Is McCourty going to be a full time Safety in 2012?

BradyManny · Apr 24, 2012

patsfaninpittsburgh said:
Do you think that the fact Bodden and Dowling were lost during the course of the year had anything to do with a street-free agent?

BB does adhere to the "you can never have too many good CB's" concept. However, losing 2 of the 3 top CB's is excessive even with this concept.

No, of course, I don't blame Belichick for Bodden and McCourty sucking. The CB depth was fine going into the year, we all thought so, at least. Belichick's a coach, not Nostradamus.

BradyManny · Apr 24, 2012

patsfaninpittsburgh said:
".......had one of the worst seasons ever by a cornerback."

".......his 2011 wasn't as bad."

"Statistical" does provide clarity.

I'm sorry - what can I say? Not every is black & white. I know that you have had trouble grasping that in the past.

Ring 6 · Apr 24, 2012

BradyManny said:
Can I ask you, do you honestly believe McCourty's switch to safety had nothing to do with his play at corner?

He wasn't switched to safety. He was the #1 corner, that is the LCB all season. At teh end of the year he played S in sub package. There really isn't anything to indicate that was due to his play.

Because I'm willing to admit that obviously the safety play of Ihedigbo had something to do with it.

Awful gracious of you to be willing to admit reality

And both issues were factors. And that McCourty might even be a good fit for FS going forward.

If McCourty was playing safety because someone else was better at corner, he would not have started at corner and played it full time in the base.

I'm not arguing that charting CB stats is a science,

Yes you actually are. You called it a FACT

and things like FootballOutsiders (and especially PFF) need to be taken with a grain of salt. But when charting stats point to him sucking, and it looked like he sucked on tape, and he played less corner at the end of the year - I think we can come to a certain conclusion.

Or you could study his play, like I did and come ot the correct one.

Ring 6 · Apr 24, 2012

patsinthesnow said:
IMO Mccourty needs to fix more than just the deep ball/trail technique, he sucked last year. He improved somewhat in the playoffs, but still gave up 7 catches for 60 yards in the SB, alot of them on slant routes.

You think that 60 yards allowed by a corner is a terrible game? Really?

PATRIOTSFANINPA · Apr 24, 2012

I don't remember where I saw it,but I read a statistic that showed that McCourty was the highest or near the highest cornerback in the league that opposing teams targeted.

I assume every team the Pats faced didn't think McCourty was any good in 2011...If you are good or even mediocre then you won't be amongst the top picked on CBs in the league.

In 2012 Will McCourty revert back to 2010?,or was he a flash in the pan as a rookie that teams watched carefully on film and quickly figured him out?

If he indeed is named a Safety and the team gets a veteran or rookie to take his place then we will surely know that Belichick sees him as a much better fit at S based on this years training camp where Devin's fate on his position on defense awaits.

patsfaninpittsburgh · Apr 24, 2012

BradyManny said:
I'm sorry - what can I say? Not every is black & white. I know that you have had trouble grasping that in the past.

Two sentences...that completely contradict each other is about as black and white as it gets.

Pointing that out was charity.

Someone else should be over in the corner with that pointy hat on.

supafly · Apr 24, 2012

patsfaninpittsburgh said:
Someone else should be over in the corner with that pointy hat on.

Thank God. I've been getting bored over here, I could use some company

supafly · Apr 24, 2012

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:
I don't remember where I saw it,but I read a statistic that showed that McCourty was the highest or near the highest cornerback in the league that opposing teams targeted.

I assume every team the Pats faced didn't think McCourty was any good in 2011...If you are good or even mediocre then you won't be amongst the top picked on CBs in the league.

In 2012 Will McCourty revert back to 2010?,or was he a flash in the pan as a rookie that teams watched carefully on film and quickly figured him out?

If he indeed is named a Safety and the team gets a veteran or rookie to take his place then we will surely know that Belichick sees him as a much better fit at S based on this years training camp where Devin's fate on his position on defense awaits.

