Chandler Compared To # TE's - How Much Worse Is He?

We have the top TE in the league. When one looks at our #2, I'd expect less production than from other #2's.

QUESTION ONE
What is the total production from our TE's compared to other teams?

QUESTION TWO
What is the production of Chandler compared to other #2's?

QUESTION THREE
Of course, we should look to upgrade at TER, just like any other position. Chandler is under contract. Why should we cut him before camp? Why shouldn't we allow Chandler to compete in camp, and then cut him if he is beaten out? Maybe, we won't find anyone better for $2M of new money, or of reasobale value for an upgrade.

We have the top TE in the league. When one looks at our #2, I'd expect less production than from other #2's.

QUESTION ONE
What is the total production from our TE's compared to other teams?

QUESTION TWO
What is the production of Chandler compared to other #2's?

QUESTION THREE
Of course, we should look to upgrade at TER, just like any other position. Chandler is under contract. Why should we cut him before camp? Why shouldn't we allow Chandler to compete in camp, and then cut him if he is beaten out? Maybe, we won't find anyone better for $2M of new money, or of reasobale value for an upgrade.

And just maybe, Cahndler will be better in his second year.


BOTTOM LINE
There's no reason to rush to make a cut.

But I like cutting. It makes me feel alive.

For me it doesn't come down to numbers it comes down to the fact that Brady clearly lost trust in him because of all the critical drops. I thought Chandler was a good signing because of his play against the Patriots as a Bill but he really played poorly this season and I think they need to go get a viable #2 that Brady can trust. I would go after Dwayne Allen in free agency and keep an eye on Marcellus Bennett who is likely to be cut by Chicago.

Ivan said:

For me it doesn't come down to numbers it comes down to the fact that Brady clearly lost trust in him because of all the critical drops. I thought Chandler was a good signing because of his play against the Patriots as a Bill but he really played poorly this season and I think they need to go get a viable #2 that Brady can trust. I would go after Dwayne Allen in free agency and keep an eye on Marcellus Bennett who is likely to be cut by Chicago.

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Dwayne Allen has upside but seems slightly "injury-prone". Bennett has been a productive player but I think he has had locker room issues, not sure about the fit? Then again BB can make most players conform to the system while they're here. Deus suggested Jermaine Gresham in the other thread and I really like that idea as a meeting point between a player who shouldn't cost much but will be reliable.

Because Scott Chandler is already 30 and has carried over a lot of the same issues he had in Buffalo (biggest one being stone hands), there really isn't any room for further improvements. Instead of wasting a roster spot BB should instead just cut his losses and give someone else a chance, such as Dwayne Allen or AJ Derby.

Ross12 said:

Dwayne Allen has upside but seems slightly "injury-prone". Bennett has been a productive player but I think he has had locker room issues, not sure about the fit? Then again BB can make most players conform to the system while they're here. Deus suggested Jermaine Gresham in the other thread and I really like that idea as a meeting point between a player who shouldn't cost much but will be reliable.

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Agree on Gresham. His hands aren't much better than Chandler's but he's durable and a good blocker.

Scott Chandler was the Patriots TE3 this year, in terms of snap count.

Gronk - 934
Williams - 445
Chandler - 377

Williams also had more snaps against both Denver and K.C. in the playoffs.

Flash said:

Because Scott Chandler is already 30 and has carried over a lot of the same issues he had in Buffalo (biggest one being stone hands), there really isn't any room for further improvements. Instead of wasting a roster spot BB should instead just cut his losses and give someone else a chance, such as Dwayne Allen or AJ Derby.



Agree on Gresham. His hands aren't much better than Chandler's but he's durable and a good blocker.

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If his hands are as bad as Chandlers then Brady won't trust him either. They need a reliable target Brady can trust.

Looked this up the other day

#2 TEs

Zach Miller
34 rec (46 tar)
439 yards
5 TD
(Most of his production is from M.Bennett the #1 TE missing 5 games)

Ladarius Green
37 rec (63 tar)
429 yads
4 TD
(Like Miller his production could be attributed to the #1 TE A.Gates missing 5 games)

Brent Celek
27 rec (35 tar)
398 yards
3 TD

Mychal Rivera
32 rec (46 tar)
280 yards
1 TD
(Clive Walford saw 28 rec on 51 tar for 329 3 TD. Yet if you add Walford and Rivera's targets together Gronk saw 23 more targets than them combined. So it could be argued Walford and Rivera were more #1A and #1B instead of #1 and #2 TE)

Maxx Williams
32 rec (47 tar)
268 yards
1 TD
(Like Miller and Green's production it could be argued Williams production was due to to the guy in front of him C.Gilmore missing 5 games)

Scott Chandler
23 rec (42 tar)
259 yards
4 TD


Really the only guy I'd see being worth it to bring in as a #2 over Chandler is Celek, Ertz the #1 TE saw 112 targets and played 15 games But Celek just got extended... And the only difference between Chandler and Celek is Celek had a 134 yard game against the dolphins


People have it in their minds that the #2 TE needs to produce like hernandez did, except hernandez best year he was the #3 target behind Welker and Gronk and there was absolutely no production from the RBs in the receiving game, Woodhead and BJGE had 27 rec combined for 300 yards 0 TD ... You know what RBs contributed this year: 100 rec for 1040 yards 9 TD. In '12 the bulk of hernandez production came when Gronk got injured

Ball can only go around so much.....

