Official Niners @ Pats postgame thread

Deus Irae · Dec 17, 2012

sevengables_2207 said:
It was very close, but NBC had one angle where it looked like the ball grazed off of Ginn's foot and changed directions. Can someone explain to me why Hochuli is such an epic failure at interpretations? I thought for some reason that he said initially that the Patriots recovered but there was a holding call on them (Patriots). Then, when the mess was sorted out, they (refs) seemingly reversed the ruling of a recovery and changed the penalty from the Patriots to the Niners.

If someone could clarify this series of events, it would be much obliged.

Punt
ball not touched
Patriots downed ball

The problem came in with the "illegal touching" call that Hochuli was talking about. There was no illegal touching.

Ninerfan · Dec 17, 2012

Wow, what a game. Quite the emotional rollercoaster.

I really thought the Pats were going to win when they tied it up. That kickoff return was so important. I hope the NFL remembers that kickoffs can turn momentum and have a direct impact on the game when they consider eliminating them.

I'll just give a couple of quick thoughts:

1. Tom Brady is the man. I don't think I've seen anyone shred the niners D like that recently. He had them gassed and made them pay.

2. I feel like every week I can lament officiating in this league. One of my pet peeves is how they call pass interference. Its just too inconsistent. But, I also understand that that is one of the hardest jobs of the officials. Don't know how the league can fix it. All I know is that was not PI on Brown on that long pass to Lloyd. And while I did not see the ball touch Ginn on the punt return, that was a cluster****.

3. I've read on here a couple of times that fans think the Pats O was off and just had a bad night. This has been a recurring theme with pretty much all good teams we play. I think it is hard for some fans to realize that the Niners D is really that good. What they did in the first half last night was Epic, and was almost overshadowed by their epic collapse. But that credit goes to Brady and co. The Niners changed their D up for some reason, and the Pats took full advantage of that. It wasn't until the Niners went back to man coverage with 6 mins left that they were able to get some more stops.

4. Great game and I hope we can see each other again in February in the Dome. Its been fun on here this week. Good luck and please don't let the Broncos get to the Super Bowl. I don't want Manning rewarded.

The Brandon Five · Dec 17, 2012

RhodyPatriot said:
Special teams play was hideous. How does a run back go for 60 yds straight down the sideline???

Easy. Holding by the return team. You know, like they called on us over and over.

sevengables_2207 · Dec 17, 2012

Finnishfan said:
The NFL pages describe that play like this:

(5:01) 14-Z.Mesko punts 42 yards to SF 20, Center-48-D.Aiken. 19-T.Ginn MUFFS catch, and recovers at SF 28. 19-T.Ginn to SF 28 for no gain (18-M.Slater).

So.... Ted Ginn recovered that ball?

This sounds like Hochuli was the one describing the play on NFL pages.

Deus Irae · Dec 17, 2012

Ninerfan said:
Wow, what a game. Quite the emotional rollercoaster.

I really thought the Pats were going to win when they tied it up. That kickoff return was so important. I hope the NFL remembers that kickoffs can turn momentum and have a direct impact on the game when they consider eliminating them.

I'll just give a couple of quick thoughts:

1. Tom Brady is the man. I don't think I've seen anyone shred the niners D like that recently. He had them gassed and made them pay.

2. I feel like every week I can lament officiating in this league. One of my pet peeves is how they call pass interference. Its just too inconsistent. But, I also understand that that is one of the hardest jobs of the officials. Don't know how the league can fix it. All I know is that was not PI on Brown on that long pass to Lloyd. And while I did not see the ball touch Ginn on the punt return, that was a cluster****.

3. I've read on here a couple of times that fans think the Pats O was off and just had a bad night. This has been a recurring theme with pretty much all good teams we play. I think it is hard for some fans to realize that the Niners D is really that good. What they did in the first half last night was Epic, and was almost overshadowed by their epic collapse. But that credit goes to Brady and co. The Niners changed their D up for some reason, and the Pats took full advantage of that. It wasn't until the Niners went back to man coverage with 6 mins left that they were able to get some more stops.