I pointed it out earlier in the thread, and it's pure speculation, but there is the possibility that Belichick put McCourty in the role of safety during subpackages to try and 'help' him in some form by seeing things from a differing position.

In other words, it may help his play at his natural position of CB since he is now more aware of where the safety is supposed to be, and what the specific responsibilities are, thus showing him how to better approach the CB position.

I think DMcC is a CB, pure and simple. He seems to have some of the attributes that a CB should have, not a safety. That said, I could still see the possibility of Belichick moving him over there in passing situations/subpackages still, at least until the base safety responds better or gets a feel for the responsibilities and the scheme (especially if it is a rookie draft pick).

I do not see Devin McCourty becoming a full time safety though.

Fantomex · Apr 24, 2012

AndyJohnson said:
You think that 60 yards allowed by a corner is a terrible game? Really?

Yes. Over a 16 game season, that'd come out to be 960 yards of offense allowed against that defensive back. Last year, that would have been the third worst season by a cornerback based on that measurement. He was actually slightly worse than that with 1004 yards allowed, good for second worst in the league. He also allowed a quarterback rating of 106.2, good for 8th worst in the league.

I understand that 60 yards doesn't sound like a lot, but when you put it in perspective over the course of an entire season, it looks bad.

I do realize that stats don't tell the whole story, but if there's a positive way to spin that, I'd love to hear it.

Ring 6 · Apr 24, 2012

Fantomex said:
Yes. Over a 16 game season, that'd come out to be 960 yards of offense allowed against that defensive back.
Last year, that would have been the third worst season by a cornerback based on that measurement.

Based on WHAT measurement? There is no stat for yards allowed by a corner.
But it doesn't take a lot of thought to recognize that teams are throwing for 4000 yards and most of it is to WRs or in CB zones. To think that a WR gaining 1000 yards in a season vs a corner is a terrible job by the corner is ridiculous.

He was actually slightly worse than that with 1004 yards allowed, good for second worst in the league. He also allowed a quarterback rating of 106.2, good for 8th worst in the league.

Oh boy, here we go with ProFootballFocus stats calculated by people watching a TV feed who know nothing about football.

I understand that 60 yards doesn't sound like a lot, but when you put it in perspective over the course of an entire season, it looks bad.

No, it really doesnt. Receivers routinely put up 1000 yards.

I do realize that stats don't tell the whole story, but if there's a positive way to spin that, I'd love to hear it.

There is no spin. Its a ficitcious stat.
My point all along (and Ive said this since December) is that Mccourty had somewhere around 8 plays where he was beaten on a go route or double move where he played the trail technique, that were essentially identical to plays in 2010 where he closed on the ball and broke it up or picked it off.
Those 8 or so plays are all that people remember and they are killing his entire performance over it. Take those out and your stats (for what they are worth) change dramatically. That one facet of the game is 40-50% of the yards receivers gained on him.
I don't think sucking on 8 or so plays in a season means you sucked for the other 900, when he actually played well.
It doesn't mean those plays didn't exist it means for 900 or so plays he was the same guy as 2010 and for those handful he was excellent in 2010 and awful in 2011. People are making it out to be that he was a totally different player, and the facts just don't support that.
What was probably oneof his biggest strengths in 2010 (trail technique up the sideline) was his biggest weakness in 2011.
Its sad that people who don't have the energy to really look into their first impression have decided to ignore this fact and pretend his play was something different than it was.
If you want to say those 8 plays are the difference between allpro and sucking, go ahead. I just find that very short sighted, and the fact that the trashers won't admit that is the difference is equally sad.

Mystery Pats Fan · Apr 24, 2012

Fantomex said:
Yes. Over a 16 game season, that'd come out to be 960 yards of offense allowed against that defensive back. Last year, that would have been the third worst season by a cornerback based on that measurement. He was actually slightly worse than that with 1004 yards allowed, good for second worst in the league. He also allowed a quarterback rating of 106.2, good for 8th worst in the league.