Also maybe they don't even have to go get someone, they could cut Chandler save the $2m in space and use it somewhere else and let AJ Derby be the #2 receiving TE. Because IMO if they do get rid of Chandler and get someone else that guy is going to put up similar numbers to what Chandler did if Gronk plays 14-16 games

Ivan said:

If his hands are as bad as Chandlers then Brady won't trust him either. They need a reliable target Brady can trust.

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The point of bringing in Gresham isn't so that he becomes a reliable target for Brady. He's one of the better blockers in the NFL and we sign him to a cheap contract for his blocking. Scott Chandler is neither a good blocker nor a good receiver. We use the money we spend on Scott Chandler instead for Gresham who is better at blocking and slightly better at catching the ball.

JMC00 said:

Looked this up the other day

#2 TEs

Zach Miller
34 rec (46 tar)
439 yards
5 TD
(Most of his production is from M.Bennett the #1 TE missing 5 games)

Ladarius Green
37 rec (63 tar)
429 yads
4 TD
(Like Miller his production could be attributed to the #1 TE A.Gates missing 5 games)

Brent Celek
27 rec (35 tar)
398 yards
3 TD

Mychal Rivera
32 rec (46 tar)
280 yards
1 TD
(Clive Walford saw 28 rec on 51 tar for 329 3 TD. Yet if you add Walford and Rivera's targets together Gronk saw 23 more targets than them combined. So it could be argued Walford and Rivera were more #1A and #1B instead of #1 and #2 TE)

Maxx Williams
32 rec (47 tar)
268 yards
1 TD
(Like Miller and Green's production it could be argued Williams production was due to to the guy in front of him C.Gilmore missing 5 games)

Scott Chandler
23 rec (42 tar)
259 yards
4 TD


Really the only guy I'd see being worth it to bring in as a #2 over Chandler is Celek, Ertz the #1 TE saw 112 targets and played 15 games But Celek just got extended... And the only difference between Chandler and Celek is Celek had a 134 yard game against the dolphins


People have it in their minds that the #2 TE needs to produce like hernandez did, except hernandez best year he was the #3 target behind Welker and Gronk and there was absolutely no production from the RBs in the receiving game, Woodhead and BJGE had 27 rec combined for 300 yards 0 TD ... You know what RBs contributed this year: 100 rec for 1040 yards 9 TD. In '12 the bulk of hernandez production came when Gronk got injured

Ball can only go around so much.....

Also maybe they don't even have to go get someone, they could cut Chandler save the $2m in space and use it somewhere else and let AJ Derby be the #2 receiving TE. Because IMO if they do get rid of Chandler and get someone else that guy is going to put up similar numbers to what Chandler did if Gronk plays 14-16 games

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Ball is going to go to guys who are productive when given the opportunity to produce, the offense will adjust.Chandler stunk when he was out there, so his opportunities dwindled but who knows, maybe if it was Allen or someone else, they would have used TE2 more in the passing game and maybe he'd have 600 yards, 7-8 TD's. If they had had a couple of young WRs ready to step up, the WRs would have gotten some of those 100 RB receptions. RBs got so many receptions largely because of the lack of productive options at the WR/TE positions past Gronk, Edelman and maybe Amendola. Better depth is needed at both positions. The ball will go to guys who make plays.

Eh. He was so damn disappointing to me I sort of hate him now.

Armchair Quarterback said:

Ball is going to go to guys who are productive when given the opportunity to produce, the offense will adjust.Chandler stunk when he was out there, so his opportunities dwindled but who knows, maybe if it was Allen or someone else, they would have used TE2 more in the passing game and maybe he'd have 600 yards, 7-8 TD's. If they had had a couple of young WRs ready to step up, the WRs would have gotten some of those 100 RB receptions. RBs got so many receptions largely because of the lack of productive options at the WR/TE positions past Gronk, Edelman and maybe Amendola. Better depth is needed at both positions. The ball will go to guys who make plays.

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There is no #2 TE that is going to get 600 yards in this offense when Edelman, Gronk, Lewis and whoever the outside WR is are healthy... Just not gonna happen...

Have a hard time thinking Dwayne Allen is going to have a 600 yard year in this offense when he doesn't have 600 yards in the last 2 years combined..

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

But I like cutting. It makes me feel alive.

