DE Haloti Ngata Franchised - Thought with our two 1st round picks

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

No freaking way........ Use the #28 on Mohammed Wilkerson and he gets paid around 2-3M per year and keep the other pick it would take instead of giving up 2 picks and paying Ngata 10M per year.

use the left over money to keep mankins

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

ngata is basically another wilfork, you already have that so you don't need ngata

also the two 1st rounder compensation means a 1st in this upcoming draft and a 1st in next years, not both of your firsts this draft (unless you wanted to work out a deal with the ravens that way instead of the mandatory 1st this draft+1st next draft that going after a franchise tagged player would normally cost)

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

jcdavey said:

ngata is basically another wilfork, you already have that so you don't need ngata

also the two 1st rounder compensation means a 1st in this upcoming draft and a 1st in next years, not both of your firsts this draft (unless you wanted to work out a deal with the ravens that way instead of the mandatory 1st this draft+1st next draft that going after a franchise tagged player would normally cost)

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Well then in that case then the compensation would be less as the 1st next year is obviously worth less than our 17.

So it seems most of us say no. I actually agree with this because i think where we are drafting we have great ammo to use our picks and do what bb has the past 2 years and take our guy while setting ourselves up for future years.

In saying that i think the arguments everyone's making should be remembered when we talk about trading up for a top 5 guy (using our 17 and 28). Because Ngata is an all pro and a dominant defender in the prime of his career at a position that many of us have said is a weakness ("we need a dominant de")... but many we are unwilling to effectively trade up to get him. While others have made the relevant point... game changing defenders don't come often in the draft doesn't matter where you pick.

But we have some people saying trade up for e.g dareus/quinn/insert name here with the same amount of picks and they are all far from a sure thing and you would have to pay them a ton of money also.

Just my 2c but thats how i view alot of the talk of "lets use our 2 1sts and trade up to get X prospect". I like how BB has done and the theory he has been using so far. Trade down get many picks so you have a better chance to hit while creating value in future years.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

Ngata is invaluable to Baltimore's system so i doubt they would trade him regardless and belichick would never give up so many draft picks for a player you will have to overpay because he knows what you paid to acquire him (see Seymour in Oakland)

This draft has tremendous DL depth and the patriots have the ammunition to move into position to get practically any one of them.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

Ngata is rare and i'd give both firsts in this draft for him. So far i don't see the first round of this draft as anything special and teaming Ngata with Wilfork would give the Patriots a dominant defensive line that would force teams to double team both and free pass rushers off the edge. Imo Ngata would do more to upgrade their pass rush than any pass rusher in this draft. Like Fitzgerald, Ngata is one of those rare player you go after when there is a chance at getting them. The likelihood is slim at best even offering both firsts but i'd do it if it was possible.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

Absolutely not. The cost is prohibitive and the risk is too great. Given BB's track record in the first round, I'd feel better going out and grabbing two players than giving up the house to get one.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

townes said:

Ngata is rare and i'd give both firsts in this draft for him. So far i don't see the first round of this draft as anything special and teaming Ngata with Wilfork would give the Patriots a dominant defensive line that would force teams to double team both and free pass rushers off the edge. Imo Ngata would do more to upgrade their pass rush than any pass rusher in this draft. Like Fitzgerald, Ngata is one of those rare player you go after when there is a chance at getting them. The likelihood is slim at best even offering both firsts but i'd do it if it was possible.

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Haloti and Vince will both be breaking down from years of absorbing double teams if not done altogether in 4-5 years. Then what? Which is why you don't do it. Money is one issue, lack of draft capital to build for a competitive future is another. Their respective teams have already gotten 6-7 seasons out of these two. They may still be in their prime, but they won't be for that much longer.

Few fans saw Wilfork or Seymour or Warren or Mankins or Light as anything special pre draft. That's because fans are essentially sheep. And like the mediots they listen to they only see in hype induced sight or hindsight.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

JackBauer said:

Absolutely not. The cost is prohibitive and the risk is too great. Given BB's track record in the first round, I'd feel better going out and grabbing two players than giving up the house to get one.[/QUOTE]

BBs 1st round picks

2000-N/A
2001-Seymour
2002-Graham
2003-Warren
2004-Wilfork, Watson
2005-Mankins
2006-Maroney
2007-Merriweather
2008-Mayo
2009-N/A
2010-McCourty

I would agree that BB has done a good job of landing year 1 impact players in the 1st round. In any other year I would agree with you. However, if you believe that the team's critical needs more impact players on defense- especially stopping the run, 3rd down, red zone and pass rush as well as more game experience, then drafting kids might not be the best approach. However, if the right player is there (DT, OLB, etc) then maybe you bet on the kid contributing right away. No question that not going after Ngata is the best business decision long term.

Obviously BB needs to determine how far way the team is realistically away form winning a SB. Seeing that this is a young team and Brady has 3-5 prime years left, a case can be made to pushing all the chips to the center of the table for Ngata. There is nothing wrong with a team "going for it" as long as the long-term future isn't gambled away.

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Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

trade him even up for mankins. Throw in merriweather too.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

MoLewisrocks said:

Haloti and Vince will both be breaking down from years of absorbing double teams if not done altogether in 4-5 years. Then what? Which is why you don't do it. Money is one issue, lack of draft capital to build for a competitive future is another. Their respective teams have already gotten 6-7 seasons out of these two. They may still be in their prime, but they won't be for that much longer.

Few fans saw Wilfork or Seymour or Warren or Mankins or Light as anything special pre draft. That's because fans are essentially sheep. And like the mediots they listen to they only see in hype induced sight or hindsight.