I understand that 60 yards doesn't sound like a lot, but when you put it in perspective over the course of an entire season, it looks bad.

I do realize that stats don't tell the whole story, but if there's a positive way to spin that, I'd love to hear it.

Yards given up against a certain player is a number on a piece of paper. It doesnt break it down to how many of those yards were given up late in the 4th quarter of a game when your team is ahead 45-7.

And that is just one example as to how numbers can be skewed to look worse, or better, than they really are.

Ron Sellers · Apr 24, 2012

McCourty did not have a good year in 2011, but it was exacerbated by the pitiful lack of safety help he and all the corners received. In addition the coaching staff inexplicably decided to make a relatively big change (moving him up to closer to the line in more of a press coverage) despite having zero opportunity to work on that technique during the summer due to the lockout.

It wouldn't bother me if the Pats moved McCourty to safety, but it seems like a wiser choice would be to work with him during a full season of OTAs and make that decision some time during training camp - not in April.

patsfaninpittsburgh · Apr 24, 2012

AndyJohnson said:
Based on WHAT measurement? There is no stat for yards allowed by a corner.
But it doesn't take a lot of thought to recognize that teams are throwing for 4000 yards and most of it is to WRs or in CB zones. To think that a WR gaining 1000 yards in a season vs a corner is a terrible job by the corner is ridiculous.

Oh boy, here we go with ProFootballFocus stats calculated by people watching a TV feed who know nothing about football.

No, it really doesnt. Receivers routinely put up 1000 yards.

There is no spin. Its a ficitcious stat.
My point all along (and Ive said this since December) is that Mccourty had somewhere around 8 plays where he was beaten on a go route or double move where he played the trail technique, that were essentially identical to plays in 2010 where he closed on the ball and broke it up or picked it off.
Those 8 or so plays are all that people remember and they are killing his entire performance over it. Take those out and your stats (for what they are worth) change dramatically. That one facet of the game is 40-50% of the yards receivers gained on him.
I don't think sucking on 8 or so plays in a season means you sucked for the other 900, when he actually played well.
It doesn't mean those plays didn't exist it means for 900 or so plays he was the same guy as 2010 and for those handful he was excellent in 2010 and awful in 2011. People are making it out to be that he was a totally different player, and the facts just don't support that.
What was probably oneof his biggest strengths in 2010 (trail technique up the sideline) was his biggest weakness in 2011.
Its sad that people who don't have the energy to really look into their first impression have decided to ignore this fact and pretend his play was something different than it was.
If you want to say those 8 plays are the difference between allpro and sucking, go ahead. I just find that very short sighted, and the fact that the trashers won't admit that is the difference is equally sad.

The debate is even more fundamental.

If you think that a "career day" for a QB consists of putting up hundreds of yards down 2 or 3 TD in the 4th quarter is valid....then all these "stats" mean alot.

Ring 6 · Apr 24, 2012

patsfaninpittsburgh said:
The debate is even more fundamental.

If you think that a "career day" for a QB consists of putting up hundreds of yards down 2 or 3 TD in the 4th quarter is valid....then all these "stats" mean alot.

Sure, but McCourty definitely was beaten on plays, ones that he easily defended in 2010. The sideline go or out and up was a play he owned the QB on in 2010, baiting a throw and closing on it. In 2011, he didn't close and was beaten a handful of times.
Now those are certainly important plays, and the end result is a big difference in his overall play. You cant trade 5 picks and 3 breakups for 8 30+ passes and not consider that a big deal.
However, aside from that part of his game, he played very similar to 2010.
If he doesn't correct the deficient area, he is going to have trouble, but I am confident the skill is there, and whatever cropped up last year will be corrected, and he is back to a top 5 corner.