4. Great game and I hope we can see each other again in February in the Dome. Its been fun on here this week. Good luck and please don't let the Broncos get to the Super Bowl. I don't want Manning rewarded.

Just a note on point 3. Take a look at point 1 and ask yourself this:

Knowing that the 49ers don't substitute much, why didn't the Patriots come out firing to start the game? It would have slowed down the pass rush and gotten that defense gassed from the beginning. That's the sort of thing that gets people talking about an "off night".

Also, with regards to penalties, your team holds a lot, and that blatant hold by Justin Smith on Mankins is a prime example. By letting that go early, the refs set a tone for the game.

As for moving forward, enjoy the rest of the season. While we've come a long way from Rod Rust, you've come a long way from Mike Singletary. :eat3:

Kontradiction · Dec 17, 2012

Ninerfan said:
Wow, what a game. Quite the emotional rollercoaster.

I really thought the Pats were going to win when they tied it up. That kickoff return was so important. I hope the NFL remembers that kickoffs can turn momentum and have a direct impact on the game when they consider eliminating them.

I'll just give a couple of quick thoughts:

1. Tom Brady is the man. I don't think I've seen anyone shred the niners D like that recently. He had them gassed and made them pay.

2. I feel like every week I can lament officiating in this league. One of my pet peeves is how they call pass interference. Its just too inconsistent. But, I also understand that that is one of the hardest jobs of the officials. Don't know how the league can fix it. All I know is that was not PI on Brown on that long pass to Lloyd. And while I did not see the ball touch Ginn on the punt return, that was a cluster****.

3. I've read on here a couple of times that fans think the Pats O was off and just had a bad night. This has been a recurring theme with pretty much all good teams we play. I think it is hard for some fans to realize that the Niners D is really that good. What they did in the first half last night was Epic, and was almost overshadowed by their epic collapse. But that credit goes to Brady and co. The Niners changed their D up for some reason, and the Pats took full advantage of that. It wasn't until the Niners went back to man coverage with 6 mins left that they were able to get some more stops.

4. Great game and I hope we can see each other again in February in the Dome. Its been fun on here this week. Good luck and please don't let the Broncos get to the Super Bowl. I don't want Manning rewarded.

Pats offense did have an off night. Some of it was caused by the Niners, some of it was caused by the weather, some of it was caused by the coaching. But they never usually have that many turnovers nor do they usually look that ill-prepared.

sevengables_2207 · Dec 17, 2012

stcjones said:
Saw alot of different replays on this and just watched game again (tough)....ball never touched him

I saw a few as well, and it was very close IMO. There was only one angle where it looked like it did graze the leg.

sevengables_2207 · Dec 17, 2012

Deus Irae said:
Punt
ball not touched
Patriots downed ball

The problem came in with the "illegal touching" call that Hochuli was talking about. There was no illegal touching.

Thanks.

I was totally flummoxed by his (Hochuli's) initial ruling. I thought he stated that New England recovered a ball that Ginn touched, but I was mistaken thanks to his rambling explanation.

Finnishfan · Dec 17, 2012

KontradictioN said:
Pats offense did have an off night. Some of it was caused by the Niners, some of it was caused by the weather, some of it was caused by the coaching. But they never usually have that many turnovers nor do they usually look that ill-prepared.

I think this game will serve us well in the playoffs. BB got a lot of ammunition he can use in practice sessions and with this much humble pie to digest, overconfidence should not become an issue.

I just hope Ridley doesn't develop or own a habit of fumbling in big games. We really need to be able to rely on our backs.

PatsFanSince74 · Dec 17, 2012

Ninerfan said:
Wow, what a game. Quite the emotional rollercoaster.

I really thought the Pats were going to win when they tied it up. That kickoff return was so important. I hope the NFL remembers that kickoffs can turn momentum and have a direct impact on the game when they consider eliminating them.

I'll just give a couple of quick thoughts:

1. Tom Brady is the man. I don't think I've seen anyone shred the niners D like that recently. He had them gassed and made them pay.