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I'd be more than happy with 4-5 years of Wilfork and Ngata together before breaking down.

I think they have some cash they can spend and Ngata is one of the few i'd spend it on.

I agree on Warren and see him as analogous to this draft, and he's been a very good player, but many knew Wilfork was special before they drafted him and Seymour was seen as a great choice by those who wanted him over Terrell. Light was a second so he's not really in this discussion but Mankins was a late first well spent, and i loved the pick at the time they made it, however i also loved the Maroney pick so take that for what it's worth.

As for Draft capital they will still have a choice pick as first in the second round, a more valuable pick than the late first imo, counterintuitive as that may sound, but teams would have all night to make a decision and other teams will fall in love with players and want to go up and secure them, so with four picks in the second and third and the value of the #33 I think they still have plenty of value with the remaining picks. So far i don't see much distinction between the players rated as first rounders now and the following 30-40, so i don't put as much stock in the value of the first as i have other years, and trading them for a great player is worth it to me.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

I'd be willing to give up 28 and 33. No more than that.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

townes said:

I'd be more than happy with 4-5 years of Wilfork and Ngata together before breaking down.

I think they have some cash they can spend and Ngata is one of the few i'd spend it on.

I agree on Warren and see him as analogous to this draft, and he's been a very good player, but many knew Wilfork was special before they drafted him and Seymour was seen as a great choice by those who wanted him over Terrell. Light was a second so he's not really in this discussion but Mankins was a late first well spent, and i loved the pick at the time they made it, however i also loved the Maroney pick so take that for what it's worth.

As for Draft capital they will still have a choice pick as first in the second round, a more valuable pick than the late first imo, counterintuitive as that may sound, but teams would have all night to make a decision and other teams will fall in love with players and want to go up and secure them, so with four picks in the second and third and the value of the #33 I think they still have plenty of value with the remaining picks. So far i don't see much distinction between the players rated as first rounders now and the following 30-40, so i don't put as much stock in the value of the first as i have other years, and trading them for a great player is worth it to me.

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You should since this is a shallow draft because of all the juniors who came out early last year to get a shot at a non capped rookie deal. Don't want lots of day two and three picks in this draft...because the need is not for depth, it's for a couple of impact starters.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

MoLewisrocks said:

You should since this is a shallow draft because of all the juniors who came out early last year to get a shot at a non capped rookie deal. Don't want lots of day two and three picks in this draft...because the need is not for depth, it's for a couple of impact starters.

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I think last years early entries diminished the first round more than the draft as a whole, and disagree that there is more value in the first in a weak draft. I'd be less likely to make the deal if I thought there were true impact players available in this years first. I also think the #33 is more valuable than the 28th and would part with the higher pick in a deal over the #33.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

People are really under-stating how good Ngata is. He is a force up front and can change their whole defense. With him and Wilfork the Pats would own the LOS against every team. His impact would go well beyond any stats. I'd give up 2 firsts and the money for him in a heartbeat.

That said, there is no way Baltimore isn't going to re-sign him. They will pony up and pay the money because he is the key to their defense.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

MoLewisrocks said:

You should since this is a shallow draft because of all the juniors who came out early last year to get a shot at a non capped rookie deal. Don't want lots of day two and three picks in this draft...because the need is not for depth, it's for a couple of impact starters.

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I agree the need is for impact starters and that's why i'd make a deal for Ngata if it could be made. If one of their firsts turned into a player like Ngata most would see that as a great first for NE, and i'd bet most would trade both firsts if a player like Suh were at the top of this draft, so i don't see moving to get Ngata as that much different, especially given the deal Suh got.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

NE39 said:

People are really under-stating how good Ngata is. He is a force up front and can change their whole defense. With him and Wilfork the Pats would own the LOS against every team. His impact would go well beyond any stats. I'd give up 2 firsts and the money for him in a heartbeat.

That said, there is no way Baltimore isn't going to re-sign him. They will pony up and pay the money because he is the key to their defense.

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This is how i see it as well, but i'd make him an offer and force baltimore to match it so at a minimum they'd be costing the Ravens some cash if they missed out.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

NE39 said:

People are really under-stating how good Ngata is. He is a force up front and can change their whole defense. With him and Wilfork the Pats would own the LOS against every team. His impact would go well beyond any stats. I'd give up 2 firsts and the money for him in a heartbeat.

That said, there is no way Baltimore isn't going to re-sign him. They will pony up and pay the money because he is the key to their defense.

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I don't see anyone understating how good Ngata is. I see people balking at sending two first round picks given the myriad needs the Patriots have.

If it coincided with a deal for Mankins, that might change the calculus. I'd rather have two shots at getting a player like McCourty than giving them both up and big money for a single player, albeit an excellent one.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

It's a good thing we don't have Mike Ditka as our head coach...

I'd give a 1 and a 2 for Ngata and that is the absolute most I'd give.

Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

robertweathers said:

JackBauer said:

Absolutely not. The cost is prohibitive and the risk is too great. Given BB's track record in the first round, I'd feel better going out and grabbing two players than giving up the house to get one.[/QUOTE]

BBs 1st round picks

2003-Warren
2004-Wilfork, Watson
2005-Mankins
2006-Maroney
2007-Merriweather
2008-Mayo
2009-N/A
2010-McCourty

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And, BTW, given this list, wouldn't Muhammad Wilkerson be a perfect first-round pick?

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Re: Ngata Franchised - Thought with our 2 1st's

Screw Ngata, 1a/1b and outbid the Colts for Peyton Manning. Then convert him to Offensive Coordinator / backup QB.