As far as the 'stats', there are a plethora of issues with them.
1) They are gathered by a company that admits to laking football knowledge
2) Even with football knowledge it is often impossible to 'charge' a catch to a player without knowing the defensive call. In fact, in zone coverage most completions are in the seams of the zone.
3) There is no agreed upon method of calculating these stats
4) There is no data base to compare these stats to in order to assess good or bad
5) As you said, prevent defenses would drastically cause these numbers to soar, when the corner is only doing his job and keeping the play in fromt of him.
6) It is also often impossible to judge who blew a coverage, whether the corner was expecting safety help, whether the linebacker did his job in the underneath zone, and whether or not there was a pass rush.

I could go on.

Fantomex · Apr 24, 2012

AndyJohnson said:
Based on WHAT measurement? There is no stat for yards allowed by a corner.
But it doesn't take a lot of thought to recognize that teams are throwing for 4000 yards and most of it is to WRs or in CB zones. To think that a WR gaining 1000 yards in a season vs a corner is a terrible job by the corner is ridiculous.

Well, only two cornerbacks in the entire NFL allowed 1000 yards receiving last year. Devin McCourty was one of them. Most people think he had a bad year. He was moved to safety late in the year. It's really neat that you want to defend him, but numbers don't lie.

AndyJohnson said:
Oh boy, here we go with ProFootballFocus stats calculated by people watching a TV feed who know nothing about football.

Oh boy. Here's where you imply that I'm not a real football fan because numbers can, and often do, correlate to play on the field. Awesome.

AndyJohnson said:
No, it really doesnt. Receivers routinely put up 1000 yards.

And yet only two cornerbacks gave up over 1000 yards last season. Huh.

AndyJohnson said:
There is no spin. Its a ficitcious stat.

What does this even mean? Because it's not a stat tracked by Stats, Inc. or whoever, the information is irrelevant? Or is it just the information you don't like because it doesn't support your position?

AndyJohnson said:
Its sad that people who don't have the energy to really look into their first impression have decided to ignore this fact and pretend his play was something different than it was.
If you want to say those 8 plays are the difference between allpro and sucking, go ahead. I just find that very short sighted, and the fact that the trashers won't admit that is the difference is equally sad.

Sorry, but I don't believe you. If you want to put together a video montage of every defensive snap McCourty played last year, go right ahead. Prove your point. Be sure to point out the very few plays which were the difference between All-Pro and sucking. It's sad that people want to cling to their beliefs so badly that they're willfully ignorant in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Ring 6 · Apr 24, 2012

Fantomex said:
Well, only two cornerbacks in the entire NFL allowed 1000 yards receiving last year. Devin McCourty was one of them. Most people think he had a bad year. He was moved to safety late in the year. It's really neat that you want to defend him, but numbers don't lie.

Of course they lie, because you are using numbers that are tremendously flawed.
He was 'moved to safety' he played S in sub packages.
I am not 'defending' anyone, I am telling you what I saw when I studied his play. You are telling me what some guys who admit they know nothing about football counted up by trying to guess from a TV feed who to charge pass receptions to on defense.

Oh boy. Here's where you imply that I'm not a real football fan because numbers can, and often do, correlate to play on the field. Awesome.

You are using stats from a well known flawed source, that actually admits to its own failings. Good luck with that. Numnbers that are made up correlate to nothing.

And yet only two cornerbacks gave up over 1000 yards last season. Huh.

See above, that is bs.

What does this even mean? Because it's not a stat tracked by Stats, Inc. or whoever, the information is irrelevant? Or is it just the information you don't like because it doesn't support your position?

It comes from people who admittedly are not football people. It is 'analyzed' from TV feeds.
This source rated Tom Brady the 30th best player in 2010 when he was the only unanimous MVP in NFL history, based upon their rating system whih rewards QBs for thrwoing Ints by being daring enough to force a pass into coverage.
You really should check up on the site you are using as your replacement for watching footballl and developing an opinion.

Sorry, but I don't believe you.

Yeah, I don't really care.

If you want to put together a video montage of every defensive snap McCourty played last year, go right ahead. Prove your point.

I have already told you what it would show you.

