Brady vs Manning Debate to end this year?

speed said:

1) Brady has a better career QB rating in domes, and has a better career QB rating in outdoor stadiums. Granted Manning has a better overall QB rating, sic

Am I missing something?

Click to expand...

Yes, and I should have elaborated. Manning plays about 10 games a season in domed stadiums. Brady plays about 2-3. Their dome ratings are both >100 (with Brady's being 1.5 points higher), while their outdoor ratings are closer to 85 (they're very close on this one, I think Brady was up by 1 point going into this season). Manning has a better career QB rating because he plays more than half his games in domes (where he's putting up the higher rating), while Brady has a lower overall because almost all of his games are outdoors.

Hopefully this all makes sense, I'm not just making things up and I'll try to find the link to back all this up.

speed said:

1) Brady has a better career QB rating in domes, and has a better career QB rating in outdoor stadiums. Granted Manning has a better overall QB rating, sic

Am I missing something?

Click to expand...

Yes. If I have a 110 rating in domes, and you have a 100 rating, my rating in domes is higher, correct? Now if I have an 85 rating outdoors and you have an 80 rating, my rating outdoors is higher, correct?

Now if you play the bulk of your games in domes, and the bulk of my games are played outdoors, your rating would be higher because you would have a larger amount of higher-rated games factored into your numbers. For example, if you play 10 games of a season in domes, and 6 outdoors, and for the sake of easy math the numbers are the same, you would have 100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,80,80,80,80,80,80 as your season ratings for an average of: 92.5. If I play 14 games outdoors, and 2 in domes, I would have 85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,110,110,110,110 to be factored in, for an average of 91.25.

NEPatriot said:

If you look at the record of Brady and Manning in the past few years, you will see that Brady improves his every year while manning's one does not reflect it.

Brady undoubtly is getting better and performs well without star team mates. Brady is the best QB because of his consistent and persistent performance.

Click to expand...

I agree that Brady gets better and better, and thus I expect the end result of his career will result in him being rated as one of the top QBs of all time.

mgteich said:

And Brady has never won games because of the performance of our defense and special teams? The colts defense carried Manning last year. Now that is truly funny. Until Bob Sanders came back late in the year, the colts defense was among the very worst in football.

Click to expand...

I didn't say that. I said that IN THE PLAYOFFS the defense carried Manning and company. His ratings for those games were 71.9, 39.6, 79.2 and 81.9. He had a better rating than ALL of those games in twelve of his 16 regular season starts in '06.

Further, Manning has had just three (out of 13) playoff games with ratings over 100--two wild card games and one divisional game. Brady has had 5 out of 14 games with >100 ratings: SB, AFCCG, SB, and two WC games. Brady has had one playoff game with a < 70 rating, Manning has had 5.

Tom Brady will be inducted into Hall of Frame. There is no question about that.

CUSoon said:

Obviously Colts fans love and appreciate Manning and would not want another QB. And Pats fans feel the same way about Brady.

Click to expand...

Colts fans look at their QB in a different light than Pats fans. Manning was never a winner, and he finally won one, so it doesn't really matter if he wins or loses from here on out. Now Brady, he is a winner, he came into the league winning and it's uncommon for him to lose a playoff game.

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_1107_Waterboarding_the_data_in_our_Gridiron_Gitmo.html

I knew it was out there somewhere. Give that article a once-over, and remember that all this was tabulated before Brady's record-breaking 2007.

None of my posts are to say that Manning is anything but the second best QB in the NFL and one of the all time greats. I will never argue against that. He is, however, second fiddle to Brady in my opinion.

mgteich said:

And Brady has never won games because of the performance of our defense and special teams? The colts defense carried Manning last year. Now that is truly funny. Until Bob Sanders came back late in the year, the colts defense was among the very worst in football.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. What a concept! Defense winning a championship! It's a team sport. And the Colts delivered last year as a team in the playoffs. But, Manning carried the team in the regular season. The defense played great since the first snap of the first playoff game. I do not think Manning played very well in the playoffs until the second half of the AFCCG against the Patriots. Thats when the team as a whole came together.

And Vinatieri with his clutch kicks in the Ravens playoff game. Loved it.

No way do I expect Manning to do it all alone. But, I am curious as to how he performs in the playoffs this year without the can't win the big one pressure on his back. Hopefully he delivers. He has been playing good football the last several games.

richpats said:

Colts fans look at their QB in a different light than Pats fans. Manning was never a winner, and he finally won one, so it doesn't really matter if he wins or loses from here on out. Now Brady, he is a winner, he came into the league winning and it's uncommon for him to lose a playoff game.

Click to expand...

So then does it bother you that the Pats have not been in the Super Bowl the last few years? And would it bother you this season if they get upset in the playoffs?

Since you consider Brady a winner. If he does not win and deliver will you be upset? It's a team sport and everyone has to do their part, not just Brady and Manning.

And yes it does matter to Colts fans if we win or lose. Thats a silly statement. You win one Super Bowl and you want another. And we have lost only two games since the SB by a combined 6 points. Winning is addictive.