2. I feel like every week I can lament officiating in this league. One of my pet peeves is how they call pass interference. Its just too inconsistent. But, I also understand that that is one of the hardest jobs of the officials. Don't know how the league can fix it. All I know is that was not PI on Brown on that long pass to Lloyd. And while I did not see the ball touch Ginn on the punt return, that was a cluster****.

3. I've read on here a couple of times that fans think the Pats O was off and just had a bad night. This has been a recurring theme with pretty much all good teams we play. I think it is hard for some fans to realize that the Niners D is really that good. What they did in the first half last night was Epic, and was almost overshadowed by their epic collapse. But that credit goes to Brady and co. The Niners changed their D up for some reason, and the Pats took full advantage of that. It wasn't until the Niners went back to man coverage with 6 mins left that they were able to get some more stops.

4. Great game and I hope we can see each other again in February in the Dome. Its been fun on here this week. Good luck and please don't let the Broncos get to the Super Bowl. I don't want Manning rewarded.

Thanks for your polite and thoughtful post.

As folks out here know, I'm not big on making excuses when we get beat, so I won't do so here. You can't turn the ball over four times and expect to win in the NFL, whether the team you're playing is 2--10 or 10--2. Period. You played better. You won. We lost.

I also don't think the Pats' O was "off" or "had a bad night." I just plain don't think they came ready to play a very good team. That's not "off," that's unfocused and unprepared; if they were "off" or "had a bad night," they wouldn't have been able to put up 34 points on what is arguably the best D in the NFL. By the time they got focused, it was too late and then the ST unit gave up a backbreaking, 60+ yard KO return after the Offense somehow climbed the mountain to tie the game.

If I'm a 'niners fan, I feel very good about the outcome, but I don't feel good that my team didn't put the Pats away in the first 20 minutes of play. You guys should have been up by three TD's at the break but didn't execute; I don't give our D the credit because it sucked. The score shouldn't have been 31--3, it should have been 38- or 45-3.

Let me put it this way. We blew out Houston last week and lost last night, by one score, a game that should have been over before the fourth quarter began. I can't explain it rationally, but somehow I'm more concerned about meeting Houston in the Playoffs than the 'niners.

ThatllMoveTheChains!!! · Dec 17, 2012

Anyone else get the feeling that the 49ers are turning into the Ravens West?

chicowalker · Dec 17, 2012

Deus Irae said:
Punt
ball not touched
Patriots downed ball

The problem came in with the "illegal touching" call that Hochuli was talking about. There was no illegal touching.

The illegal touching was the Pats touching the ball -- technically it's called a penalty, though no yardage is assessed. He shouldn't have described it that way, though, since we're all accustomed to seeing punting teams down the ball and not hearing anything about a "penalty."

PatsFanNM · Dec 17, 2012

Deus Irae said:
Punt
ball not touched
Patriots downed ball

The problem came in with the "illegal touching" call that Hochuli was talking about. There was no illegal touching.

There was one replay that convincingly showed the ball bouncing up in the air, coming down on Ginn's shoe, then bouncing up in the air again. Nothing in the way the ball was moving would have led to it going up in the air again without bouncing off something, and the only thing it could have bounced off of was Ginn's shoe; it definitely did not hit the ground.

That's what I saw looking at it on a frame-by-frame basis. It's possible Hochuli didn't have that particular angle, or it's possible they only do it in slow motion, rather than frame-by-frame. If he did have that available, and still came up with the decision he came up with, it was the wrong decision.

Nothing that can be done now, obviously. It could have been a big turning point in the game.

There are always a lot of calls that go for or against you. The ones that bothered me the most were several non-PI calls where Welker was basically tackled by the defensive guy before the ball arrived, and where he was held/illegally contacted prior to the first interception. Couldn't understand either of those.

But what can you do? The Pats didn't play well enough, everyone can agree on that.