Be sure to point out the very few plays which were the difference between All-Pro and sucking. It's sad that people want to cling to their beliefs so badly that they're willfully ignorant in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Dude, all I can say is lighten up, drop the anger and watch some football.
Perhaps instead of going that far, you would prefer to go to your wonderful ficticious stat source, and consider this. Even a fan who apparently watches game sometimes, such as yourself would notice that McCourty had at least 5-6 of his Ints on the exact route and coverage I am talking about, and clearly had 8 such passes completed on him last year on the exact same play he was piking off or knocking down. Those plays are all 35+ yard throws. So 8 plays would add up to 350 yards or so.
That your ProFootballFocus stats and eliminate 6 Ints from 2010 and 8 completions for 350 yards from 2011 and tell me what is left. See that will show you, even with your own putrid stat source, the facts that I am talking about.

Ring 6 · Apr 25, 2012

Fantomex said:
Well, only two cornerbacks in the entire NFL allowed 1000 yards receiving last year. Devin McCourty was one of them. Most people think he had a bad year. He was moved to safety late in the year. It's really neat that you want to defend him, but numbers don't lie.

Oh boy. Here's where you imply that I'm not a real football fan because numbers can, and often do, correlate to play on the field. Awesome.

And yet only two cornerbacks gave up over 1000 yards last season. Huh.

What does this even mean? Because it's not a stat tracked by Stats, Inc. or whoever, the information is irrelevant? Or is it just the information you don't like because it doesn't support your position?

Sorry, but I don't believe you. If you want to put together a video montage of every defensive snap McCourty played last year, go right ahead. Prove your point. Be sure to point out the very few plays which were the difference between All-Pro and sucking. It's sad that people want to cling to their beliefs so badly that they're willfully ignorant in the face of evidence to the contrary.

I didn't realize you were brand new here. We run into this about every 6 months or so, where someone comes along thinking ProFootballFocus is a legitimate or valuable source.

You should read this thread right away, so you know what you are touting.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...0/764404-profootballfocus-top-101-2010-a.html

Mystery Pats Fan · Apr 25, 2012

Fantomex said:
Well, only two cornerbacks in the entire NFL allowed 1000 yards receiving last year. Devin McCourty was one of them. Most people think he had a bad year. He was moved to safety late in the year. It's really neat that you want to defend him, but numbers don't lie.

Oh boy. Here's where you imply that I'm not a real football fan because numbers can, and often do, correlate to play on the field. Awesome.

And yet only two cornerbacks gave up over 1000 yards last season. Huh.

What does this even mean? Because it's not a stat tracked by Stats, Inc. or whoever, the information is irrelevant? Or is it just the information you don't like because it doesn't support your position?

Sorry, but I don't believe you. If you want to put together a video montage of every defensive snap McCourty played last year, go right ahead. Prove your point. Be sure to point out the very few plays which were the difference between All-Pro and sucking. It's sad that people want to cling to their beliefs so badly that they're willfully ignorant in the face of evidence to the contrary.

You are not permitted to disagree with the Grand Poobah.

Ring 6 · Apr 25, 2012

Mystery Pats Fan said:
You are not permitted to disagree with the Grand Poobah.

If you are talking about me, I invite disagreement. I just have no patience for idiotic comments like you have been making or basing an argument on stats from a source that is renowned for not being credible or accurate.

I am sorry that your feelings are hurt because 95% of the board is telling you your opinions are ridiculous, but I don't know why you would think the proper reaction would be to turn into a little bltch running around making posts like this.
Someone said you were NEM, but, and I never thought I'd say this, NEM was never this obtuse.

BradyManny · Apr 25, 2012

AndyJohnson said:
As far as the 'stats', there are a plethora of issues with them.
1) They are gathered by a company that admits to laking football knowledge
2) Even with football knowledge it is often impossible to 'charge' a catch to a player without knowing the defensive call. In fact, in zone coverage most completions are in the seams of the zone.

Again, it's not just PFF who charts, but football outsiders - who has shown much better accuracy charting.

Is McCourty going to be a full time Safety in 2012?

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