discovers a deliberate attempt to circumvent the cap, like what Denver did with Elway and his under the table salary deferrals (he and others were getting paid more than reported only on a deferred basis).

 

[AzPatsFan]

A team can never be over the cap once the league year begins. The league figured out before free agency began how much the salaries of these 6 players were increased because of earned escalators. When I said that the escalators kicked in at the start of free agency, I meant that a year ago Wilfork's 2009 salary was listed as $800,000 on the NFLPA site and there were reports that the Pats were X dollars under the cap that report was using the $800,000 salary. It was not until really close to February 27th that cap reports reflected Wilfork's 2009 salary of $2,200,000.

That is not PRECISELY true. Starting on the 27th, you have to have the top paid 51 or athe lower signed total to be under the cap. But until final cut-down you can have as many as 80 players signed to proposed contracts, aggregating to well over the cap. If one of those 80 makes more than the top 51 he replaces one of those players and you still need to have the revised top 51, be under the CAP in that circumstance.

Think of these 80 players as not really signed to contracts; they have only signed proposed contracts that would come into effect, IF they make the final roster the week of the first game.

 

[Miguel]

2) If they sign Peppers, they'll probably have to give up their 1st rounder - which will free up close to $1.5 mil in cap space.

That 1st rounder counts $0 in cap space right now. Giving that up therefore will save no money in cap space.

 

[Miguel]

That is not PRECISELY true. Starting on the 27th, you have to have the top paid 51 or athe lower signed total to be under the cap. But until final cut-down you can have as many as 80 players signed to proposed contracts, aggregating to well over the cap. If one of those 80 makes more than the top 51 he replaces one of those players and you still need to have the revised top 51, be under the CAP in that circumstance.

Think of these 80 players as not really signed to contracts; they have only signed proposed contracts that would come into effect, IF they make the final roster the week of the first game.

This is what AZPatsfan is talking about:

"The highest applicable Salary set forth in Paragraph 5 of the NFL Player Contract shall be included in Team Salary in the year earned, except that, between March 1 and the first day of the regular playing season,
only the following amounts from Paragraph 5 shall be included for players whose Player Contracts are not among the Team’s 51 highest valued Player Contracts, tenders and Offer Sheets (as determined under this
Section 7):
(1) Any amount that exceeds the Minimum Active/Inactive List Salary for Undrafted Rookie Free
Agents; and
(2) Any amount that exceeds twice the applicable Minimum Active/Inactive List Salary for all other"


players.

 

[Miguel]

Miguel--sorry if I missed it but do you have an estimate of the Patriots cap figure at the beginning of free agency (given these escalators but before the Vrabel/Cassel trade)? I'm wondering exactly how tight against the cap they really were.

Peter King said that they were $1.7 million under their adjusted cap at the advent of free agency.

 

[Miguel]

That is not PRECISELY true.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[DW Toys]

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

How much do we have left, actually?
DW Toys

 

[mgteich]

We have $12.8M as of this evening.
However this number is a bit misleading since we will need cap money for the following later in the season:
The rookies (The four first day picks will cost cap monies)
Player 52 and Player 53 (only 51 count now)
The Practice Squad
Replacements for players on IR by the beginning of the season
A reserve for replacements needed during the year

You can make your own estimate of the costs of these items. My guess is at least $5.8M, leaving us with $7M to work with in free agency and in extending players.

How much do we have left, actually?
DW Toys

 

[Miguel]

Player 52 and Player 53 (only 51 count now)

FYI - While the salaries of the players not in the Top 51 currently do not count against the cap, any offseason workout bonus money counts. While the salaries of the players not in the Top 51 currently do not count against the cap, any roster bonus counts. While the salaries of the players not in the Top 51 currently do not count against the cap, any prorated signing bonus amortization counts.

 

[Miguel]

We have $12.8M as of this evening.
However this number is a bit misleading since we will need cap money for the following later in the season:
The rookies (The four first day picks will cost cap monies)
Player 52 and Player 53 (only 51 count now)
The Practice Squad
Replacements for players on IR by the beginning of the season
A reserve for replacements needed during the year

I would also add a reserve for NLTBE incentives that may be reached during the season. Example, if Wilfork makes the Pro Bowl this year, he gets a $400,000 bonus. That would immediately count against the 2009 cap.

You are forgetting the cap effect of a lower paid player beating out a higher paid player for a roster spot which adds cap space.

 

[mgteich]

Is $6M to $7M a good working estimate for what we have available in free agency?

I would also add a reserve for NLTBE incentives that may be reached during the season. Example, if Wilfork makes the Pro Bowl this year, he gets a $400,000 bonus. That would immediately count against the 2009 cap.

So, if a team is close and wint he SB and has players reach to pro bowl and thus earn incentives, they have to cut players after the Super owl has been played, presumably their free agents?

You are forgetting the cap effect of a lower paid player beating out a higher paid player for a roster spot which adds cap space.