Uncle Rico · Dec 17, 2012

chicowalker said:
The illegal touching was the Pats touching the ball -- technically it's called a penalty, though no yardage is assessed. He shouldn't have described it that way, though, since we're all accustomed to seeing punting teams down the ball and not hearing anything about a "penalty."

Yes, this is what I was thinking. Isn't every punt downed by the punting team technically "illegal touching"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_(gridiron_football)

Edit: I see Deus has a link to the NFL rule and a much better explanation of the rule below. Thanks.

Deus Irae · Dec 17, 2012

PatsFanNM said:
There was one replay that convincingly showed the ball bouncing up in the air, coming down on Ginn's shoe, then bouncing up in the air again...

No, there wasn't. There was a blurry close up that didn't show anything unless you wanted to see what wasn't there. On the other hand, there was a replay that showed plainly that it didn't touch Ginn's leg at all, and a replay that showed that his hand never touched the ball.

Deus Irae · Dec 17, 2012

chicowalker said:
The illegal touching was the Pats touching the ball -- technically it's called a penalty, though no yardage is assessed. He shouldn't have described it that way, though, since we're all accustomed to seeing punting teams down the ball and not hearing anything about a "penalty."

Downing the ball is not a penalty, although they frame it as one. It's a hazy penalty/non-penalty which is really just the end of the play so that the officials know where to spot the ball. I know that I'm basically repeating what you wrote, but I wanted the posts so that I could cite to the rule:

Any member of the punting team may down the ball anywhere in the field of play. However, it is illegal touching (Official’s time out and receiver’s ball at spot of illegal touching). This foul does not offset any foul by receivers during the down.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/kicksfromscrimmage

Essentially, the NFL put it in as a "foul" because they didn't have another category for it.

ivanvamp · Dec 17, 2012

Deus Irae said:
Punt
ball not touched
Patriots downed ball

The problem came in with the "illegal touching" call that Hochuli was talking about. There was no illegal touching.

Thank you. I was wondering that myself. The kicking team has the right to be the first ones to touch a punt - it happens all the time when downing a ball inside the 10. No 49er was going for it once it got by Ginn, so a Pats' player has every legal right to get it.

Like most everyone else, I was totally confused by what the refs saw and called on that play.

Ivan · Dec 17, 2012

sevengables_2207 said:
Thanks.

I was totally flummoxed by his (Hochuli's) initial ruling. I thought he stated that New England recovered a ball that Ginn touched, but I was mistaken thanks to his rambling explanation.

I dread having Hochuli ref any game the Patriots are in. He really thinks he is the star of every game he does and comes up with ridiculously contorted rulings in every game he refs. In short, he sucks, can't wait until he retires.

*I don't believe he cost them the game in any way i just think Refs should be as innocuous as possible and he is openly looking for glory.

stcjones · Dec 17, 2012

KontradictioN said:
Pats offense did have an off night. Some of it was caused by the Niners, some of it was caused by the weather, some of it was caused by the coaching. But they never usually have that many turnovers nor do they usually look that ill-prepared.

Most of it was caused by the team not executing the plays, turning OVER the ball repeatedly, and initially coming out with NO fire.

ivanvamp · Dec 17, 2012

PatsFanSince74 said:
I also don't think the Pats' O was "off" or "had a bad night." I just plain don't think they came ready to play a very good team. That's not "off," that's unfocused and unprepared; if they were "off" or "had a bad night," they wouldn't have been able to put up 34 points on what is arguably the best D in the NFL. By the time they got focused, it was too late and then the ST unit gave up a backbreaking, 60+ yard KO return after the Offense somehow climbed the mountain to tie the game.

The Pats' offense struggled early, but let's remember that a game is 60 minutes long. The Pats ran 92 freaking plays, racked up 520 total yards, and scored 34 points against the league's #1 defense. Their average starting field position was horrible (average starting point: NE's 19.6 yard line), so they always had the length of the field to go.

All that in horrible weather conditions.

If 520 yards, 34 points, and 92 plays against the league's #1 defense under those conditions is an "off" night, holy smokes.

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