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Ron Swanson approves

JMC00 said:

There is no #2 TE that is going to get 600 yards in this offense when Edelman, Gronk, Lewis and whoever the outside WR is are healthy... Just not gonna happen...

Have a hard time thinking Dwayne Allen is going to have a 600 yard year in this offense when he doesn't have 600 yards in the last 2 years combined..

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Point is there is Gronk and there is Edelman and then not a whole lot else. Lewis was nice but he is extremely injury prone and can't be counted on to produce the way he did the beginning of last year. If the Pats add a quality TE2, or a 3 down RB, or a solid WR, they'll get targets and if they produce when they get the targets, they'll get more. The TE2's ceiling in this offense, isn't limited to what Chandler put up. 600 yards is just a made up number meant to suggest that if the TE2 produced when on the field the TE2 output would have been more.

The 2012 Pats offense consisted of :
Ridley 1263 yards rushing
Welker's 1354 yards receiving
Lloyd's 911 yards receiving
Gronk's 790 receiving yards
Hernandez's 483 yards receiving
Woodhead 747 yards combined rushing and receiving
Vereen 400 yards combined rushing and receiving

Plus an additional 285 for Bolden, 280 for Edelman, 145 for Branch, 109 for Hooman, 85 for Wells, 63 for Stallworth and 12 for Winslow. 9 NE players had over 400 yards in 2013.

And you don't think the #4 or 5 option could produce 600 yards?

Armchair Quarterback said:

Point is there is Gronk and there is Edelman and then not a whole lot else. Lewis was nice but he is extremely injury prone and can't be counted on to produce the way he did the beginning of last year. If the Pats add a quality TE2, or a 3 down RB, or a solid WR, they'll get targets and if they produce when they get the targets, they'll get more. The TE2's ceiling in this offense, isn't limited to what Chandler put up. 600 yards is just a made up number meant to suggest that if the TE2 produced when on the field the TE2 output would have been more.

The 2012 Pats offense consisted of :
Ridley 1263 yards rushing
Welker's 1354 yards receiving
Lloyd's 911 yards receiving
Gronk's 790 receiving yards
Hernandez's 483 yards receiving
Woodhead 747 yards combined rushing and receiving
Vereen 400 yards combined rushing and receiving

Plus an additional 285 for Bolden, 280 for Edelman, 145 for Branch, 109 for Hooman, 85 for Wells, 63 for Stallworth and 12 for Winslow. 9 NE players had over 400 yards in 2013.

And you don't think the #4 or 5 option could produce 600 yards?

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The 2012 offense didn't have a #3 WR. I reject that approach out of hand. IMHO, the top target in our system are TE, WR, WR, RB, and WR. You can choose to change our offense and rely on a TE playing WR, as was the case in 2012. I don't recommend that approach

We have Edelman, Amendola, LaFell, and Martin. If these players are upgrade, that's fine. But, I would never want Brady to be to 2 WR's, with the second being the quality of Lloyd.

mgteich said:

The 2012 offense didn't have a #3 WR. I reject that approach out of hand. IMHO, the top target in our system are TE, WR, WR, RB, and WR. You can choose to change our offense and rely on a TE playing WR, as was the case in 2012. I don't recommend that approach

We have Edelman, Amendola, LaFell, and Martin. If these players are upgrade, that's fine. But, I would never want Brady to be to 2 WR's, with the second being the quality of Lloyd.

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Wasn't a fan of Lloyd, mainly because he played soft but I don't see Lafell as all that much better, if at all as WR2, especially after this past year. Amendola and Lafell are not guaranteed to be back and Martin is a fringe player at this point.

mgteich said:

IMHO, the top target in our system are TE, WR, WR, RB, and WR.

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That is clearly personnel based. When the team had 2 legit TE1s, we saw that target group change to

Slot WR
TE
TE

And then

Slot WR
TE
OWR
TE

Armchair Quarterback said:

Wasn't a fan of Lloyd, mainly because he played soft but I don't see Lafell as all that much better, if at all as WR2, especially after this past year. Amendola and Lafell are not guaranteed to be back and Martin is a fringe player at this point.

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I agree that LaFell can be compared to Lloyd and that Belichick is likely to seek an upgrade.

I would note that we have LaFell AND Amendola.

IMHO, if we wish to compare with 2012, the issue isn't receivers. We NEED a running back or two.

mgteich said:

IMHO, the top target in our system are TE, WR, WR, RB, and WR.

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That's not correct. It's been personnel based from the beginning. Once the team had its 2 TE1 grouping that BB had been looking for, it went

Welker
Hernandez
Gronk
Woodhead
OWR (Moss trade year)

then

Welker
Gronk
Hernandez
Branch

then

Welker
Lloyd (Gronk missed 5 games and Hernandez missed 6)
Gronk
Hernandez
Woodhead

then

TE1b goes to jail

So, when they had the viable 2TE attack, the TEs were #2 and #3 in targets and catches, when healthy, behind only Welker.