I.M. Fletcher
2nd Team Getting Their First Start
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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.Reading this, the issue has evolved for me to this: if a highly talented rookie (1st 2 rounds, let's say) gets hurt and spends a year on IR, how much does that limit his chances? I'm not concerned as much about the lower round and UDFA's. The info above strongly suggests that ship has left port.
Dowling is the one that comes to mind. He was playing at a level that indicted the staff thought highly of him, yet just didn't seem to have the physique that could stand the punishment. In that case, it was just genetics. But what about those players for whom the injury is not an indication of things to come?
I would think that the usual pattern would continue, even if it hasn't resulted in success for a redshirted player. At some point it's going to pay off, due to the law of averages alone.
Marcus Cannon was placed on NFI in the 2011 preseason and played in the 2011 regular season.
No, that is not the point of the thread. My point is that each and every year we hear on this board the suggestion that the Patriots IR a player (usually a low-round draft pick or an UDFA) so as to red-shirt the player. I am trying to illustrate the downside of being IR'd when you are such a player.This is a confusing thread. Red shirting and IR are not one in the same and I don't think NFL teams red shirt players. an IR player settles because his injury has prevented him from being an NFL player. Other IR players try to make the team in the next season most don't make it. They are UDFA with less talent to start with so they don't make the cut, tried, got hurt, tried again and leave. Life goes on. Is this thread trying to say that teams are cheating or bastardizing the system?
No, that is not the point of the thread. My point is that each and every year we hear on this board the suggestion that the Patriots IR a player (usually a low-round draft pick or an UDFA) so as to red-shirt the player. I am trying to illustrate the downside of being IR'd when you are such a player.
More often than not players on the "Shadow Roster" end up being just that-Shadows. Never to be heard of or seen again. Very few end up being contributors.No, that is not the point of the thread. My point is that each and every year we hear on this board the suggestion that the Patriots IR a player (usually a low-round draft pick or an UDFA) so as to red-shirt the player. I am trying to illustrate the downside of being IR'd when you are such a player.
I would think that the usual pattern would continue, even if it hasn't resulted in success for a redshirted player.
I agree! And the usual pattern is that NO PLAYER IS EVER REDSHIRTED, EVER.
Of course rookies get injured, which sometimes lands them on IR. But I dare anybody to come up with a single instance where the Patriots used IR as a loophole to "stash" a player who they valued for the future but couldn't squeeze onto the 53. They just don't do that. Which makes sense, because as Miguel has illustrated it would be a stupid and counterproductive thing to do.
There is a word for those who do the same thing again and again, and expect different results.
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A man flips a coin 9 times and it comes up heads 9 times. How would you bet the next time? What is likelihood of a head or of a tail. Some would bet a lot on tails, thinking that the law of averages will catch up. Some would say that the bet is the same 50% as always. Other would bet a lot on heads, seeing the past 9 times. Where do you stand and why?
My point was that if a rookie gets injured in training camp again this year, and they believe that he can contribute in the future, they will keep him--even if that means placing him on IR
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Every player should be assessed individually, but a minor to moderate injury during one's rookie season can quickly become an IR designation in the NFL, especially if you were not expected to contribute that much in the first place.
Do you honestly believe that many of our rookie selections were taken with the idea that they would make a major impact this season? I don't. Of course, this all depends on what your personal opinion of the "MRI is fine" reports regarding players such as Jeff Demps etc, or whether or not you believe in the highly reported "Foxborough Flu." I certainly don't know for a fact one way or another, and I'm not sure why you would take such a sure stance by stating your position in all caps yourself? The truth is that there are secrets and standards that we can only speculate about.
Supafly, I believe what you're describing is the result of contractual requirements of the collective bargaining agreement. We see injured players "who were not expected to contribute" go to IR quickly before the season because they are not allowed to be cut. It's not a sign that the player is valued for the future.
I'll explain why I take such a sure stance that there is no such thing as the "Foxboro Flu": because for years now I've been looking for a single example of it, and challenging others to do the same, with no success.
Every year a rookie who fans liked goes to IR, and so the fans nod and say "Ah, the good old Foxboro Flu! Looking forward to seeing him next year, we can use him." Then the player is quietly cut in the offseason. He was never "stashed," just too injured to be waived. The Redshirt is the Bigfoot of Foxboro, with the extra twist that there's good reason to expect him to NOT exist, as Miguel has explained. Try the challenge yourself:
Find a promising Patriots rookie on the bubble who was sent to IR at final cutdowns despite no obvious major injury, and who returned to contribute to the team the following year.
I've come up empty. Meanwhile we have copious examples of promising rookies on the bubble being waived and signed to the practice squad -- or waived and signed by other teams, sometimes to Belichick's displeasure (paging Garrett Mills!). THAT is what happens to developmental prospects, not "stashing."
1.) By my count 14 rookies (Hines, Moe, Tuinei, Fisher, Ford, Mattes, Haggerty, Patterson, Chris McDonald, Grissom, Zusevics, Kamar Aiken, Anthony Rashad White, Schwab) were placed on IR before the start of the 2013 regular season. Only Mattes is on the Patriots roster now.
I think that we're closer to being in agreement than you may think, aside from the fact that I don't equate the fact that we've yet to seen a successful return with meaning that no one is ever placed on IR in the hope that he may return in the future.
I'm not disputing your opinion or Miguel's opinion (or more accurately--fact) that no one has seemed to end up contributing in the future. I am however disputing the notion that it means it's impossible to happen at some point down the line.