But, what you are also saying in terms of it not mattering for Manning is that the pressure if off Manning. He won the big one and shut people up. But, that does not mean the team as a whole does not want to win again.

hambone1818 said:

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_1107_Waterboarding_the_data_in_our_Gridiron_Gitmo.html

I knew it was out there somewhere. Give that article a once-over, and remember that all this was tabulated before Brady's record-breaking 2007.

None of my posts are to say that Manning is anything but the second best QB in the NFL and one of the all time greats. I will never argue against that. He is, however, second fiddle to Brady in my opinion.

Click to expand...

That was the flavor of the month last month......

Here is what they said after the fish game.....

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co...son_downgraded_to_'one_of'_greatest_ever.html

TheGodInAGreyHoodie said:

That was the flavor of the month last month......

Here is what they said after the fish game.....

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co...son_downgraded_to_'one_of'_greatest_ever.html

Click to expand...

Certainly, but I was using the article to make a point. I wasn't arguing for this season in a vacuum, more for their careers as a whole taking into account their receivers over the years and the conditions under which they accumulated those statistics. And in that regard, the CHHF article I referenced is still relevant: Brady has a better career rating both indoors and outdoors, and may well have a better overall rating when their careers are over (Manning is now at 94.7, Brady has jumped up to 92.7 with a few more peak seasons ahead of him).

hambone1818 said:

Certainly, but I was using the article to make a point. I wasn't arguing for this season in a vacuum, more for their careers as a whole taking into account their receivers over the years and the conditions under which they accumulated those statistics. And in that regard, the CHHF article I referenced is still relevant: Brady has a better career rating both indoors and outdoors, and may well have a better overall rating when their careers are over (Manning is now at 94.7, Brady has jumped up to 92.7 with a few more peak seasons ahead of him).

Click to expand...

Okay, what's Peyton's rating when throwing to Moss? What is Brady's rating when throwing to Harrison?

For every stat that says Brady is better you can find a stat that Manning is better, for every stat that says Manning is better there is a stat that says Brady is better.

So to answer the question, "Brady vs Manning Debate to end this year?"

NO!!!

hambone1818 said:

1) Brady has a better career QB rating in domes, and has a better career QB rating in outdoor stadiums. Granted Manning has a better overall QB rating, but he rarely has to deal with New England weather during the winter and plays more than half his games in a dome.
2) Brady has had some good receivers over the years, but nothing compared with Manning. Here's every receiver they've thrown to who's had over 1,000 yards, per season:

Manning - (06) Harrison, Wayne; (05) Wayne, Harrison; (04) Wayne, Harrison, Stokley; (03) Harrison; (02) Harrison
Brady - (06) -none-, (05) -none-; (04) -none-; (03) -none-; (02) -none-

Not a single 1,000 yard receiver in 5 complete seasons while Manning had a total of NINE 1,000 yard receivers in those same years.

So let me get this straight: Brady has a better career rating in domes, a better career rating in outdoor stadiums, and yet he hasn't had anything near the quality of receivers that Manning has had? Plus he's come up huge in almost every big game he's every participated in while Manning has wilted under the pressure of the players year in and year out (and don't kid yourselves...he was TERRIBLE in the playoffs last year, the defense carried him to the AFCCG)?

Yeah, I have my answer. Read up on Cold, Hard, Football Facts, they've poured over these numbers and come to the same conclusion: Brady is, quite simply, the better of the two quarterbacks in every regard.

Click to expand...

Thats a valid point, but you could also use the argument that manning made his recievers good, whereas brady's recievers were made good with other teams then snuck into new england.

Look at a guy like Antonio Freeman. Stick him on an average team in the 90s and you have a slightly above average WR. Put him with Favre and you have one of the best. There was someone who wrote an article on this earlier.

The point is... Manning is on pace to have the best stats in almost every catergory. And has a superbowl.

Brady has 3 Superbowls and is on pace to be up ther with some of the best stats in history.

I think the only way manning is consensus better than brady is if he wins atleast 3 superbowls, with brady not winning another.

Only way i think brady is consensus over manning is if he over takes him in nearly every passing stat.

Neither I see happening, so debates like this will continue.

Instead of arguing it, enjoy it. We may not see 2 better QBs in the same era again in our life times.

Fine, then lets put it this way: Brady has a better QB rating in domes, a better QB rating outdoors, a better QB rating in the playoffs, a better regular season winning percentage, a better postseason winning percentage, has won more Super Bowls and has a better track record in the playoffs and big games in general. And he's done all this with what most would say was lesser receiving talent (only relevant when comparing the ratings, not the W/L %, I know).

Quite frankly, there are no statistics that would indicate to me that Manning is a better QB...( for example, he has more yards and more TD's but has also done so in more seasons and in a dome with better receivers).

And to reiterate: I'm not bashing Manning, he scares me more than any other opposing QB in the league and has for quite some time. When all is said and done he'll probably hold many significant career passing records, and will deserve every one of them. But the better QB is Brady, there is no doubt in my mind.

Boylanca said:

Thats a valid point, but you could also use the argument that manning made his recievers good, whereas brady's recievers were made good with other teams then snuck into new england.

Click to expand...

100% correct, and it's always been a sticking point when arguing the relative merits of the two QB's. Unfortunately it's not something one can really compare...how good would Harrison have been if he had balls thrown to him by David Carr or Byron Leftwich? Would Troy Brown have turned into the great slot receiver he was in '01 and '02 without Brady?

That said, I think--just by the 'eye test' (as in, watch the games, see the results)--it's a reasonable argument to say that Harrison and Wayne are the two best receivers among the bunch (that is, of course, until Moss came to NE), and Manning has had the two of them for 9 and 6 seasons, respectively, not including this season. Harrison was taken 5th overall, Wayne 7th overall...Brown was an 8th rounder, Branch was a mid-2nd round pick.

Does Manning make the two of them better receivers? Absolutely no doubt about it, and Brady does the same with his guys. But Harrison and Wayne were damn fine before they came to Indy, too, whereas it seems most of Brady's targets until this season were retreads (Gafney, Caldwell, Patten) or mid-round talent (Givens, Brown, Branch to a lesser extent).

mgteich said:

And Brady has never won games because of the performance of our defense and special teams? The colts defense carried Manning last year. Now that is truly funny. Until Bob Sanders came back late in the year, the colts defense was among the very worst in football.

Click to expand...

Mg,
Please clarify. Are you saying in your opinion Manning is better than Brady?
To your other comments:
1) Every QB is affected by his defense and special teams. So the answer is every QB has won because of the performance of his D and ST. However, that does not hold any relevance in comparing possibly the best winner of all-time with anyone else, including a guy who has been the reason his team lost im many big games.
2) The Colt defense was the reason the Colts won the SB. There is absolutely no question. The 2006 Colts vs all of the other versions all had Manning come up small in the playoffs. The difference in 2006 was that while he was coming up small his defense played tremendously.

Boylanca said:

Thats a valid point, but you could also use the argument that manning made his recievers good, whereas brady's recievers were made good with other teams then snuck into new england.

Look at a guy like Antonio Freeman. Stick him on an average team in the 90s and you have a slightly above average WR. Put him with Favre and you have one of the best. There was someone who wrote an article on this earlier.

The point is... Manning is on pace to have the best stats in almost every catergory. And has a superbowl.

Brady has 3 Superbowls and is on pace to be up ther with some of the best stats in history.

I think the only way manning is consensus better than brady is if he wins atleast 3 superbowls, with brady not winning another.

Only way i think brady is consensus over manning is if he over takes him in nearly every passing stat.

Neither I see happening, so debates like this will continue.

Instead of arguing it, enjoy it. We may not see 2 better QBs in the same era again in our life times.

Click to expand...

There isnt really a debate between Brady and Manning, but rather a debate between whether you value championships or numbers.
I have no problem with this topic, because I value Championships substantially more than numbers. I have a hard time understanding how anyone doesn't feel that way. You play to win championships, so why would the numbers you built up along the way to not winning overcome the fact that you didn't win? And this is where a statistic crazed American fan base is off-kilter IMO.
I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that if you replaced a 'big stat guy' who never won a Champinship with a lesser stat guy who won multiple championships, the lesser stat guy would have probably won one.
Example. Dan Marino. I scoff every time I hear him mention as one of the best ever. He was only one of the best at compiling statistics. His teams lost, and in almost every season, HIS PLAY was the primary reason. Now, you could argue that there was pressure on him because they asked him to do so much. But when he failed under that pressure in big games, doesnt the fact that he 'was asked to do so much' in less important games, and against weak teams belittle the stats? Look at the Pats in 1994. Bledsoe set a record for most passes. It could be argued that he 'carried' the team. However, in the playoffs (against BB by the way) he FAILED to carry the team. If you argue that he shouldn't be expected to carry the team, then you cannot compare his stats, built on 700 pass attempts to someone who wasn't asked to do so.
I have no doubt at all in my mind, that if instead of Dan Marino, the Dolphins had drafted Joe Montana or John Elway, they would have won at least one, and maybe more SBs in that era. They wouldn't have set passing records, but they wouldn't have had their 'leader' come up small in big games.

So the debate isn't really Brady vs Manning, its what do you value titles or stats.

TheGodInAGreyHoodie said:

Okay, what's Peyton's rating when throwing to Moss? What is Brady's rating when throwing to Harrison?

For every stat that says Brady is better you can find a stat that Manning is better, for every stat that says Manning is better there is a stat that says Brady is better.

So to answer the question, "Brady vs Manning Debate to end this year?"

NO!!!

Click to expand...

What stats say that Manning is better?

I can't ever respect a man who thinks it's funny to lay his sack across a trainers nose. Manning is a spoiled little teabagging freak.

mesoslo said:

If tom brady leads the patriots to an undefeated regular season(break manning single season touchdown record and help Randy Moss break the most touchdown record for a WR) and also win the superbowl. Will those things be used to cement Brady as the best QB ever and better than peyton manning.

Click to expand...

Yes....to be honest....He already is......Manning is a great QB....but he has been exposed this year....when you took away his pro bowl receivers and gave him more "average" receivers (like A.Gonazalez)....he struggled......Anyways.....Brady is the greatest QB of all time.......!!!!!